Religious Question/Opinion

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by MadMax

A great discussion, and I applaud everyone who has positively contributed to it. So far it has remained very civil, and I hope that proves to the moderators that a lot of people in this forum can act as adults even while discussing contentious issues.

As for this situation, I agree that if you believe you lead a good life and do the right things, you should find the reward you expect once you life is over. However, one thing I have always said is never confuse faith (your beliefs) with religion (an organization whose members more or less follows certain beliefs). Religion has been the source of a lot of good and bad things in history, but many times it is used as justification for other desires.

My bottom line has always been to enjoy life, because it is a very short journey...

Cheers! M2

That's what I'm saying, but my gf (and them) keep saying, "You know, the road to Heaven is a narrow and hard one."

And again, I respect that that is her belief, but it is not mine.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

You are correct in pretty much everything. Now I have to ask, if you were god, being omniscient and omnipotent - WHY, OH WHY would you make the bible so convoluted that it needs to be decrypted and interpreted, leaving wholes the size of the grand canyon in your story??

Wouldn't it have been easier to make a sensible, believable story, that doesn't fly in the face of science(which is a tool given from God).

This is a serious question. I was born and raised lutheran. Went to christian school, church every sunday, catechism. I can fairly certainly say I've had more christian doctrine rammed down my throat every day than 95% of people. It finally came down to I can not justify why god would make it so GOD DAMN HARD to have faith. Every one in the bible had solid proof in their face. Parting water, burning bushes, pillars of salt, water to wine, the bible is full of miracles that helped the people believe.

Now we have PROOF, SOLID PROOF, that the world is older than 6-10,000 years, as the bible very clearly states. We can see light from farther than 10,000 light years away. Not to mention carbon dating puts many materials on earth past billions of years.

So there is PROOF the bible is wrong. There is NO PROOF anything is true in it. Now, as garm pointed out, there are very clear contradictions, and I have to pick and choose through this book what I want to believe?

God either gets a LOT of enjoyment in seeing the human race squirm and is a sick bastard, or he doesn't exist.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Many many people fear God. They express their devotion to Him by hewing to Biblical based laws. There is nothing wrong with fearing God.

This is gonna sound a bit harsh, but you might want to start letting go of her.

Imagine if you two permanently hooked up and had kids. How would they be raised? Your way or her way? She won't tolerate "Luke Warm" you know.

What about your diet, home life and so on? If it irritates you know how will it feel if you two marry?

The question you ought to be asking yourself is where this is all going to go in the future. I think you need to face the fact that you two are going to part the ways, probably sooner than later.

That you are asking us our opinion on the subject shows that you're seeking some sort of consensus for yourself. In the end you're going to have to hash this out yourself, and I think if you are going to be true to yourself you're going to conclude that... God works in mysterious ways.


I serve Him through my Works and Faith. I follow the 10 commandments pretty well. It's not hard to do, they're not a heavy burden and more often than not they simplify life greatly.

I set before myself the task of understanding His creation. To me the truth is a precious thing, but a slippery thing. You never really are certain what is going on in the world. You have to be ready to improvise, adapt and overcome, at any moment.

I think of God as a bit of a practical joker - I think He speaks with irony as well as emphatically. He also plays very rough at times. I realize that this may seem blasphemous but I think not - a personal relationship with God is... personal.

Gene

Yeah, the 10 Commandments are basically this (Cliffnotes style): Love and believe in Jesus/God, and love your family and others, right? That, I believe, I do on a daily basis. I just don't necessarily follow every thing that the Bible says.

But yeah, I thought about what you stated first, and if she cannot learn to respect my beliefs and co-exist with me, then I'm just going to go.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by supmet

The whole works vs faith thing is pretty much summed up in ephesians 4:8-9

For by grace are you saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast

Pretty much that says to me good works comes after faith, not the other way around.

My problem with the bashing on SDA, is this. 2 Timothy 3:16 - "ALL SCRIPTURE is god-breathed and useful for training, rebuking, correcting, and training in righteousness". Now the whole idea behind the bible is that god controlled the canonical meetings, to decide which books would be in the bible. Now the previous verse from timothy, would tell me, that any book that GOD decided to put into HIS bible, would only contain useful, pertinent scriptures, and we should follow EVERYTHING in the bible... One hallucinatory dream by peter negates the entire old testament? A dream that very conveniently greatly reduced tensions between jews and gentiles in the early christian church?? The dream only mentions food products, and that somehow overturns half of the bible?

As for catholics, the whole praying to mary, and calling her the "co-redemtrix of the world" is ludicrous. Talk about something that isn't in the bible. That and the fact the entire church blackmailed its followers through the sale of indulgences. St. Peter's Basilica was built solely on money stolen from catholic people through this false teaching. The catholic church gave up on indulgences after luther and the reformation, but they still have most of the money to this day. They are one of the richest organizations in the world, and they let their parishes close, rather than selling paintings they have stored under the vatican. Oh, and there is nothing in the bible saying pastors/preachers/fathers/church leaders have to be celibate, and that one is kinda coming back to bite the catholic church in the ass..

As for heaven/hell, from the bible, the only way into heaven is believing that jesus died for your sins, and is your savior. Some people from every religion believe this, and there are people from every religion who don't believe this. The bible is pretty clear though, that there is no other back doors into heaven.


As for me, I'll take none of it thanks. Religion is the greatest mind control ever created. It makes use of people's fear of death, which is without question the greatest fear any person has(public speaking ain't got nothin)..

Anyways, for the hell of it. How would you all feel about your kind loving God, had you been born in china, wait no too easy, how about if you had been born on an island only inhabited by headhunting tribesman. You spend your whole life doing good, you never stole, killed, raped, or in anyway hurt another person. Unfortunately nobody on the island has heard of god, or christianity. Are you doomed to burn in the eternal fires of hell?? If yes, then please explain how the omnipotent god, creator of the universe, who "wants all men to be saved and to come to a knowledge of the truth"(1st Timothy 2:4) was unable to satiate his needs. If no, then please explain how I get to heaven without believing in Jesus.

Instead of calling something ludicrous, please just say it's something you don't believe in or it's something that does not make sense to you.

I think the same thing can be said about SDA (money topic). I mean, SDA requires their followers to pay/give 10% of their income to the church. Now, I'm sorry, but that is WAY more than how much I know people in my Church donate. To me, I believe that a church should accept donations and not mandate anything to be given.

Now, for the Heaven topic, if that is the case and it says that in the Bible, I wonder why my gf and them are so strict about doing the other many things that the Bible says since "it will get them into Heaven."

hahaha, I actually thought about that before, that religion is here to control people and make them live in fear. But I try not to.

I personally won't think someone is going to hell if they do not believe in it in the first place (going along with your tribe example).

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by KCALB SIRAY

I can't believe I'm agreeing with on this, but hey, what the hell. He is right, 100%.


Did you just quote Bill and Ted?


Anywho Laz, I'd like to sit here for an hour and go through the front and back door of all religions and the Bible, but to save you time, I'll throw this out to you. Following the Bible to its entirety requires you to take the good and the bad. If it's following the path or just falling off it, it needs to be dealt with. Not sure if SDA teaches this, but it's not always a "keep smiling" situation in every book of the Bible. Soooo, my advice is to follow what you know and believe, not what someone wants you to believe. I think you already know what you want to do in this case, and it does not mean that your relationship is going to suffer, it just means you are going to have to work at respecting each other.

I respect her, but I'm still waiting for them to respect other people's beliefs. Thanks Mike.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by Kaotic Lazagna

Instead of calling something ludicrous, please just say it's something you don't believe in or it's something that does not make sense to you.

I think the same thing can be said about SDA (money topic). I mean, SDA requires their followers to pay/give 10% of their income to the church. Now, I'm sorry, but that is WAY more than how much I know people in my Church donate. To me, I believe that a church should accept donations and not mandate anything to be given.

lol, there's stuff about tithing ALL over the bible. Not once does it say mary saved the world.

FWIW, you can call anything I believe in ludicrous - and PLEASE do. If it were to make me insecure or bother me, than my faith in whatever you are ridiculing must be unfounded, and I would thank you for the epiphany

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by PK198105

ok i tried very hard to avoid this thread , but i guess im weak and i will say something that might not sit well with others, but please remember im not trying to say that your beliefs are not good or that you are inferior or anything like that. in my opinion RELIGION is not Faith/Spirituality, for me RELIGION is a form of control invented by humans to control each other. The fact that you believe in a higher power does not make you gullible or inferior to others , following blindly some stories told and created by humans does, and that what RELIGION is just a human interpretation of occurrences and situations and how to deal with them. You know why Jews and Muslims don't eat pork; and not the reason that it is a filthy animal or that it is somehow sinful, it is because in the ancient times waaaaay before fridges the Jews and Muslims (who are the same people btw in my eyes) had a party in the middle of the desert and the meat they had at this party happened to be pork. Now what happens to meat when you leave it in the sun too long , it goes bad. So the partying people ate this spoiled meat and got sick and died. They took this as God's punishment and stopped eating pork and it stayed with them. So all religion is really just another form of control over the society, yes some of it is great like the No killing and stealing part (yet we still do it anyways), it provides moral guidelines yes but i seriously doubt when you die that when you stand in front of the Maker he/she/it gonna ask you "Lazandro did you have bacon for breakfast, if you did i can't let you in bro". Before you do anything that you might regret ask your gf why she switched ,what is she scared of that she needs to follow every rule. God doesn't care if you eat this or that ,GOD put all this food and beautiful things on this planet for us to use and all GOD cares about is whether we are good people. Religion does , Karl Marx once said that Religion is the opiate of the masses


You are free to believe what you want , but you are also free to question other's interpretations. Religion is the root of many conflicts on this planet and it looks like you are heading for one yourself (not by choice,but still you are heading there). Correct me if im wrong but we all believe in the same GOD , the only difference between different religions is the interpretation of what GOD wants us to do. My advice is talk to your gf and ask her why is she unhappy

LOL, that was funny.

My gf isn't unhappy, she is just scared. She switched because she believes that the followers of Catholicism will not get into Heaven. And that's also why she's scared still in that she has to follow every thing that the Bible says...getting into Heaven. She believes that if she doesn't follow the Bible, she will not get into Heaven, and that it's not simply having faith in Jesus/God that will get you in.

I mean, I know it's not simply just believing in Him that will get you to him. Like I said, I believe that you have to lead a good life, meaning you can't be going around and kill whom ever you want to.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

I read through some of this, not all, but mostly the first thread with the questions.

My question to the Kaotic's gf etc. mentioned is that I don't see how it's possible to strictly follow the Bible about everything, since it contradicts itself in so many ways. This is not to criticize, but most solutions involve accepting only part of the Bible and not the whole thing (new Christians follow the New Testament, for example).

I would be curious to know what their answer is to that.

The Bible, divinely inspired or not, was written by people and requires deep interpretation to find personal truths reqarding religious belief. Further, that these truths are personal and cannot be just transferred onto someone else in terms of right, wrong, correct behavior, etc.

I already know what she'll say to you post, Garm. She will say, "How does the Bible contradict itself? And God wrote the Bible, not people (I got into a debate about this just the other day. I guess she told her eldest sister, and she forwarded something to my gf to forward to me, websites that say why "we can trust the Bible," but it's the Internet, you can't exactly trust everything you find on the Internet right? For all I know, people can just be making all that stuff up.).

I'm on your boat, Garm.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by supmet

You are correct in pretty much everything. Now I have to ask, if you were god, being omniscient and omnipotent - WHY, OH WHY would you make the bible so convoluted that it needs to be decrypted and interpreted, leaving wholes the size of the grand canyon in your story??

Wouldn't it have been easier to make a sensible, believable story, that doesn't fly in the face of science(which is a tool given from God).

This is a serious question. I was born and raised lutheran. Went to christian school, church every sunday, catechism. I can fairly certainly say I've had more christian doctrine rammed down my throat every day than 95% of people. It finally came down to I can not justify why god would make it so GOD DAMN HARD to have faith. Every one in the bible had solid proof in their face. Parting water, burning bushes, pillars of salt, water to wine, the bible is full of miracles that helped the people believe.

Now we have PROOF, SOLID PROOF, that the world is older than 6-10,000 years, as the bible very clearly states. We can see light from farther than 10,000 light years away. Not to mention carbon dating puts many materials on earth past billions of years.

So there is PROOF the bible is wrong. There is NO PROOF anything is true in it. Now, as garm pointed out, there are very clear contradictions, and I have to pick and choose through this book what I want to believe?

God either gets a LOT of enjoyment in seeing the human race squirm and is a sick bastard, or he doesn't exist.

I said all of this (well not exactly, but things similar) and this is what my gf said, "The Bible/God does not care of world views/thoughts. It's irrelevant to Him." So things like Evolution and all of that doesn't matter. They follow the Bible strictly, so if you guys know of any verses that contradict themselves, please let me know.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by supmet

lol, there's stuff about tithing ALL over the bible. Not once does it say mary saved the world.

FWIW, you can call anything I believe in ludicrous - and PLEASE do. If it were to make me insecure or bother me, than my faith in whatever you are ridiculing must be unfounded, and I would thank you for the epiphany

I try not to call others' beliefs ludicrous since that would be going against what I believe people should do. Well, this pertains to things like giving 10% of your income to your church. But if your belief is to kill everyone who doesn't follow what you believe in, then I'll flat out call that ludicrous. Like I said, everyone has their own beliefs and we all should respect each other in that sense.

[cali yaris]

Laz, first of all you and them are just not on the same page. The real question is there will be mutual acceptance on this fact. If not, I'm gonna get real right here: this is not the girl for you. (sorry).

She will say, "How does the Bible contradict itself?

That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

That's a simple one, but there are a lot more. I see the Bible as inspired but also historical and therefore contextual.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

That's pretty easy, from my point of view. According to old testament (Leviticus I think), she should never speak in church and there are several circumstances in which she would be publicly stoned to death. Does she accept the rules of the old testament?

Don't even have to go OT for that one -

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 -

let the women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but let them be in subjection, as also saith the law. And if they would learn anything, let them ask their own husbands at home: for it is shameful for a woman to speak in the church.

so ya, the bible says she should shut up and make you a turkey pot pie. problem solved

[eTiMaGo]

yeah but try to explain that to someone who blindly believes that every word was put there by God Himself...

I'm afraid the more I read this the more I realize you don't have many options. I'm not so familiar with these SDA people but it sounds more like a cult than an actual religion... As PK mentioned, early Christians have always been very good at twisting things to suit their image...

So I dunno... I know you're very fond of this girl, but you gotta ask yourself if she's worth the inevitable stress and headaches you'll get in the future if you stay with her. Cold, I know... My uncle married some years back and his wife decided to become a Jehovah's Witness... He's a really gentle guy and tried to go along with it, ended up attempting suicide...

[Malaya1221]

Originally Posted by Kaotic Lazagna

Here's the thing, my gf (and the rest of them), are saying that the only way to Heaven is to follow everything the Bible says; i.e. do not eat pork, do not do anything but stay home and read the Bible during Sabbeth (Friday through Saturday), etc. Well, not exactly that, it's more of showing that you love Jesus/God, and to do so, you follow the Bible, primarily the 10 Commandments. However, I have different beliefs on how to get into Heaven or Hell. I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?

KL, you're going to hell for this!!!

i understand your frustrations...it's hard to have a conversation with a wall(j/k)...

you might want to go on a different route in confronting the situation....i was thinking maybe ask the gf if her grandparents believe in what she believes in or, how about kids who do not yet understand these kinds of complexity the time they pass away...are they doom to go to hell too?...ask lots of questions...you might be able to put some logic in to her! well, have fun and good luck!

on a lighter note, 4 words my man...

"there is no god"

[YarisOwnersDad]

It's real simple.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth on him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

2 Corinthians 5:21

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

Jesus, the Son of God, came into this world and lived a perfect, sinless life. He lived the sinless life that one would be required to live in order to be acceptable to God by one's own merits and by one's own righteousness.

No one else has ever lived that sinless life, and no one else ever will.

Romans 3:23

For all have sinned and come short of the glory of God.

When Jesus died on the Cross, He did not die for His own sins, because He had no sin. He took upon Himself our sins and paid the price for them. When we accept Jesus as our Lord and Savior, we accept what He did for us on Calvary. Our sins are no longer imputed to us, rather the Righteousness of God is imputed to us.

Romans 4:6-8

Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,

Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.

Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.

There is but one way to be acceptable to God, and that is through His Son, Jesus Christ.

John 14:6

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Now what God's word said above has nothing to do with being a Catholic, a Baptist, a Methodist, or whatever.

There is not a religion in the world that will make you right with God. There are not enough "good things" you could do to earn your way to Heaven. What you do with Jesus is the only thing that matters. Pilate washed his hands of Jesus. The Roman guards beat Him, spit on Him, and nailed Him to the Cross. The non-believing Jews mocked Him. But the thief on the cross beside Him simply asked Him to remember him when He came into His kingdom.

Luke 23:42:

And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

The thief believed that Jesus was who He said He was. The thief put his trust in Jesus and called Him Lord.

The thief's soul was saved that very moment.

God bless.

Tom

[Malaya1221]

there you go kl, problem solved!

[jambo101]

Speaking of religion George Carlin has a few things to say about it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MeSSwKffj9o

[Loren]

Originally Posted by Kaotic Lazagna

I find it extremely hard to believe that a person who is genuinely good, but does not necessarily follow all of the Commandments/the Bible will not get into Heaven; yet, let's take a "bad" person (what ever that may be) that follows the Commandments/Bible; does that mean that that person has a better chance of getting into Heaven than the genuinely good person?

Okay, here's a quick stab...

I don't believe that there is a god (or a God, no offense) or a heaven, but I prefer to think of myself as a devout agnostic rather than an atheist. Why? Because I don't "know", which is the very definition of agnosticism. I'm really, really close to being an atheist, though.

That said, if there were a god who created the universe and ME, then that god gave me the freedom of thought to come to my own conclusions based on my own personal observations, NOT on the writings of men who have been dead for thousands of years (and who's words have been translated and revised to suit the political ideals of kings and churches over the years), or on the preaching of other men who are convinced that these writings are "the word of god" and that THEIR interpretation of these texts are correct. If such a god exists and there is a heaven waiting for us, I would think that regardless of my lack of faith, being a generally "good" person, good ol' St. Peter would open the gates for me.

FWIW, I was raised Southern Baptist. I think I'm a better "Christian" than most Christians that I know, in spite of the fact that I do not believe. Think about that for a moment.