MT vs AT----fuel efficiency

[why?]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Isnt the echos engine and drivetrain identical?

Originally Posted by Em_

yes it is i don't get the other statement

no it is not. The engine is the same.

they are closer than I thought though.

I wonder if the final drives will swap easy enough to change it.
The echo used the C150 gearbox, with ratios of
3.555/1.904/1.310/0.969/.815 reverse:3.250final=4.05
The Yaris is the C50:
3.545/1.904/1.310/0.969/.815/Final Drive: 3.722
Reverse: 3.250

as anyone who plays GT can tell you, the final drive makes a gigantic difference. In this case, it is the complete difference between the Echo's 99hp rating and the Yaris' 105. That and the extra 100+ lbs the Yaris has over the Echo tells why the Yaris won't get the same gas mileage.
sources:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252
https://www.google.com/search?q=toyo...ient=firefox-a
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_...sions.htm#C150
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_...oyota_Echo.htm
https://www.google.com/search?q=toyo...iw=911&bih=383

[bronsin]

Thanks for that I didnt know.

So which final drive gives you better mpg the 3 point something or the 4 point something?

I guess the auto tranmissions are the same?

Originally Posted by why?

no it is not. The engine is the same.

they are closer than I thought though.

I wonder if the final drives will swap easy enough to change it.
The echo used the C150 gearbox, with ratios of
3.555/1.904/1.310/0.969/.815 reverse:3.250final=4.05
The Yaris is the C50:
3.545/1.904/1.310/0.969/.815/Final Drive: 3.722
Reverse: 3.250

as anyone who plays GT can tell you, the final drive makes a gigantic difference. In this case, it is the complete difference between the Echo's 99hp rating and the Yaris' 105. That and the extra 100+ lbs the Yaris has over the Echo tells why the Yaris won't get the same gas mileage.
sources:
http://www.cleanmpg.com/forums/showthread.php?t=252
https://www.google.com/search?q=toyo...ient=firefox-a
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_...sions.htm#C150
http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_...oyota_Echo.htm
https://www.google.com/search?q=toyo...iw=911&bih=383

[joe keeney]

Texas full air 80 or 90 out here in the middle of nowhere 32 mpg. Love this car made to drive.

[broody]

From experience, the yaris and echo have the same gearing, they both reach 65mph or so in 2nd gear. But I'm talking about the echo hatchback 2004-2005 (Canada), maybe that the sedan has shorter gearing, I know it was the case with the Civic EK. And the echo was always rated at 105hp or 108hp, I never heard of 99hp.

And from this source, the final drive of the echo is 3.526
http://www.new-cars.com/2004/toyota/...cho-specs.html

[bronsin]

Me neither always 106 hp ECHO and Yaris.

[why?]

http://www.vibratesoftware.com/html_...oyota_Echo.htm

This link is the best to describe that link. Differential ratio is not final drive. The Yaris differential ratio is 3.722 according tothis.

the last year of the echo sedan in the us, when they changed the rating system, the echo was 99hp. I cannot find a link that mentions this, but it is what I remembered. Toyota changed the final drive to bop it back to 105(i assume).

The 4.05 gets better gas mileage. Basically for a car with as little hp as the Yaris and echo, the higher the final drive the harder it is to accelerate. What is funny though is since the Yaris came in at 2365 and the Echo at 2055, the Echo was faster too.
fun stuff to look @ http://www.insideline.com/toyota/yar...a-yaris-s.htmlhttp://autos.aol.com/cars-compare?cu...=USB50SCC011A0

[broody]

You didn't find any mention of that 99hp echo because there is no such a thing, and the gearing won't affect the peak HP.

[bronsin]

QUOTE The 4.05 gets better gas mileage. Basically for a car with as little hp as the Yaris and echo,...QUOTE

Hmm. In 1972 the BMW 2002 FI had 100 hp and was considered the fastest, most outrageous, hippest sporty little sedan you could buy.

I wonder what people then would make of the ECHO were it to go there? It gets 106 hp from 1.5 liters, something then unheard of.

Yet a common description today of the ECHO is POS.

[gray09S-hatch]

I dont uderstand i cant get better than 29mpg in my 09 at hatch ? Its a mix of hwy and city and i just took a 400 hwy trip and at 85mph most of they way i got 29mpg also

[bronsin]

My 09 hatch with auto gets similiar mpg at 85 mph.

It gets 40 mpg+ at 60-65.

[gray09S-hatch]

Originally Posted by bronsin

My 09 hatch with auto gets similiar mpg at 85 mph.

It gets 40 mpg+ at 60-65.

ok so these guys who are getting 40mpg + are driving 60-65 tops

[why?]

Originally Posted by broody

You didn't find any mention of that 99hp echo because there is no such a thing, and the gearing won't affect the peak HP.

Gearing does effect hp measurements. The engine is not in a vacuum, that power gets pushed through the transmission, which changes it completely with each new gear. GT shows this wonderfully.A great read on dynos.

There is a reason tuners use the gear closest to 1:1 for dyno runs.

Now if you mean the engineers, using an engine only dyno, then you are right, since no transmission is hooked up gearing won't matter.

Now again, I highly doubt I am wrong. When I remember things like this I am usually right. Frankly though it is totally beside the main point of gas mileage.

Originally Posted by bronsin

QUOTE The 4.05 gets better gas mileage. Basically for a car with as little hp as the Yaris and echo,...QUOTE

Hmm. In 1972 the BMW 2002 FI had 100 hp and was considered the fastest, most outrageous, hippest sporty little sedan you could buy.

I wonder what people then would make of the ECHO were it to go there? It gets 106 hp from 1.5 liters, something then unheard of.

Yet a common description today of the ECHO is POS.

While the Echo was ugly, it was not a pos. At least no one with a brain called it that. And times change. Some of the most fun cars to drive today are the ones weighing the least, and need less hp to truly be fun. Now personally I love the way the Echo hatch looks.

Colin Chapman is 100% right when he said,"add lightness."

Originally Posted by gray09S-hatch

I dont uderstand i cant get better than 29mpg in my 09 at hatch ? Its a mix of hwy and city and i just took a 400 hwy trip and at 85mph most of they way i got 29mpg also

You need to slow down.

Originally Posted by gray09S-hatch

ok so these guys who are getting 40mpg + are driving 60-65 tops

I doubt they even go that fast. I know when I hit 40+ mpg I barely ever hit 55. You have to drive as slow as you can, and then figure out how to go slower. Plus accelerating and decelerating as slowly as possible as well. The brakes are your enemy. I tell people they need to drive like there is a hand grenade waiting to go off the second you hit the brakes. It makes the way you use the accelerator completely different. The Fuel Economy forum has tons of stuff on hyper miling and how to get great gas mileage.

[broody]

I didn't really read the dyno thing, but what I read is that gearing may affect the WHP, but not the BHP (at the crank). And guess what, for stock cars we always talk about engine/crank HP, not whp. Your argument is still invalid, and even the whp wouldn't change by 5% with such a small change in the gearing.

Originally Posted by why?

You need to slow down.

No, the yaris should have longer gears and a better aero. At 85mph, I average 30MPG with my 240hp Toyota MR2 Turbo...

[why?]

Originally Posted by broody

No, the yaris should have longer gears and a better aero. At 85mph, I average 30MPG with my 240hp Toyota MR2 Turbo...

And at 85 I can hit 40mpg if i am doing all highway. That is totally beside the point. Stop trying to be a jerk.

[broody]

Originally Posted by why?

And at 85 I can hit 40mpg if i am doing all highway. That is totally beside the point. Stop trying to be a jerk.

I think that the Yaris will make better than 29mph at a steady 85mpg, but there is no way you can achieve 40mpg at this speed.
Anyway, the Yaris isn't really a highway cruiser so I don't mind more than that, as long as it's not revving too high for nothing and comfortable.