The great intake debate!

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by camelll

Your getting more warm air into the engine with the stock box, you are getting more cold air with a cai, cold air is denser than warm air.

And how does that make the exhaust gas more polluting? You still haven't explained that!

More air means more exhaust. Duh, of course!!! So does more driving. I still don't see the point.

If, say, 20% of the exhaust are emissions, if you put more air in, you'll get more exhaust, but still, only 20% of that will be emissions. So how is that worse?

Smog measures the percentage of pollutants in the exhaust gas and so far nobody has shown that more air in the engine increases the percentage of pollutants. You've only said that more air in equals more exhaust, to which I say: DUH!

[HTM Yaris]

Other than increased pollution , none .

Excuse me , I got this dumb ass deer in my yard . I got to eliminate him from the gene pool . Besides...... I'm hungry ........ Can you say "Smoked Tenderloin" . See Ya after dinner .................

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by HTM Yaris

Other than increased pollution , none .

Excuse me , I got this dumb ass deer in my yard . I got to eliminate him from the gene pool . Besides...... I'm hungry ........ Can you say "Smoked Tenderloin" . See Ya after dinner .................

I see a lot of increased pollution too: the gun powder used to eliminate the deer, unless you're using a bow and arrow and then there is the smoked tenderloin, which speaks pollution with a capital P

Some pictures would be nice

[camelll]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion. Yes this needs additional citations for verification, but it has sources and does not have any unverifiable claims. If you don't think that adding and burning more fuel does not cause more emissions then I don't know what to tell you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas
"Although the largest part of most combustion gases is relatively harmless nitrogen (N2), water vapor (H2O) (except with pure-carbon fuels), and carbon dioxide (CO2) (except with hydrogen as fuel), a relatively small part of it is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides (NOx), partly unburnt fuel, and particulate matter."

[camelll]

Originally Posted by fmicle

And how does that make the exhaust gas more polluting? You still haven't explained that!

More air means more exhaust. Duh, of course!!! So does more driving. I still don't see the point.

If, say, 20% of the exhaust are emissions, if you put more air in, you'll get more exhaust, but still, only 20% of that will be emissions. So how is that worse?

Smog measures the percentage of pollutants in the exhaust gas and so far nobody has shown that more air in the engine increases the percentage of pollutants. You've only said that more air in equals more exhaust, to which I say: DUH!

You are saying it yourself, that the air intake can affect emissions. What more can I say.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by camelll

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Combustion. Yes this needs additional citations for verification, but it has sources and does not have any unverifiable claims. If you don't think that adding and burning more fuel does not cause more emissions then I don't know what to tell you.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Exhaust_gas
"Although the largest part of most combustion gases is relatively harmless nitrogen (N2), water vapor (H2O) (except with pure-carbon fuels), and carbon dioxide (CO2) (except with hydrogen as fuel), a relatively small part of it is undesirable noxious or toxic substances, such as carbon monoxide (CO), hydrocarbons, nitrogen oxides (NOx), partly unburnt fuel, and particulate matter."

Do you understand the concepts of "absolute" and "relative"?

20% of 100 is the same as 20% of 1,000,000 in "relative" terms. THE SAME. That's how smog is measured in percentage!!!

Yes, I am putting out more exhaust, but it doesn't have a higher percentage of pollutants, it's the same percentage!

A CAI is causing more emissions the same way driving more causes more emissions. Someone driving 100 miles will cause double the pollution of someone driving 50 miles. Simple enough for you? According to your logic the first guy should not pass the smog

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by camelll

You are saying it yourself, that the air intake can affect emissions. What more can I say.

How old are you?

[mikenacarato]

this thread is fail.

cant we all just say that it depends on where you live as to wether you will pass or not. from what it seems we all have had different experiences.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by mikenacarato

this thread is fail.

Sadly, I agree.

Originally Posted by mikenacarato

cant we all just say that it depends on where you live as to wether you will pass or not. from what it seems we all have had different experiences.

That's not what we're debating. The issue here is whether the main purpose of the restrictive stock intake is to reduce noise or to improve emissions.

[camelll]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Do you understand the concepts of "absolute" and "relative"?

20% of 100 is the same as 20% of 1,000,000 in "relative" terms. THE SAME. That's how smog is measured in percentage!!!

Yes, I am putting out more exhaust, but it doesn't have a higher percentage of pollutants, it's the same percentage!

A CAI is causing more emissions the same way driving more causes more emissions. Someone driving 100 miles will cause double the pollution of someone driving 50 miles. Simple enough for you? According to your logic the first guy should not pass the smog

To say that 20 percent of 100 is the same as 20 percent of a million is silly, 20 pph is different than 20 ppm. You will not pass if you are putting out 20 pph but you may pass with 20 ppm. I don't live in California and cannot tell you how they do smog test. What is the baseline and what percentage do you need to pass? To say that burning more fuel does not equate to more emissions or noxious gas is silly.

Originally Posted by fmicle

How old are you?

HA HA enough to know that burning more fuel makes more emissions.

[HTM Yaris]

20 % of 3.0 liters (.6) ( or whatever they measure air in ) is greater than 20 % of 1.5 liters (.3) . I'm not sure ( We don't have smog test here in South Carolina ) , but I would guess that the percentage would based in part by the number of cylinders . I mean that is the whole idea behind CAFE , which starts next year ...I think . A 4 and 8 cylinder may have the same percentage , but the actual number value won't be the same .

[camelll]

Originally Posted by mikenacarato

this thread is fail.

cant we all just say that it depends on where you live as to wether you will pass or not. from what it seems we all have had different experiences.

Why would you even post or read if you feel that way. This thread is about intake and emissions, not if it will pass or fail. Unsubscribe if you don't want to read it.

[camelll]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Sadly, I agree.

Why are you participating then?

[mikenacarato]

camelll must be supmets brother...

well here is my two cents...did you know a cold air intake causes the air to be more dense and combust better...IE more fuel is burned off and less emissions are created. Ill say it one more time so you understand... the more complete the burn..the less emissions you will have. CAIs help this process.

this brings me to my next point...how come they are called airbox silencers? because their primary function is to reduce cabin noise.

[fmicle]

I feel like giving up. If you don't understand that 20% is the same as 20% I can't debate you anymore.

20% of 1,000,000 = 200,000 and not 20 ppm. I have a math degree and your statements make me shake my head in disbelief.

The smog checks percentage of pollutants in exhaust, so unless the percentage changes, the smog results are the same, no matter how much are you're pushing through the engine.

To make it easy for you to understand: about 20% of air is oxygen, alright? Whether it's a room full of air or a small bag, it's still 20%. Just because a room has more air it doesn't mean the air is cleaner than in a smaller space!

Here is how the smog check is done - I honestly don't understand how you can even argue with me when you don't know how the smog test is done. You're telling me I am wrong and at the same time you say you don't know how the smog is done! How ridiculous is that?

3. Emissions Test:
So what exactly is the sniffer measuring?

HCs are essentially unburned fuel. When you hear about octane it's often a reference to the anti-knock index at the pump (87 etc) but it is also a reference to the chemical composition of fuel, part of which is made from C8H18 (eight carbon atoms and 18 hydrogen atoms; hence octane). HC is measured in parts per million (ppm) by the sniffer.

When fuel (HC) and air (O2 + N2) are combusted the ideal product would be energy and water vapor (H20). Because the combustion process is imperfect, CO is one of the byproducts produced. CO is measured as a percentage of the exhaust gas. It is a colorless odorless gas and if you breath it, it will combine with the hemoglobin in your blood and make you sick or kill you in larger doses. Running your engine in the garage is a great way to pass out and possibly die.

CO is also used as an indicator of fuel mixture ratio. An ideal percentage of excess CO would be zero. In practice the %CO measured is a few percentage points: a fuel ratio the VW engine can burn efficiently in all climates, temperatures and conditions. For example, 1-2% would be a relatively lean fuel ratio for a VW especially fuel injected models; 10% very rich (so much so that you can smell the unburned fuel from the exhaust pipe).

NOx is produced when combustion chamber temperatures are high. It was once viewed as the #1 enemy and responsible for the smog in the LA basin. At that time emission reducing devices were geared towards reducing it at the expense of other emissions. That was 20 years ago and since then scientists have come to understand that all the emissions are destructive especially CO2 (a harmful greenhouse gas).

Unfortunately on a VW there is no simple way to minimize all three emissions at once like a modern car is able to do. Lower the HC and CO by leaning out the engine and you produce too much NOx and vice versa. Plus, the catalytic converter (which few models are equipped with) can only do its job at the near perfect fuel ratio (theoretically ideal) which isn't the best ratio for long life of an air-cooled engine.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by camelll

Why are you participating then?

Not much longer, this is hopeless, because you don't know what you're talking about, you just like to argue.

[Tamago]

i'm not gonna waste time quoting but the "more air = more emissions" comment cracks me up. yes, you are physically moving more air in and out of your engine using a less-restrictive intake, but in what way does that make it "bad" emissions? more emissions generally means more BAD air, not just more air in general. if this were the case then a V8 would automatically not pass the sniff test simply because it moves more "emissions" (lol) at idle than a yaris.




i'm officially leaving this thread. people are trying to be too smart for their own good. yet another fine example of overthinking the pointless debate.

[fmicle]

+1