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04-23-2009, 05:10 PM | #37 |
04-23-2009, 10:26 PM | #38 | |
Banned
Drives: 2008 Yaris Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,034
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Quote:
The curb weight for an 82 camaro is about 3192 pounds, versus a Yaris's, what, 2300 pounds? The horsepower to weight ratio of the Yaris is 0.046 and for the Camaro it's 0.051. The Yaris probably has a much lower drag coefficient than the more boxy Camaro. So it's not surprising that the Yaris could compete with an 82 Camaro. Gene |
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04-24-2009, 09:18 AM | #39 |
Drives: 08 Polar white hatch Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: North Carolina
Posts: 76
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04-24-2009, 09:21 AM | #40 |
you must not know what a viper motor ram truck can do......
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EVERYBODY EVENTUALLY COMES BACK TO YARISWORLD...... |
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04-24-2009, 12:10 PM | #41 | |
Drives: Silver 2007 3Dr - Gryph Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: Kansas City, MO, USA
Posts: 310
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Then there's the LS1-swapped 944's, those are beasts and you can kiss 1st gear goodbye. Treat them like a 4-speed with a REALLY fucked-up shift pattern, unless you're in a burnout contest.
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04-24-2009, 05:41 PM | #42 | |
Drives: 2009 Yaris with TRD parts Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: CT.
Posts: 56
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Quote:
The Z28 Camaro in that road test was fitted with the optional "crossfire injection" engine that was rated @ 165 SAE Net HP - but could only be had with a power sapping automatic. The base engine cars were rates @ 145 HP, but could be had with the 5 speed manual trans, which also reduced weight a bit. I just think it's interesting that a 1.5 liter economy car (Yaris) that some people might label as "slow" is actually every bit as quick as some 5.0 liter V8 performance cars from the early 1980s. I'm old enough to have driven those Z28 Camaros back when they were new, and did in fact drive MANY of them. My Yaris is certainly every bit as quick, though the my Yaris has stronger brakes. Of course, the Z28's high speed stability was vastly superior to that of my TRD suspended Yaris, but that's another story.
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2009 Base model Bayou Blue 3 door hatch, 5 speed manual trans, Option Group D, factory floor mats, accessory mud guards, TRD shocks/springs/rear bar, TRD leather wrapped shift knob, Pioneer FH-P8000BT "double DIN" head unit & 4 Infiniti Kappa speakers, stainless steel license plate screws, Toyota stainless exhaust tip, enhanced driver's seat (professional upholsterer added spring mesh to lower seat cushion which DRAMATICALLY improved support/comfort and also built up lumbar region in seat back for more aggressive lumbar support. Seat Mod Cost: $125; the seat "feels" $350 better.) |
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04-25-2009, 04:46 PM | #43 |
Half a Bubble Off Plumb
Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 1,593
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Maybe someone can find a nice stock '82 Camaro and match 'em up on the track. Anyway, the stock Yaris is plenty powerful to suit me.
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04-25-2009, 07:56 PM | #44 |
Even if the weight to power ratio came out to the same, that is only good for first gear. If even first gear. The gearing of a car, how much resistance you have against the engine (air flow restrictions, rotating mass, gear ratios, etc...) also matter a lot. The yaris does 32 mph in first gear, 61 in second, and close to 90 in third. I haven't removed the limiter yet, so I have no clue where 4th stops, except the whole car tops at 117 (stupid govener). Now, once you take into effect drag coefficients, and weight, and top RPM, and all the other bits, the only real info that counts in the end is the 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, and 0-60 times. My Yaris is far from stock, and before I had my header on there, I killed my boss's (somewhere around 2000) mustang. It was all stock, and was a 5 gear manual like my Yaris. His car weighed a LOT more, and we were already going about 50. I switched to 2nd (close to top of that gear, and he hit 3rd, and I blew past him, slowing when I got to 80+ mph. He chewed me a new one when he finally got to work later. Then, I've had a civic destroy my car at a light. I wrap around turns though, and everyone hates it when I do that, so I do it all the time. You should hear my wife freak out when she's in the car and I put the car to it's max around a corner. She'll grab the door, the dash, me, EVERYTHING within reach and start yelling like crazy for me to slow down. My car does seem to be suffering here in Colorado though. I have to get the MAP sensor reset. My car is used to 10 ft of elevation, now I'm at 4,700 ft. A little less air up here. But back to the subject... it isn't the BHP, or the weight, or the year... in the end, it's everything all wrapped into one giant number. So, yes, this could go on forever. Everyone should also rip out the smaller of the two air filters in their stock intake. Yes, there are two. The second one is for "blow back" or some junk like that. Take it out and you will see the tach move just a little faster.
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04-25-2009, 08:02 PM | #45 |
Oh yeah... and my step dad rebuilds and races older cars, like camaro's, mustangs, chevelles, a 1923 T-bucket, and his last prize, a 1978 Malibu Classic that ran the 1/4 in less than 9 sec, with over 800 HP on the tires. Were talking a 350 engine, bored out, 1 inch cams, twin 4 barrel 550 cfm each eddelbrochs, 6:71 blower, 4 gear rock crusher hurst tranny, and so much other stuff, I don't even know what some of it was. He did have the engine linked to the frame 3 times with a chain to keep it from flying off though. It was strong, fast, loud, and weighed over 3,500 lbs. Then he sold it, and the guy who bought it blew the engine up in less than 2 hours. Sad, sad day at my house.
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04-25-2009, 09:58 PM | #46 | |||
Banned
Drives: 2008 Yaris Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,034
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Hp/Weight will give you a basis of comparison, but sometimes you have to dig a bit deeper for the details. As one of the younger folk here proved to me, an AWD configuration does do a better job of transferring power to the street. Saw that when a Subaru with less HP but AWD matched a new Vette that had more HP but RW. They finished the quarter in the same time, but the Subaru's top speed was markedly slower. The Subaru simply did a better job of transferring the HP to the road than the Vette or maybe the acceleration curves were different. I'd have to measure it all. The Yaris probably has a lot lower coefficient of drag than those older boxier Camaros. Less loss of power during the acceleration phase. The real test is to drag race them. Quote:
I recall the computer in my 82 Regal. It was pretty primitive. Don't know if it was the same or a similar ECU to the Camaros. Probably they were pretty close. Quote:
I too have driven some of the performance cars and the "butt dyno" is stronger than a Yaris. Do you have ABS? I do not but the Yaris brakes are pretty responsive. Gene |
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04-26-2009, 12:01 AM | #47 |
Banned
Drives: 2007 4 Door Yaris Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,357
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04-26-2009, 10:34 AM | #48 | ||
Drives: 2009 Yaris with TRD parts Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: CT.
Posts: 56
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Differences in gearing and traction could significantly alter ET (time to distance), though Trap Speed (speed to distance) would remain relatively unchanged. It is for that reason that Trap Speed (along with vehicle weight) provides such a good estimate of actual peak engine horsepower. Hale's Formula (as used by the Moroso Power/Speed Calculator): Peak Flywheel HP = (1/4 mile Trap Speed/234)^3 * Race Weight Example. A stick shift, bone stock Yaris 2 door hatch traps @ roughly 81 MPH and weighs ~ 2,500 pounds with a driver and a full tank of gas (81 MPH/234)^3 * 2,500 pounds = 103.69 peak flywheel HP Toyota rates the Yaris @ 106 peak flywheel HP (SAE certified). I'd call that pretty close. The formula seemingly doesn't "work" with pre-1972 model year American cars because those published figures (SAE Gross) were essentially meaningless. Similarly some non-SAE certified SAE net figures may also be less than truthful, though far less so than the old SAE Gross figures. In either case, Hale's formula gives an excellent approximation of TRUE "as installed" peak engine HP. Last edited by 427chev; 04-26-2009 at 10:51 AM. |
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04-26-2009, 01:36 PM | #49 | ||
Banned
Drives: 2008 Yaris Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Pennsylvania
Posts: 1,034
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Quote:
Quote:
Gene |
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04-26-2009, 02:53 PM | #50 | |
Drives: 2009 Yaris with TRD parts Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: CT.
Posts: 56
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Quote:
A quick check of the facts proves otherwise and demonstrates just how weak the old engines were by modern standards. (Consider than a base engine, 6.2 liter LS3 Corvette produces 430 REAL (certified SAE Net HP) from 91 octane unleaded gas and will idle all day in traffic with the AC on while meeting stringent, modern day emissions and fuel economy standards.) http://www.camaros.org/copo.shtml A good running, well tuned but production line stock '69 - '71 street hemi made slightly less power than that and it was all downhill from there. A good article addressing the Gross HP issue: Last edited by 427chev; 04-26-2009 at 03:03 PM. |
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04-26-2009, 03:46 PM | #51 |
THIS is good stuff. People doing REAL research, and then sharing that information and intelligence with everyone else, and NOT being jerks or idiots about it. I left this website awhile ago because it seemed to be going down the hole, with everyone being grumpy, stuck up, and somehow no one really knew what they were talking about. Thanks to everyone who has taken the time to do real research and not use any name calling or rudeness to make their points.
Also, their is a very large difference in the power curves of a lot of these cars. I noticed I seem to have no power until over 3,000 RPM's, then at about 5,000 (maybe a little higher than that, but not much) until 6,500 where it peaks, the power seems to die off a tad. I mean, it still accelerates, just not as quick as the mid to mid-high range. Maybe it's the CAI, header, and muffler messing with that part, but that is what I noticed. I also drove an '07 WRX STi, and it had PLENTY of power all the way through, with very little loss of power on the bottom end. The SRT4 on the other hand, had no power until well over 3,500 rpm's, then almost too much power to handle the car properly, especially while turning, cornering, or changing lanes. My step dad's '03 Z-28 had lots of power throughout, and was RWD, but not overly so (mostly because of illegal tires on it to keep it stuck to the road) and it was just a tad heavy in corners. Still, I am a fan of the lightness and pure power of the 4 cylinder world. Hence, I have the infamously undersized 1.5L 1nz-fe engine, and it still produces as much power (close to, anyways) as the older 2.0L engines, and even some of the larger older 4 cylinder engines. |
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04-26-2009, 06:20 PM | #52 | |
Drives: 2009 Yaris with TRD parts Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: CT.
Posts: 56
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Quote:
Peak Flywheel HP ~ = (Trap Speed in the quarter mile/234)^3 * Race Weight I've had a lot of TRULY fast cars and bought this Yaris as a commuter. I really like the little car. The stock suspension wasn't for me, so I went with the full dealer-installed TRD suspension. I am VERY impressed with the resulting ride/handing trade-off. I paid a good upholsterer $125 to (dramatically) improve the stock driver's seat, installed the leather TRD shift knob, a decent stereo with four Infiniti Kappas and called it a day. I average 35 MPH in mixed driving, stay ahead of anyone who isn't making a dedicated effort to beat me and save $$$ for savings/investing. You wouldn't believe how BAD some of the hyped cars are. My '07 Acura TL Type S was WAY too soft (springs and dampers) in the front and the hyped Brembo brakes couldn't hold a candle to my Yaris's brakes. The TRD Yaris's suspension represents a vastly superior compromise. There is beauty in simplicity and headaches in complexity. I know because I've owned lots of both. My TRD Yaris is the best car I've owned since my '99 1LE Z28 Camaro.
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2009 Base model Bayou Blue 3 door hatch, 5 speed manual trans, Option Group D, factory floor mats, accessory mud guards, TRD shocks/springs/rear bar, TRD leather wrapped shift knob, Pioneer FH-P8000BT "double DIN" head unit & 4 Infiniti Kappa speakers, stainless steel license plate screws, Toyota stainless exhaust tip, enhanced driver's seat (professional upholsterer added spring mesh to lower seat cushion which DRAMATICALLY improved support/comfort and also built up lumbar region in seat back for more aggressive lumbar support. Seat Mod Cost: $125; the seat "feels" $350 better.) |
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05-02-2009, 11:55 PM | #53 |
Half a Bubble Off Plumb
Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009
Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA
Posts: 1,593
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Hale's formula doesn't take into account the shape of the power curve. It works well when comparing similar cars, which should have similarly shaped power curves, but average horsepower over the distance is what produces the top end speed. That's a result of average acceleration over the distance.
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05-05-2009, 03:28 PM | #54 | |
Drives: 2009 Yaris with TRD parts Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: CT.
Posts: 56
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Quote:
Example 1: Few modern performance passenger car engines are as peaky (and produce less torque) than the Honda S2000's 2.2 liter DOHC 4 cylinder: http://www.caranddriver.com/reviews/...cs+page-2.html Curb weight (car with a full tank of gas) is 2,792 pounds, so we'll figure an even 3,000 pounds with a driver and test equipment added. Trap speed was 99 MPH. Peak Engine HP = (99/234)^3 * 3,000 pounds = 227 HP. Honda rates it at 237 SAE Certified SAE NET HP Example 2: This new Corvette features a 6.2 liter V8 that offers a very differently shaped power curve (and far more torque) than the Honda S2000's high revving 4 cylinder. Curb weight is 3,299 pounds, so we'll figure an even 3,500 pounds with driver and test equipment. Trap speed was 116 MPH. http://www.caranddriver.com/content/..._z51_08_ss.pdf Peak Engine HP = (116/234)^3 * 3,500 pounds = 426 HP. Chevrolet rates it as 436 SAE Certified SAE NET HP. That phenomenon is attributable to the affect that gearing has on drivewheel torque, relative to vehicle speed. Your point would be more valid if cars didn't use transmissions, but they do. Note: The formula doesn't work as well for large trucks (due to big tires and lots of aero drag) nor was it intended to. Last edited by 427chev; 05-05-2009 at 04:26 PM. |
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