Fog lamps as back up low beams.

[ellenbetty]

I have been running a sub and an amp since the first day I had my car, and my car has never failed to start in 3 years and 74,000 miles. Original starter, alternator, and battery.

You should have added in nice sunny Southern CA. How much freezing weather do you get in a year? North East Ohio gets below freezing most nights during the winter. Which type of weather is it harder to start a motor? Freezing temperatures or hot sunny days? Motor oil below freezing temperatures does not work nearly as good as motor oil at 100 degrees F. Which burns easier? Warm or cold gasoline? 100 degree F gasoline provides more power to the motor than 20 degree F gasoline.

During start of winter auto mechanics replace a lot of old batteries that will not start the car.

[cali yaris]

36 or more sales of this kit so far, and no one else is experiencing dead batteries. I'm confident the error is not within the instructions.

100 degree F gasoline provides more power to the motor than 20 degree F gasoline.

That is incorrect. Colder air/gas = Denser = more fuel per cc of air = more power.

Cars produce more horsepower on the dyno on colder days.

[CTScott]

ellenbetty, can you take some pictures of all of your wiring points?

I have been in comm with Ray, regarding the instructions and I believe that I have a fix for the switch indicator light always being on. I PM'd it to one of the people who recently installed a kit and mentioned that issue, but he hasn't gotten back to me as to whether he tried it or not.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Get a manual charger and recondition the battery.

[ellenbetty]

Originally Posted by RUFFSTUFF

Get a manual charger and recondition the battery.

My Yarises are parked in the over flow parking lot at the pre-manafactured modular home park where I live. I do not have a place to plug in a manual charger. The loop around the park is only 2 vehicles wide. Unless you are a contractor making home repairs, parking in the street for more than 10 minutes is against park rules. That is why I bought the portable rechargable battery powered jump starter. My guess is that a battery powered jump starter can act as a charger if left on long enough. The idea of staying in the car for a few hours to see how long it takes the battery powered jump starter recharge the battery is the real problem. It would be easier and faster to start or jump start the car and run the motor for a 1/2 hour each day. The problem is the lack of space to put the battery powered jump starter so that the hood can be completely closed.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Originally Posted by ellenbetty

My Yarises are parked in the over flow parking lot at the pre-manafactured modular home park where I live. I do not have a place to plug in a manual charger. The loop around the park is only 2 vehicles wide. Unless you are a contractor making home repairs, parking in the street for more than 10 minutes is against park rules. That is why I bought the portable rechargable battery powered jump starter. My guess is that a battery powered jump starter can act as a charger if left on long enough. The idea of staying in the car for a few hours to see how long it takes the battery powered jump starter recharge the battery is the real problem. It would be easier and faster to start or jump start the car and run the motor for a 1/2 hour each day. The problem is the lack of space to put the battery powered jump starter so that the hood can be completely closed.

The jump starter won't charge your battery much.

[ellenbetty]

With winter coming, and the batteries ending up dead in less than a week, I will have to go out and start each Yaris every other day for at least a 1/2 hour to keep the battery charged. Other wise the dead batteries will freeze. Since it is unsafe to charge a frozen dead battery, I will have to make sure that the batteries do not go dead during this winter.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Originally Posted by ellenbetty

With winter coming, and the batteries ending up dead in less than a week, I will have to go out and start each Yaris every other day for at least a 1/2 hour to keep the battery charged. Other wise the dead batteries will freeze. Since it is unsafe to charge a frozen dead battery, I will have to make sure that the batteries do not go dead during this winter.

I'm telling ya... just letting the car idle won't do much for you if the batteries are already having issues. Alternator output (current) at idle can be as low as 10 amps and will increase with rpm. Just idling your car puts the output of your alternator just above "self-sustaining," there will probably not be enough overhead to get a decent charge on your battery. I believe your research to be incorrect. A 1/2 of driving may show some improvement... a 1/2 hour of idling probably not.


You can check this out:
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tec...5/article.html

[ellenbetty]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

That is incorrect. Colder air/gas = Denser = more fuel per cc of air = more power.

Cars produce more horsepower on the dyno on colder days.

I think you are mistaking the cause of the additional power. Modern cars have sensors that detects the temperature of the gasoline air mix. The car's computer analyzes different sensors to decide the optimal amount of fuel to inject into the motor. More fuel is injected when the air fuel mix temperature is low to aid combustion to provide the additional energy needed to heat all of the fuel air mix for additional production of hp to keep the motor running.

Plus we are talking about the effects of winter on battery charge times. Just like gasoline air combustion has to be at a certain temperature to happen, the chemical reaction to store electrical power in a lead acid battery has a optical temperature range. If the battery temperature is 20 degrees, it takes more energy to charge the battery than if the battery temperature is 90 degrees. A fully discharged battery will freeze at 5 degrees below zero. A frozen battery cannot be safely charged. A frozen battery should be heated to 60 degrees before attempting to charge the battery.

[ellenbetty]

Originally Posted by RUFFSTUFF

I'm telling ya... just letting the car idle won't do much for you if the batteries are already having issues. Alternator output (current) at idle can be as low as 10 amps and will increase with rpm. Just idling your car puts the output of your alternator just above "self-sustaining," there will probably not be enough overhead to get a decent charge on your battery. I believe your research to be incorrect. A 1/2 of driving may show some improvement... a 1/2 hour of idling probably not.


You can check this out:
http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/tec...5/article.html

I tried that link. it does not work.

[RUFFSTUFF]

That's strange... it works fine for me...


"http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43835/article.html"

[ellenbetty]

Originally Posted by RUFFSTUFF

That's strange... it works fine for me...


"http://www.edmunds.com/ownership/techcenter/articles/43835/article.html"

I was able to get the link to work by stripping off the " and then pasting a copy up where the web page address is displayed on my PC.

After reading the page, and checking several additional web sites, there is not agreement on how long it takes a car to fully charge a battery. It sounds like it would be a good idea to go with the more conservative points of view.

Based upon my experiences of the last two months, after reading additional view points on the Internet, I have decided to change my view point on how long to let the motor idle to charge the battery. A idle of 1/2 hour will charge the battery enough to restart the vehicle. Fast idle (putting foot on the gas peddle) works better than letting the motor's computer control the idle speed. The longest view I read was that it takes 120 minutes of non stop driving or 120 minutes of fast idling, to fully charge a car battery.

Some people think there are risks to fast idling for prolong time to charge a auto battery. Wearing out the brushes in the alternator is one problem that will occur. Wear on the motor will occur. Plus the risk of overheating the motor or alternator is greater when a vehicle is fast idling.

Since I have figured out a way to hook up the battery powered starter to charge the battery, while still being able to close the hood of the Yaris, by attaching the ground cable of the battery charger on the other side of the Yaris frame, my next experiment will be to see how long it will take the battery powered jump starter to charge the car battery enough to start the car. Keeping a 40% charge would greatly reduce the risk of a frozen battery in the coldest winter weather here in Ohio.

Given how I have reduced the number of social events I have been attending to reduce my chance of contracting the flu, that may be part of the reason my Yarises batteries are not getting driven to keep the batteries charged. Plus I started hypermiling a couple of months ago. Running the motor in a more fuel efficient manner may have a negative effect on the small alternator found in the Yaris ability to keep the batteries charged.

[cali yaris]

you said this:

100 degree F gasoline provides more power to the motor than 20 degree F gasoline.

Sorry but you are wrong there and in post 104:

I think you are mistaking the cause of the additional power. Modern cars have sensors that detects the temperature of the gasoline air mix. The car's computer analyzes different sensors to decide the optimal amount of fuel to inject into the motor. More fuel is injected when the air fuel mix temperature is low to aid combustion to provide the additional energy needed to heat all of the fuel air mix for additional production of hp to keep the motor running.

It's just not so. Sorry. I won't post about it again, this thread was about your batteries, as you said.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

you said this:

It's just not so. Sorry. I won't post about it again, this thread was about your batteries, as you said.

That was just her way of describing how an oxygen sensor or something sensor works... somewhere someday she may be right.


Ellenbetty, you are putting alot of effort into avoiding the obvious. Here's what I see...


1. You installed 2 fog lamp kits because you hate cars without fog lights but you bought 2 used cars without fog lights.
2. Something in both kits is not wired properly but you're not really interested in that.
3. Your batteries are draining and it's getting chilly.
4. You should never ever touch silicone caulk again. If you do, don't take pictures.
5. You don't want to drive your cars because you are afraid of getting sick from zombies.
6. You enjoy some alone time sitting in your car at idle for hours at end.
7. You think jumpstart power packs are magic boxes.
8. You think your car has a gas temp sensor.
9. Did I miss anything?

[ellenbetty]

You forgot number 10. Your mother should have washed your mouth out with soap more often.
1. I installed the fog lamps to extend the life of the low beam filaments.

2. disconnecting the fog lamp kits had zero effect on the problem.

5. It is a waste of gasoline to drive a car at highway speeds for 2 hours just to charge the battery, unless one is being chased by zombies. Most of the energy generated by burning gasoline would be consumed moving the weight of the car and fighting aerodynamic resistance. Running the motor for 2 hours while parked to charge the battery would consume a lot less gasoline.

8. Most modern motors have a temperature sensor in the cylinder block to inform the car's computer what temperature the cylinder block is. If the cylinder block is cold the gasoline will be cold as well.

7. There is quite a bit of difference between the different types of magic, which can be broken down into stage magic, which is based upon the concept of misdirection and misinformation, story telling magic, which is based a child's inability to tell the difference between make believe and reality, and how a battery powered jump starter works.

Inside of the battery powered jump starter is a lead acid battery which works by using electricity, which is made by the movement of free electrons, electrons released by chemical reactions or electrons movement on the surface of metal wires, caused by the movement of conflicting magnetic fields. The one way movement of electrons is used to break the chemical bond between lead and sulfur to create sulfuric acid, a unstable chemical compound used to store electrical energy. The lead acid battery is formed by the arrangement of layers of thin lead plates, held in place by the battery casing. The thin lead plates are surrounded by water mixed with sulfuric acid. The water, combined with how the lead plates are attached to each other in a directional pattern, directs electrons to flow in one of two directions.

A battery powered jump starter is group of components attached to a lead acid battery. When the cables attached to each end of the lead acid battery are attached to another lead acid battery, a circuit is created, permitting the free flow of electrons. The sulfuric acid reacts with the lead plates to release a large number of free electrons which flow in one direction because of the layout of the lead plates in relation to the sulfuric acid. The directional flow of electrons are used to jump the electron flow through the vehicle motor to start the motor.

When the battery powered jump starter is attached to the terminals of a discharged lead acid battery for a prolonged time, the electric power stored in the battery inside of the jump starter will flow into the discharged battery, transferring part of the energy stored in the battery in the jump starter to the discharged automobile battery.

9. Did I miss explaining any thing of importance?

[RUFFSTUFF]

Originally Posted by ellenbetty

You forgot number 10. Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada Yada.

9. Did I miss explaining any thing of importance?

Yeah you forgot to mention that the jump starter has insufficient storage capacity to be effective as a battery charger for your car batteries. It's just another battery used for temporary power.

Extending the life of your "low beam filaments"? Ha That's a good one. We all need to extend the lives of our "low beam filaments" They'll only last what, 10,15,20 years before they burn out... ridiculously short life span.

It's EXHAUST GAS TEMPERATURE SENSOR, not gasoline going into your injectors temperature sensor. Hell, I don't even know if the Yaris has one.

Thanks for the totally enlightening tutorial on lead-acid reactions, but unfortunately it was wasted on me. After 19 years in the Department of Defense Nuclear Power Program I know just a little bit about electricity, so I'm going to take a few moments of my precious time to explain how a storage battery really works. Pull up a chair and get comfortable.

The most common storage battery is the lead-acid storage battery. The battery is made of a series of cells. Each cell is constructed of alternating lead oxide (PbO2) and spongy lead (Pb) plates immersed in an electrolyte solution of dilute sulfuric acid (H2SO4). The basic chemical reaction occurring at the negative plate when the cell discharges is the loss of electrons by lead (oxidation).

Pb + SO42− → PbSO4 + 2e−

At the positive plate, lead oxide gains electrons and passes into solution as Pb2+ ions (reduction). The Pb2+ ions combine with SO42- ions again forming PbSO4.
In the equation above which I can't show fully thanks to VBulletin, excess of electrons is produced at the negative plate and that electrons are consumed at the positive plate. Thus, a flow of electrons (current) occurs when an external path is provided between the negative and positive plates. The equations also show that as the cell discharges, a coating of insoluble lead sulfate (PbSO4) builds up on both the positive and negative plates. The PbSO4 causes an expansion of the materials into the voids or pores of the plates and results in a gradual clogging. If discharges are prolonged, excessive expansion may take place with the result that the plate may swell, creating mechanical stresses which reduce battery life. To minimize this condition, care must be taken to avoid discharging any cell beyond the low voltage limit. This is the point where your Yaris battery is dead and you a sitting in the parking lot trying to charge it at idle. Another effect during discharge is the consumption of SO42-, causing the acid concentration of the electrolyte to decrease. This results in a decrease in the specific gravity of the electrolyte. When so much of the active material has been converted into lead sulfate that the cell can no longer produce sufficient current, the cell is discharged.
If the discharged cell is properly connected to a d-c charging source of slightly higher than battery voltage, a current will flow through the cell in the opposite direction to that of discharge, and the cell is charging. On charge, lead sulfate goes to lead at the negative plate and to lead oxide at the positive plate, resulting in a reduction in weight and a gain in porosity of the plates. At the same time, the sulfate is restored to the electrolyte with the result that the specific gravity of the electrolyte increases.

[RUFFSTUFF]

Since the amount of sulfuric acid combining with the plates at any time during discharge is in direct proportion to the ampere-hours of discharge, the specific gravity of the electrolyte is a guide in determining the state of discharge of the lead-acid cell. The ratio of the weight of a certain volume of liquid to the weight of the same volume of water is called the specific gravity of the liquid. The specific gravity of pure water is 1.000. Sulfuric acid has a specific gravity of 1.830; thus, sulfuric acid is 1.830 times as heavy as water. The specific gravity of a mixture of sulfuric acid and water varies with the strength of the solution from 1.000 to 1.830. The specific gravity of the electrolyte in sample pilot cells is routinely measured to determine the state of charge of the battery. The specific gravity of the electrolyte is affected by temperature. The electrolyte expands and becomes less dense when heated and its specific gravity reading is lowered. The electrolyte contracts and becomes denser when cooled and its specific gravity reading is raised. Hydrometers used to measure specific gravity are calibrated at a specific temperature and are provided with a temperature correction factor, which must be applied to obtain correct readings when used at other than the calibrated temperature. But since we are talking primarily about maintenance free batteries, Hydrometers aren't a factor. The addition of sulfuric acid to a discharged lead-acid cell does not recharge the cell. Adding acid only increases the specific gravity of the electrolyte and does not convert the lead sulfate on the plates back into active material and consequently does not bring the cell back to a charged condition. A charging current must be passed through the cell to recharge it. As a cell charging operation nears completion, hydrogen and oxygen gases evolve. During discharge and idle periods, only hydrogen is produced in significant quantities.

I could go on about Hydrogen, Temperature Voltage Gassing and Maximum Cell Voltage, but It's early and I don't feel like it.

[RUFFSTUFF]

If you like I can refer you to the Department Of Energy Technical Standard on Electrical Science, it's only about 550 pages DOE-HDBK-1011/1-92 through DOE-HDBK-1011/4-92... a bit of light reading.