Something that just PISSES me off...

[KrazyDawg]

I wonder if they get a tax break for producing flex fuel vehicles.

[STC]

^ Probably! How much? I would guess not much...

[why?]

Originally Posted by KrazyDawg

I wonder if they get a tax break for producing flex fuel vehicles.

Probably, although all they really need to do is pay someone and they get any tax breaks they wanted. For a while in the tax code there was a specific tax break written for GM only, basically said the company at the HQ address would get a tax break for whatever.

The wonders of lobbying.

[Black Yaris]

gas here has been 10% ethanol for as long as I can remember.

and you ever notice just about every e85 car is a domestic?

[jcemitte]

THE ANSWER: hydrogen powered cars, with an internum diesel engine to help the process along until we can do the whole process more efficiently.

and most deffinently a ludacris speed button on the shifter.

[sleey0]

Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1

NO I won't. that is up to you.

Darn. I was hoping to be proved wrong.

Oh, well. Guess I will stick with the "ethanol sux" campaign:)

[STC]

The gas station owner tells me this Monday 10/4/10 they will be changing out their tanks (filters/pumping out the water) and receiving their first batch from their supplier who was forced by PA State Mandate Law to change over to ethanol earlier this month...

The amount is under 1,500 gallons. I will be filling up tomorrow morning!

Good news is the owner told me they have over 5,000 gallons of non-ethanol 92 octane premium gas left!!! He mentioned that should be good until November, since the demand for premium gas is low! He said though, if people start to find out, it will be sooner till they run out...

I guess when all is done, farmers, small engine, and carburator owners will have to use gas stabilizers/treatments to counter ethanol for their engines... like STABIL-Fuel Stabilizer...

Cheers!

[why?]

Originally Posted by STC

The gas station owner tells me this Monday 10/4/10 they will be changing out their tanks (filters/pumping out the water) and receiving their first batch from their supplier who was forced by PA State Mandate Law to change over to ethanol earlier this month...

The amount is under 1,500 gallons. I will be filling up tomorrow morning!

Good news is the owner told me they have over 5,000 gallons of non-ethanol 92 octane premium gas left!!! He mentioned that should be good until November, since the demand for premium gas is low! He said though, if people start to find out, it will be sooner till they run out...

I guess when all is done, farmers, small engine, and carburator owners will have to use gas stabilizers/treatments to counter ethanol for their engines... like STABIL-Fuel Stabilizer...

Cheers!

the problem is a lot of those types of things don't work that well with ethanol, the water in the ethanol tends to suck them up before they can interact with the gas.

[STC]

Originally Posted by why?

the problem is a lot of those types of things don't work that well with ethanol, the water in the ethanol tends to suck them up before they can interact with the gas.

Yes, this is the case! I talked to several farmers and they use dry gas in combination. Especially, during the winter (dormant) months...

Cheers!

[mryaris]

Ethanol is not going to cause any issues with your cars.....especially in the 10% range (i.e. E10, which is what most oxygenated fuels are nowadays). I've lived in Colorado for 26 years (driving for 23) and our gas has always been oxygenated....originally with MTBE, and now with ethanol. In high concentrations ethanol will cause driveability issues, but as several people have already stated, all newer cars are designed to run on the stuff in the 10% range. I still have the owners manual for my 1988 Pontiac Fiero and it even states that 10% ethanol is OK and that was hardly a high-tech vehicle. I use E10 in my 1959 Austin-Healey (twin carbs) and have had no issues with idle or driveability either. I did experiment with E85 once and it drove better at WOT/high RPM's, but it wouldn't idle to save its life. A computer controlled car would fare much better, but prolonged use of E85 in a car not designed for it will definitley damage the engine and its peripherals.

Honestly, quit worrying over nothing. I use E10 in my Yaris and it still drives nice and gets 40MPG. I have no doubts that it will still be going strong 10 years from now....ethanol notwithstanding.

[STC]

Originally Posted by mryaris

Ethanol is not going to cause any issues with your cars.....especially in the 10% range (i.e. E10, which is what most oxygenated fuels are nowadays). I've lived in Colorado for 26 years (driving for 23) and our gas has always been oxygenated....originally with MTBE, and now with ethanol. In high concentrations ethanol will cause driveability issues, but as several people have already stated, all newer cars are designed to run on the stuff in the 10% range. I still have the owners manual for my 1988 Pontiac Fiero and it even states that 10% ethanol is OK and that was hardly a high-tech vehicle. I use E10 in my 1959 Austin-Healey (twin carbs) and have had no issues with idle or driveability either. I did experiment with E85 once and it drove better at WOT/high RPM's, but it wouldn't idle to save its life. A computer controlled car would fare much better, but prolonged use of E85 in a car not designed for it will definitley damage the engine and its peripherals.

Honestly, quit worrying over nothing. I use E10 in my Yaris and it still drives nice and gets 40MPG. I have no doubts that it will still be going strong 10 years from now....ethanol notwithstanding.

Nope, I'm not worried...

The Yaris can handle E10 with no problem. I'm talking about the long affects of alcohol fuel to new and especially small engines/farm equipment. We know ethanol can cause problems with the older engines and fixtures. This (alcohol fuel) is relatively new... under 10 years in the US. Too soon to see the long term affects that may pop-up?

The US is the world's leader in ethanol production... at 11 million gallons a year followed by Brazil at 6 million gallons. Brazil gets their ethanol from sugar cain cellulose which is more efficient to produce, while we produce it from our main crop corn which is less efficient.

My concern is how policies are instituted without proper foresight! The waste in producing the ethanol from corn is obscene. US Government (corporatocracy) subsidizes the agribusiness, diverting corn based food production. Costs rise on both ends (supply and demand)... especially food. The American people are not the beneficiaries of this policy in any way. We are constantly being told it is good for the world ecosystem? I have my reservations...

Cheers!

[mryaris]

Originally Posted by STC

Nope, I'm not worried...

The Yaris can handle E10 with no problem. I'm talking about the long affects of alcohol fuel to new and especially small engines/farm equipment. We know ethanol can cause problems with the older engines and fixtures. This (alcohol fuel) is relatively new... under 10 years in the US. Too soon to see the long term affects that may pop-up?

Gotcha! I don't own a lawn mower so I'm not as concerned as others are.

The US is the world's leader in ethanol production... at 11 million gallons a year followed by Brazil at 6 million gallons. Brazil gets their ethanol from sugar cain cellulose which is more efficient to produce, while we produce it from our main crop corn which is less efficient.

My concern is how policies are instituted without proper foresight! The waste in producing the ethanol from corn is obscene. US Government (corporatocracy) subsidizes the agribusiness, diverting corn based food production. Costs rise on both ends (supply and demand)... especially food. The American people are not the beneficiaries of this policy in any way. We are constantly being told it is good for the world ecosystem? I have my reservations...

Cheers!

OK....I understand where you're coming from. I did some papers in college 8 years or so ago about ethanol (more specifically E85 fuels) for my Economics classes. This was around the time when E85 was just becoming known....we had a few stations that sold it, but most of the country hadn't heard of it yet. There was a lot of excitement over ethanol because gas had spiked and hit $2/gallon for the first time (remember when that was huge news?), but the cost-benefit analysis on corn based ethanol was grossly skewed with the subsidies you mentioned.

I personally don't mind the fact that we are using ethanol in our fuels, but I think the current production methods are inefficient and cause more harm than good. Now if we ever get an efficient biomass ethanol production system up and running I think people would come on board since it uses waste plant materials, but who knows if or when that will ever happen.

[docB]

Ethanol does not have the energy density of gas. You & I would get better milage w/o the corn crap. As for flex fuel vehicles, they exist due to the efforts of the sh!theads that lobby for the farmers. CAFE started in 1975. Get better fuel milage to reduce foreign dependency. The clowns that get Fed money to grow the special corn for E85 paid into the system to get the energy equivalent for flex fuel cars and trucks. Read that as a E85 vehicle gets the same as like 60mpg. We all know next to none of them have ever burned E85. To think they will get better milage due to E85 is as big a joke. Any test shows you need to burn way more E85 to go a given distance compared real gasoline. But if GMand Chrysler sell these unreal E85 super milage cars, the CAFE number is met and they can avoid R&D to build a car like the Yaris. You know how much you need a 10mpg SUV or pick-up. Hell, they fund the disgusting bounuses and retirement funds.

[STC]

Originally Posted by docB

Ethanol does not have the energy density of gas. You & I would get better milage w/o the corn crap. As for flex fuel vehicles, they exist due to the efforts of the sh!theads that lobby for the farmers. CAFE started in 1975. Get better fuel milage to reduce foreign dependency. The clowns that get Fed money to grow the special corn for E85 paid into the system to get the energy equivalent for flex fuel cars and trucks. Read that as a E85 vehicle gets the same as like 60mpg. We all know next to none of them have ever burned E85. To think they will get better milage due to E85 is as big a joke. Any test shows you need to burn way more E85 to go a given distance compared real gasoline. But if GMand Chrysler sell these unreal E85 super milage cars, the CAFE number is met and they can avoid R&D to build a car like the Yaris. You know how much you need a 10mpg SUV or pick-up. Hell, they fund the disgusting bounuses and retirement funds.

http://abcnews.go.com/Business/wireStory?id=11865473

Progress for who?

Cheers!

[darkMINI]

E85 may sound like the devil, but when you compare it to foreign oil, it's really not that bad. Especially when China starts controlling the major sea trade routes and taxing the hell out of our fuel imports...unless something changes soon.
I've been working on a government installation for a long time and E85 was forced on our fleet a long time ago. Our vehicles get the shit run out of them and many stay running all day long, and do so just fine. In fact most of them have between 100 and 300 thousand miles on them. And these are NOT flex-fuel vehicles at all. We go through a lot of transmissions, axles, tires, and u-joints but I have never heard of an engine replacement yet.
The only downfall I've noticed...our gas mileage pretty much sucks, they start harder in the winter, and the exhaust smells like crap.
Ahhh...I remember when I was pissed over the loss of leaded gas at the pumps!

[firemachine69]

The plus-side of gas with ethanol is it essentially makes fuel injector cleaners obsolete...

[why?]

Originally Posted by firemachine69

The plus-side of gas with ethanol is it essentially makes fuel injector cleaners obsolete...

is that really worth water in the gas, and a 10% fuel cut?

[darkMINI]

It does clean up dirty and fouled injectors. Works wonders on CEL's due to misfires. Will also clean out your fuel tank, in turn plugging your fuel filter :(
It makes a good "occasional maintenance" fuel, but i'd prefer to use straight gas on a daily basis if given a choice.

If you consider BP's oil spill E-85 is much better for the ecosystem. Besides that, drilling pumping and refining oil and shipping it from the other side of the planet, is creating an incalculable amount of waste. Much more than locally made Corn gas. You have to look at the bigger picture.