D4D Diesel for USA?

[cherry tomato]

Originally Posted by bronsin

What would the diesel option cost?

More than it is worth.
I have a diesel truck. I bought it when diesel used to be cheaper than gas. It still gets a little better mileage than the v10 gas engine that are comparable in HP and torque, but the initial cost, maintenance cost, higher fuel cost, just don't make up for the difference.
10 years ago, diesel trucks used to get 20+ mpg, now the new trucks get around 10-12. New "technology" or EPA requirements seem to be killing their mpg performance.
Also, the manufacturers need to claim most HP and torque (400 and 600 is the claim to fame now) doesn't help efficiency.

If my little 15k Yaris can get 37mpg, I am fine with that. Thats better than most motorcycles I ride get.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by cherry tomato

More than it is worth.
I have a diesel truck. I bought it when diesel used to be cheaper than gas. It still gets a little better mileage than the v10 gas engine that are comparable in HP and torque, but the initial cost, maintenance cost, higher fuel cost, just don't make up for the difference.
10 years ago, diesel trucks used to get 20+ mpg, now the new trucks get around 10-12. New "technology" or EPA requirements seem to be killing their mpg performance.
Also, the manufacturers need to claim most HP and torque (400 and 600 is the claim to fame now) doesn't help efficiency.

If my little 15k Yaris can get 37mpg, I am fine with that. Thats better than most motorcycles I ride get.

Right. A diesel engine is no better an economic proposition that a hybrid. But I wondered just how much they would want for one. I had a 240d with a 4 speed ten years ago. I remember getting diesel when it was 79 cents and regular was 99 cents. Those were the days!

My ST1300 is getting 31 mpg this winter and so is the Yaris. The Yaris will do 36 mpg in summer. At those numbers the Yaris is the most cost effective vehicle out there. People buying hybrids only serves to reinforce my suspicion that IQs have dropped sharply in this country lately.

[why?]

Hybrid purchases have nothing to do with either iq's or gas mileage. They are the new status symbols. Hybrids are the new snob cars.

[cherry tomato]

Originally Posted by why?

Hybrid purchases have nothing to do with either iq's or gas mileage. They are the new status symbols. Hybrids are the new snob cars.

Exactly.
Notice how retarded the styling on them is?
They scream I am a hybrid! I am a hybrid! I am saving the earth!

[brg88tx]

2010 prius gets 50 mpg, but the diesel yaris gets over 70 mpg. they will never sell them in america because they would destroy their prius sales.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by brg88tx

2010 prius gets 50 mpg, but the diesel yaris gets over 70 mpg. they will never sell them in america because they would destroy their prius sales.

70 mpg? Can you cite a source for that figure? If true it would be an economical proposition. It would make a hybrid obsolete.

Not that it would stop people from buying them! They are crazy for hybrids.

[brg88tx]

Originally Posted by bronsin

70 mpg? Can you cite a source for that figure? If true it would be an economical proposition. It would make a hybrid obsolete.

Not that it would stop people from buying them! They are crazy for hybrids.

http://ecomodder.com/blog/toyota-yar...thon-7049-mpg/

[bronsin]

Hmm interesting. But I think its open to question whether these results are realistic in terms of everyday driving. Since the engine isnt sold in the US I wonder are there any official type numbers around like EPA estimates?

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Hmm interesting. But I think its open to question whether these results are realistic in terms of everyday driving. Since the engine isnt sold in the US I wonder are there any official type numbers around like EPA estimates?

I don't really think it matters much. Even if a lead foot only gets 60mpg, it's still better and cheaper than a gas hybrid. Take the overall efficiency of the gas Yairs out of the picture, it would be a Prius killer which is why that diesel Yaris wouldn't be offered here.

Even if they offered a Diesel Electric hybrid Prius (which would be expensive), the lower profit margin diesel Yaris would obsolesce the Prius altogether, and we all know that doesn't make any business sense.

[MUSKOKA800]

We might see a diesel introduced here in Canada before it hits the US market.
Smaller cars are more popular here (due to our much higher fuel prices) and the TDI Volkswagans have been big sellers for decades.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

I don't really think it matters much. Even if a lead foot only gets 60mpg, it's still better and cheaper than a gas hybrid. Take the overall efficiency of the gas Yairs out of the picture, it would be a Prius killer which is why that diesel Yaris wouldn't be offered here.

Even if they offered a Diesel Electric hybrid Prius (which would be expensive), the lower profit margin diesel Yaris would obsolesce the Prius altogether, and we all know that doesn't make any business sense.

It makes all the difference in the world. Neither the gas hybrid nor the diesel engine is more cost efficient at todays prices than the gas version. Not only that, but a smaller lighter car powered by a smaller (say 1 liter) gas engine would be even harder to catch. The better the mpg the sooner they would be if costs keep rising. Am I wrong?

[p123456789]

I wish they would sell that car here but fuel prices aren't high enough for a car like that to sell good here. Americans still feel the need to have an suv that seats 7 even though they only have one kid. Fuel prices would need need to stay above 4 dollars a gallon for a couple years before we start seeing small cars with efficient diesel engines. I wouldn't mind seeing fuel prices that high, people would conserve alot more and we would see more cars like ours on the roads.

[nemelek]

I like Diesels. If they offered it in the Yaris I would consider if the number worked. The extra cost of the engine would have to be off set by the fuel savings. That may never happen. My 2004 Dodge diesel cost $5,000 more than the Hemi. Still haven't hit the break even point.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by nemelek

I like Diesels. If they offered it in the Yaris I would consider if the number worked. The extra cost of the engine would have to be off set by the fuel savings. That may never happen. My 2004 Dodge diesel cost $5,000 more than the Hemi. Still haven't hit the break even point.

I like 'em too! I LOVED my 240D. in the 80s and 90s it was a going proposition. I would LOVE a monster diesel truck. But I am no fool. It has to pay its way.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by why?

Hybrid purchases have nothing to do with either iq's or gas mileage. They are the new status symbols. Hybrids are the new snob cars.

Do you agree they arent saving money and they think they are saving the planet? Do you think they are saving the planet? Do you think they are saving money? I guess your argument could be people were ALWAYS blanking nuts and have not in fact gotten any worse. Just more of the same.

I accept your position in that case.

[Lewis]

These lofty clean diesel mpg figures are not hype - I know from 1st hand experience.

A couple of years ago my wife and I rented a FIAT Punto diesel (stick shift) and drove all over Europe including up and down a whole lot of mountains in the Alps and in heavy traffic in Italy. We averaged 78 mpg without any special driving techniques on my part. I was shocked when I did the math. And the Punto is really all the car most families need on a rational basis (seats 4 comfortably, nice size trunk hatchback design and yes about the same size/weight as a Yaris. And save your FIAT jokes- car was 100% reliable, with no squeaks rattles etc. which I wish I could say for my Yaris. Also it was a well used (70k km on the clock) rental car- not babied like my Yaris.

Made my Yaris' 35 mpg (and the Prius' 50 mpg for that matter @ almost 2x the price of a Punto) look pretty weak in comparison. And the new euro spec clean diesels run quietly, don't smoke and have enough pep for anyone looking for economical transportation. Did 70-80 mph on the motorways without any trouble albiet with a bit less accelerative ability than most Americans would wish to enjoy (not need IMO).

I'm convinced that if Toyota brought in the new Yaris with the clean diesel it would sell well as a niche vehicle with $4 a gallon fuel predicted for this summer. The problem probably would be that it would lay waste to Toyota's hybrid line which in the USA is Toyota's main sales proposition. In Europe you simply can't sell family cars (and believe it or not the Yaris is a family car in the rest of the world) without a diesel engine- the result of $9/gallon fuel prices which my wife's family in Holland currently pay. Let me tell you that price for fuel forces you pretty quickly to be objective about your REAL transportation needs in a vehicle purchase!

BTW my sister in law in Holland drives a Yaris diesel :-) Not only is the mileage almost twice what I get in my Yaris but to add insult to potential injury it has many more items of safety equipment (like knee airbags, etc.), nicer content (real set of gauges, better interior materials quality etc.), and much more sound insulation than my domestic Yaris. She paid more than I did but I would happily have paid more to get what she was able to buy over there. One look at her Dutch Yaris (and the Japanese market Yaris for that matter) tells you all you need to know about the fact that Toyota considers the USA market a third world nation educationally and financially which is reflected in the Yaris they offer to us.

But my 1.5 gasoline Yaris can easily beat her diesel in the all important American acceleration race from a stoplight! Boy are we lucky!!!!

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by Lewis

She paid more than I did but .

Yeah thats the $64 question: what do they get for these things? That 78 mpg figure. Was that obtained by dividing miles traveled by gallons burned? Or by the lie-o-meter digital mpg readout on the dash? And whats the displacement of that engine? Inquiring minds want to know.

Frankly Im having a hard time with that 78 mpg figure. I would need hard evidence to back that up. But if its true it might be an economically viable situation.

[Lewis]

I keep meticulous records and computed it on a calculator- I expected 50-55mpg or so and was amazed myself. I don't know how else to prove it to you. It actually came out to 77.8 mpg after converting from liters to gallons and km to miles. The Punto diesel I rented was not a TURBO diesel like the VWs we get here- and much more geared for motorway economy- the tach was in the 2,000-2,500 rpm range with the accelerator floored on the motorway. It was 2 years ago but if my memory is correct it was a 1.3 or 1.4L diesel but that is a guess. I remember thinking it had less displacement than my 1.5 Yaris.

Regarding the price of the Yaris in Holland it's hard to say what it would sell for here because they tax new car purchases like crazy in Holland. Diesels I have read average about 1,500 dollars more than the equivilant gasoline engines to build for the manufacturer. A turbo probably adds another $700. I do think a naturally aspirated diesel would be a tough sell in the USA as it simply would not meet American expectations for acceptable acceleration although in my personal opinion I could happily drive the Punto here and feel safe.

Keeping momentum up is simply a different driving skill/enjoyment which Europeans learn by necesscity with their fuel prices- ask a Lotus driver.

:-)