Detroit - Think they'll ever 'get it'?

[yaris-me]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

As far as jobs are concerned, why would anyone think that these 2 million jobs would just disappear? There is still a market there, and anyone who thinks that Toyota et al aren't going to expand to fill the gap isn't paying attention. I'm not convinced the the workers at the Big 3 plants have GM or Ford or Chrysler have the company logo tattooed on their foreheads, and would be pleased to work for other manufacturers.

When a job is lost, a new job doesn't magically appear elsewhere. It takes more capital to create a new job than it is to keep an old job going in hopes that the economy recovers. Changes can be made during the recovery, all does not remain the same.

Job loss creates other near by jobs loss'. This is like a domino effect. How would Toyota and others expand to fill that gap? More than likely they would boost production in other countries.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

]As far as jobs are concerned, why would anyone think that these 2 million jobs would just disappear? There is still a market there, and anyone who thinks that Toyota et al aren't going to expand to fill the gap isn't paying attention. I'm not convinced the the workers at the Big 3 plants have GM or Ford or Chrysler have the company logo tattooed on their foreheads, and would be pleased to work for other manufacturers.

They'd have to move to where the work is - nobody is going to build an auto plant in a brownfield. Too much aggravation with remediation costs, something I know something about since my first job out of college was in a brownfield. We had to "remediate" a toxin in the soil, arsenic, which had been banned for making glass about ten years before we set up shop. Didn't matter, we owned the property - pay.

Anyone who sets up a factory on a brownfield site, with industrial zoning, and with local government ready with their hands out, has rocks in their heads.

Most new car plants today are set up in rural areas. The taxes are low. The people have simple values, know the value of hard work and are grateful for a job in the factory, or in a support business. They will take care of business.


In contrast these old timers at GM, Ford and Chrysler are not going to take the cut in pay, the cut in benefits and will take along their "You owe me" attitude. The contrast between these guys and a typical Japanese factory worker is like night and day. I've worked in both and know it when I see it.

They sure won't like having to multitask - they might have to run a crane, fix some gear or even (gasp) run a forklilft. They're tradesmen, just ask 'em.

I'm not trying to start a contest and I do work with former UAW, UMW and other former union members. None of them relocated for a job. They will multitask, most of the time anyhow. We have a few with an attitude but they're old enough to have avoided trouble, so far anyhow.

I think expecting these dyed in the wool UAW members to move to a "right to work" state to work for a fraction of their former wages, no guaranteed benefit pension, no gold plated health benefits, and so on, is indulging in some fantasies. Expecting Toyota, Honda or some other offshore car maker to move to Detroit and recreate a GM plant is an even greater stretch of credulity. Ain't gonna happen, even with subsidies.

I worked for a big Japanese manufacturer. They made TVs. Their typical anti-Union campaign was to let former union members have their say. The IBEW didn't get past the gates, ever. Some of the guys would spit on the leaflets passed out by organizers. Mind you, these guys had an awful reputation in the local community towards the end of their run but still, nobody wanted to sign those cards.

Gene

[ChinoCharles]

Thread cleaned.

If anyone has a problem with the way this forum is nowadays, you are more than welcome to leave. Nobody is twisting your arm making you sign on and post.

[ChinoCharles]

The Venza was designed and produced in America exclusively.

[staypuft]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

The Venza was designed and produced in America exclusively.

isnt it replacing the avalon? the avalon was a big car, i guess toyota said might as well made it a wagon

[firemachine69]

Originally Posted by staypuft

isnt it replacing the avalon? the avalon was a big car, i guess toyota said might as well made it a wagon

The Camry grew so big it essentially displaced the Avalon.

[ChinoCharles]

The Avalon was an underbadged Lexus. I'm not sure if the Venza replaced it or not, though.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Altitude

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/e99e8514-f...0779fd2ac.html

You're asking the right question of the wrong people - it's not GM and Ford, both of whom make small cars for the EU and Developing world. GM's Daewoo Line is sold in the developing world as the Chevy Joy. Ford's Escort is made in several countries.

The person you want to ask is the American consumer.... the same one who won't pay the equivalent of $25,000 for a Yaris sized car, who is "offended" when a small car passes their SUV and so on. Who thinks that "bigger is better" because it's "armor" that protects them from collision and who measures their worth by the size of their vehicle.

The Suburban and other 4x4 vehicles have enough of a price premium to support the costs of US manufacture. I'll say this again - you cannot make Yaris sized cars in the US. Toyota doesn't do it, neither do any other manufacturer, including Hyundai, which makes the Santa Fe SUV and the Sonata in the southern US in the "most sophisticated automobile plant in the world".

If Hyundai cannot make a Yaris sized car in a highly automated factory that is not vertically integrated (chances are that the bigger drive train components are made off shore), and is in a Right to Work State, how on Earth do you expect GM and the UAW to do it?

Come on! GM has Job Banks, Golden Parachutes, a bloated top heavy management that is heavily drawn from two Business Schools (Harvard and U Penn's Wharton Business school), a militant UAW and is constantly preyed upon by lawyers committing barritry in order to share the wealth.

GM's annual budget for Viagra is over $10 million bucks per year.... Lord only knows that they pay out for their gold plated health insurance program. Everyone, salaried and hourly alike, has a guaranteed benefit pension at GM.

At GM you have a "perfect storm" of complacency, group think and an attitude that they're "too big to fail" coupled with an unsustainable pension, benefit and pay scales. The customer doesn't count at GM, at least not enough for them to change their ways in house.

If Hyundai cannot do it in the US you cannot expect GM to do it, nor Ford nor Cerebus Chrysler.

Gene

[GeneW]

Someone is going to ask - if Detroit was listening to the customer why didn't they make a bunch of cheap, small fuel efficient cars last summer?

They did, but not in the US.

Also, all car makers are suffering at this time. We're in a recession, at least in the US.

Gene

[GeneralDon7]

I'm curious if any of these high executives at the big three, have thought or considered taking a paycut, since I"m pretty sure they make more in one month, then I do in a year. I read an article, a while ago, about japanese CEO's, taking a PAYCUT, so they wouldnt have to fire workers, and the CEO's actually eating with the employees instead of having a five star lunch. That would be a boss I would think cares more about me(The common workers), then the money going into his own pocket. I may be wrong though.

[yaris-me]

You can argue logic all you want. Obama's administration will do what ever it takes to stimulate the economy. That means saving jobs, no matter what you feel or think about the workers or officers, no matter what you think about the products and no matter what you feel or think about the tax dollars that are being dumped into a black hole. Such is life!

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by yaris-me

Obama's administration will do what ever it takes to stimulate the economy.

I must disagree with this statement. I believe that Mr. Obama will spend whatever he can spend. I am totally confident that he will sell as much debt overseas as is possible.

I do not think he will not repeal silly business regulation, hem in regulators who want to grow their empires, free up entrepreneurs to make new businesses and so on, measures that would really grow the economy.

Gene

[ka0sx]

Because printing money has worked in the past?

post ww1 germany did this and it ended in hyper inflation, no mater how you do it, creating jobs doing so only slows the process.

America needs to take(annex) Mexico while the government is in shambles and the drug wars are at their peak.
Taxing the products will bring in large amounts of revenue.
Limit drug and illegal immigrant traffic from further south.
Gain access to PemEx.

Transfer our debt from china and spread it across multiple European countries instead.
This will allow us to sever trade ties with china and allow us to stop the bull shit
created by NAFTA and the trade agreement with china in exchange for them buying our debt(thanks Clinton)
We will be able to then tax the goods from china limiting the potential for corporations to reap profits of their GREED.

Sorry for the HiJack of the thread

back to topic,

ford seems to be getting the idea and is planing several smaller cars to be made available in the states.

GM needs to change tactics or die, not receive free money driving the value of my hard earned money down.

Dodge/chrysler..... see above.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by ka0sx

America needs to take(annex) Mexico while the government is in shambles and the drug wars are at their peak.
Taxing the products will bring in large amounts of revenue.
Limit drug and illegal immigrant traffic from further south.
Gain access to PemEx.

No, no, no!!

The US has been a pain in the asses of the Mexican people since the 1840s, when we took parts of it to make our southwest.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican...93American_War

This was followed by interventions all through latin America. The disrespect shown to latin peoples has been marked and continuous.

The US does not need to invade Mexico. The US should leave the Mexican people in peace.

You want to fix the "drug problem" legalize the crap, which takes the profit out of it.

PeMex? The Cantarell field is located in Mexico. It's their oil.

Illegal aliens? Do you understand who hires illegals and why they do it?

Originally Posted by ka0sx

Transfer our debt from china and spread it across multiple European countries instead.

The Europeans don't anywhere the amount of savings required to buy US t-bills as the Chinese. We sure cannot "transfer debt". Chinese interests hold that debt and like it. So far anyhow.

Originally Posted by ka0sx

This will allow us to sever trade ties with china and allow us to stop the bull shit created by NAFTA and the trade agreement with china in exchange for them buying our debt(thanks Clinton)
We will be able to then tax the goods from china limiting the potential for corporations to reap profits of their GREED.

*sigh*

US business interests like doing business in China. Chinese workers are "well disciplined". They work long hours. They work hard. They don't go on strike.

Do you understand what WTO means? Do you understand that the US is treaty bound to honor WTO agreements?

Be a lot easier to make the US more business friendly. I ain't holding my breath for the next two years regarding THAT.

Gene