What I've Learned From...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Nicely said. I do the same thing, but just because I don't go to church on Saturday, but rather on Sundays, according to SDA's, my efforts at the other 9 commandments means nothing, therefore, I have failed to be a Christian. It is because my encounter with their church leader that I no longer believe in religion, but just in God. I follow the 10 commandments not because I think I'm a Christian, but because like you said, they make sense.

[TinyGiant]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

This stuff is interesting; I was born a Bastard (according to the Bible), and therefore have an objective point of view. I laugh a lot at what some of the JWs, SDAs, and Catholics have to say, because I am "condemned" due to something in the Bible that I have no control over, regardless of what I do. I am retired, and spent a lot of time helping the handicapped, and will easily pass through the "eye of a needle". How easy is it? Really simple: I follow most of the Ten Commandments because they make sense, not because they came from the Bible. I believe in Community rather than Christ, and read ALL publications, not just the Bible.

Live your lives as best you can, not because the Bible says so, but because your Community needs it that way...

everyone is born as a sinner, condemned. being a bastard doesnt make you unique.. just the opposite. We all sin and fall short of the glory of God. God doesn't care what day you worship on, he cares about your heart and your effort to live for him. Being lukewarm is just as bad as being against God though.. Christ says eternal life is through his salvation.. playing the fence wont get you anywhere according to the scriptures.

I agree with what you are saying though about the 10 commandments making sense.. thats one of the reason i am a Christian. it makes sense. it seems to tie everything together and for me i've felt and seen things that make it irrefutable and impossible to ignore the presence of God in everyday life.


i'll say it a million times .. God doesnt want your religion. i would go as far as to say God hates religion. Jesus targeted and rebuked the religious leaders many many times in the scriptures.. downplaying their focus on works rather than faith. Funny enough many of the cults probably most of them are way more works oriented than faith.. which is interesting. Jesus already paid the price and did the work. we arent saved by works but by faith.. it even says that in the bible. It seems sorta basic idk how so many people miss that or get it wrong.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Tiny, how I wish I can bring you to my gf's SDA group. hehe. I've tried and tried to tell my gf that (about faith, rather than following the bible word for word), and even showed her the verse in which you reference to, but it seems to me like they are brainwashed by their church leader.

They have now stopped eating shell-fish and fish that does not have scales. I guess I won't be eating sushi with my gf anymore.

[TinyGiant]

sushi has the scales removed
where the heck is the reasoning for that lol.

God even told us we can eat pork in the scriptures ..


its really tough to unbrainwash people. the key is to break them from mental dependence and try to inspire independent thinking.. which sadly is hugely discouraged especially in legalistic cults and groups. The JW are horrible with this. they literally arent allowed to read the bible on their own. they are only allowed to read what thier watchtower says they can read. They literally believe that Jesus returned to earch invisibly and resides in thier wharehouse in brooklyn NY and the watchtower is his direct connection and communication with their sect. I had a bunch of different JW coming to my door after i stumped a few elders with questions they couldnt answer.. i can only hope i got them thinking for themselves. But I asked how jesus can return invisibly if the bible says when he returns every ear will hear and every tongue will confess. and it says something like it will be like a light seem from all corners of the earth.. lol they couldn't answer that.. basically they were wrong sooo many times saying that Jesus was returning on specific days that they came up with this invisible thing so that the members wouldnt question it. They also used to say that all JW would never die since they thought they would be the 144,000 going with Christ outlined in Rev. they also think that only 144k people are going to heaven. when the first members of the JW started dying they changed thier beliefs to all who live will live again.. and created what they call the slave class.. which is every JW after the original 144k will serve the original ones after armegeddon . its soo twisted. they even say the gates of heaven closed in 1935.. lol i asked them to point that out in the bible .. nothing they say they have scriptural back up for.. i enjoy dealing with things like this.. its like an easter egg hunt through the scriptures .. finding goodies and interesting questions to ask them. they have a hge convention with like 10000 JW in portland ME.. I wanted to go and wear a shirt that said APOSTATE on it and just ask questions all day to them and strike up convo and see where the day leads. lol

[TLyttle]

Bastard just the same, and it IS in the Bible, my grandfather (Presbyterian Minister) said so, many times. I am going to Hell just the same, so I may as well enjoy the trip...

Invisible??? That's hilarious! Sounds like a Cosby standup routine. It doesn't take much to throw most of these cult guys off if one has even the slimmest knowledge of the Bible; it gets to be fun after awhile. My record is intact: I have NEVER sent any of these people away, they always leave on their own accord when they find that they simply don't have the answers. I had the local leader on my step one day; apparently he was sent in to find out why there was so much trouble with members who had come to visit me before, he was gone in 10 minutes.

And they DO change their interpretations to suit the occasion, which just makes them more vulnerable.

Goin' where Nomex is No good...

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by TinyGiant

sushi has the scales removed
where the heck is the reasoning for that lol.

God even told us we can eat pork in the scriptures ..


its really tough to unbrainwash people. the key is to break them from mental dependence and try to inspire independent thinking.. which sadly is hugely discouraged especially in legalistic cults and groups. The JW are horrible with this. they literally arent allowed to read the bible on their own. they are only allowed to read what thier watchtower says they can read. They literally believe that Jesus returned to earch invisibly and resides in thier wharehouse in brooklyn NY and the watchtower is his direct connection and communication with their sect. I had a bunch of different JW coming to my door after i stumped a few elders with questions they couldnt answer.. i can only hope i got them thinking for themselves. But I asked how jesus can return invisibly if the bible says when he returns every ear will hear and every tongue will confess. and it says something like it will be like a light seem from all corners of the earth.. lol they couldn't answer that.. basically they were wrong sooo many times saying that Jesus was returning on specific days that they came up with this invisible thing so that the members wouldnt question it. They also used to say that all JW would never die since they thought they would be the 144,000 going with Christ outlined in Rev. they also think that only 144k people are going to heaven. when the first members of the JW started dying they changed thier beliefs to all who live will live again.. and created what they call the slave class.. which is every JW after the original 144k will serve the original ones after armegeddon . its soo twisted. they even say the gates of heaven closed in 1935.. lol i asked them to point that out in the bible .. nothing they say they have scriptural back up for.. i enjoy dealing with things like this.. its like an easter egg hunt through the scriptures .. finding goodies and interesting questions to ask them. they have a hge convention with like 10000 JW in portland ME.. I wanted to go and wear a shirt that said APOSTATE on it and just ask questions all day to them and strike up convo and see where the day leads. lol

I have no clue why fish without scales is included in the "things not to eat." Oh, oh, where is that in the Bible about we can eat pork? I'll point it out to my gf and her family.

Oh, man, invisible.... If that's what they believe, I guess I'll have to respect it.

[Kaotic Lazagna]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Bastard just the same, and it IS in the Bible, my grandfather (Presbyterian Minister) said so, many times. I am going to Hell just the same, so I may as well enjoy the trip...

Invisible??? That's hilarious! Sounds like a Cosby standup routine. It doesn't take much to throw most of these cult guys off if one has even the slimmest knowledge of the Bible; it gets to be fun after awhile. My record is intact: I have NEVER sent any of these people away, they always leave on their own accord when they find that they simply don't have the answers. I had the local leader on my step one day; apparently he was sent in to find out why there was so much trouble with members who had come to visit me before, he was gone in 10 minutes.

And they DO change their interpretations to suit the occasion, which just makes them more vulnerable.

Goin' where Nomex is No good...

hahaha, you and Tiny are the only ones that I know that have stump the religious people that go to your door steps. hahaha.

[KCALB SIRAY]

Originally Posted by Kaotic Lazagna

hahaha, you and Tiny are the only ones that I know that have stump the religious people that go to your door steps. hahaha.

when I was just out of school, living in an apartment, I use to get knocks on the doors. After I heard their pitch I would offer them beer and bong hits. Some would take us up on it

[TLyttle]

It just ain't near that hard, KL, all you have to do is pay attention; the shot that they hate most is how interesting it will be to see a vegetarian lion! The quote is there in the Bible, unless the SDAs and JWs have deleted it from THEIR version of the book; again, that is something they are very sensitive about you are best to show up with an original King James Version for comparison, they HATE that.

In fact I see ALL religion as a financial power trip: go look at any Catholic Church to see what I mean, particularly in Europe. The JWs are not much better: have a look at the bricks and mortar of their outlet with its self-contained propaganda machine, where all the Watchtowers are printed. Takes as many bux to support that as it does to support the Vatican....

[TinyGiant]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

It just ain't near that hard, KL, all you have to do is pay attention; the shot that they hate most is how interesting it will be to see a vegetarian lion! The quote is there in the Bible, unless the SDAs and JWs have deleted it from THEIR version of the book; again, that is something they are very sensitive about you are best to show up with an original King James Version for comparison, they HATE that.

In fact I see ALL religion as a financial power trip: go look at any Catholic Church to see what I mean, particularly in Europe. The JWs are not much better: have a look at the bricks and mortar of their outlet with its self-contained propaganda machine, where all the Watchtowers are printed. Takes as many bux to support that as it does to support the Vatican....

thats the thing that i love about my church. their goals is to give more and more away every year. as of now they build houses to give away to families in need who lose their homes to tradgedy like katrina and such. they donate hundreds of backpacks filled with school supplies to kids in families on welfare. they do all sorts of stuff and are hugely focused on supporting the comunity. They dont want to expand the building and want to keep increasing thier budget in order to support more missions, community outreaches and such. There are tons of big money churches out there I totally know what you mean. i've attended a few and there is definitely a different feel. its nice to be part of something that feels right. my church isnt perfect but they have their priorities straight which is awesome.

funny thing about the KJV.. the JW used to sell KJV bibles before they started writing thier own :)

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by Kaotic Lazagna

Why would I want to go to a religion who is intolerant of other religions, and one that sees killing as being "okay".

Check out Baha'i. I'm not a member, nor do I think I will ever be one, but their belief system seems to be much more logical from what I remember from some quick studying I did a few years back.

[TinyGiant]

would you stop believing in math because it its viewed as set in stone too?

for anything to be true some things must be false..

for baha'i to be true Christianity must be false. No religion can be stirred in a Religion Stew with Christianity. you cant be a buddhist and a muslim.. you have to pick one or the other.

[TLyttle]

No problem with that, but in order to pick a religion accurately, one must look at them all equally. In my (much) younger days, I visited many churches, temples, and synagogues with the idea of learning as much as I could about them. End result? I belong to NO church, and I am completely happy with that. I have very little guilt, and if there is a Hell (please, oh please, don't give me another quote from the Bible on that, it doesn't fit into what I am saying here), I'm sure that they haven't reserved the hottest part for me because of how I lived my life.

True? False? All religions are "true" in the eyes of their believers. Go anywhere I went, and the fervent are in every institution, knowing in their hearts that their religion is the "right" one, be they Christian, Muslim, Baha'i, Wiccan, even the late-lamented Church of Monday Night Football!

Personally, I see any church as firstly a control mechanism, secondly as a financial institution, and thirdly as a social club. Control of human behaviour, a money-gathering group with paid employees, and a common ground to meet the neighbours. As time went by, I found that my own sense of right and wrong, my disinterest in money, and my passions and pastimes eliminated my need for church. Many others use the church as a crutch for their lack of character (see JWs for examples).

Have a long look, KL, and you may find that you really don't need a church, either. As far as the "born again" (what went wrong the first time?) girl friend is concerned, I really doubt if the differences between you can be resolved; I have seen it happen before, and the conflict never, ever goes away. Women are like buses: there is always another one coming along in 20 minutes........

[TinyGiant]

its sad that you see churches as that. i think that view is probably based of interaction with churches who dont have their priorities straight.

yes people are paid within the church. but for someone like a pastor/minister to be able to dedicate his time and service 100% he needs an income to be able to live. The bible talks about giving 10% to God.. we get to keep the other 90% .. pretty good deal the way i see it. idk if our church is unique but anyone and everyone can see the complete budget and all members of the church are given the new budget when the new fiscal year starts. if anyone has issues or concerns its hashed out in the annual meeting and resolved. a vast majority of the money that comes into our church goes right back out the door in the food pantry for the homeless/less fortunate, sponsoring missionaries, building homes for those who need them, giving school supplies for needy families.. helping people like myself who had some hardship due to a layoff.. with any community and for any community to thrive it must have the money to sustain itself. Alot of people get hung up on money. Our pastor even discourages people visiting the church from giving an offering, the church doesnt want to viewed as money hungry.. cause thats not what its about.

Christ died for our sins to give us freedom from guilt/sin. The church isnt a control mechanism. well granted there are bad eggs in every situation. but it was never the churches job to control people.

the social club aspect its not really to socialize but to form a community, a group of like minded people searching for the answers and trying to live Godly lives and display God's love for everyone. sadly alot of churches lose sight of this. We are supposed to lovingly keep eachother in check. be genuinely interested in the lives of those around us and help eachother to live better and be good examples for Christ.

KL .. the bible warns us about being unequally yoked.. meaning its best to pair with those who are of one mind. I personally wouldnt go into business with someone who wasnt a Christian beacuse i know at somepoint it would probably cause a problem. in the same way Trying to stay in a relationship that doesnt work beacuse of differences is also futile. God doesnt want us to change people. People have to want to change and change for themselves. Its like those people that hound other people about being christians. God never said that we had to bring people to Christ. Our lives and the way we live and talk should natually bring to the realization of God and all things concerning. sadly modernism has hugely infected Christianity and tries to make workers out of Christians. Changing hearts was never our job and is impossible for us to do. We need to grab a more post-modern perspective and realize that whether a person is a Christian or not has no bearing on our walk with God. We aren't supposed to try to do lots of tasks to try to win our salvation. We are just supposed to live for him and if someone asks for guidance we are to give it .. but I dont think God ever wanted it forced on anyone. why the heck would he give us free will if he didn't want us to use it.

Christianity is the following and exceptance of Jesus Christ/God aka the originator of all things. Wiccans worship the creation.. not the creator, . baha'i teaches that Jesus, Mohammad, Bhuda.. all were correct and they all taught the next messenger. but thats foolsih considering the teachings of each of those people were completely contrary to the next.

here is an interesting thing on the origins of allah.. aka baal
http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread139336/pg1

[TLyttle]

Sorry TinyGiant, I don't buy much of that for the simple reason that you have already made up your mind, and therefore objectivity is now foreign to you. I've seen and heard all this before, from various sources, all claiming to have figured it out, but are still tripped up by their religious fervor. As long as you insist on comparing these other beliefs to the Christian standards and find them wanting, then you are following the same path that keeps the JW and SDAs so obnoxious. Tell me that you are a Christian, fine, but please don't tell me that Christianity is the only route through a worthwhile life.

All the religions look for the same results I mentioned, the only exception being the Muslim religion and their fixation about killing infidels to get to heaven: that one is a sad commentary on a World religion. If one need religion to maintain a productive and benevolent life, that is their choice; for the rest of us who live that way without a religious urge, we are happy just the same.

[TinyGiant]

regardless of what i believe all religions can't be true if they contradict one another. one has to be right.

[Bob Dog]

Actually no one or any religion must be correct; they are appear to be cultural constructs which explain the experience of a greater mind/conciousness, which there is a fairly universal agreement seems to exist, but no one of them is necessarily, or inherently correct.

[HTM Yaris]

When everybody learns to replace God or Budha or Allah or whatever with LOVE , the world will be a better place . When is everybody going to realize that Heaven/Hell is right here , right now . Life is what YOU make of it . Life is making decisions on the circumstances that have manifested before you .
We all go through good times and adversities . It is learning to deal with both that makes people strong or weak .

I believe people will eventually discard all religions . All religions are flawed . Personally I think that God , Allah , Budha , Odin , Zeus , and any other "supreme beings" should get together and duke it out . The last one remaining is the one that we should worship . Instead of letting people think that they are doing their God's bidding by killing each other .That is pathetic and weak . But we all know that won't happen . Religion only exist where there is fear/hatred . Love/knowledge will make all religions extinct .

Every generation gets smarter . There is only one permanent thing in this universe ....Changes .