The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[TLyttle]

Just heard a book review that should be of interest to JBougie: "Empire of Illusion" by Chris Hedges; I can hardly wait to find a copy. If you want a preview, Google "The Current", and look up the title. Worth a try, but I think J's mind is already made up...

[ChinoCharles]

Easy to argue against giving tens of millions of uninsured Americans access to cheaper health care when you're on Medicare, isn't it, old cranky people? Go home. Matlock is on in 10 minutes.

Tea Party whackos don't want reform. At all. Well, I'm sorry, let me rephrase... THEY don't know what they want. They listen to the guy in the corner. With the suit. And the fat wallet. He knows best, and he bought lunch.

Most of these bumbling morons don't have the IQ required to understand the issues at hand. You can tell when they argue. Intelligent people can convey a point without spitting and waving fingers. That is the difference between civil discourse and lunacy. That guy that got in Arlen Specter's face today could barely complete a sentence. He sounded like he had a mouthful of bouncy balls. Elmer Fudd with a brochure of talking points. Point is it isn't about the issues. They just don't like the black guy telling them what is best, even if he is the smartest one in the room. If Obama was old, white and southern, the right would be all over it.

I hope all of these people get cancer and get dropped from their coverage.

My family (like a lot of well-educated, well-to-do democratic families with strong blue-collar roots) are talking about leaving the country that the right is now busy ruining. I hear Canada is lovely. If this shit persists, I won't subject my children to a society where morons like this walk the streets, apparently in droves. Who knew?

With every passing day, I come closer to being ashamed of my country. I wish Dems would tell Republicans to climb a tree and get a good view while we pass this bill along party lines. I couldn't care less what a Republican has to say right now. They gave us Bush AND Palin! Every side has morons (Pelosi) but theirs are BAAAAAAAD.

OK, I feel better now. Back to Yarii!

[ChinoCharles]

One more thing... a friend brought it to my attention. I'm talking about the far right. Shoot, the far left pisses me off too. The ones in the middle are all OK by me, and for the record I don't consider myself to be a radical liberal.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

Easy to argue against giving tens of millions of uninsured Americans access to cheaper health care when you're on Medicare, isn't it, old cranky people? Go home. Matlock is on in 10 minutes.

Tea Party whackos don't want reform. At all. Well, I'm sorry, let me rephrase... THEY don't know what they want. They listen to the guy in the corner. With the suit. And the fat wallet. He knows best, and he bought lunch.

Most of these bumbling morons don't have the IQ required to understand the issues at hand. You can tell when they argue. Intelligent people can convey a point without spitting and waving fingers. That is the difference between civil discourse and lunacy. That guy that got in Arlen Specter's face today could barely complete a sentence. He sounded like he had a mouthful of bouncy balls. Elmer Fudd with a brochure of talking points. Point is it isn't about the issues. They just don't like the black guy telling them what is best, even if he is the smartest one in the room. If Obama was old, white and southern, the right would be all over it.

I hope all of these people get cancer and get dropped from their coverage.

My family (like a lot of well-educated, well-to-do democratic families with strong blue-collar roots) are talking about leaving the country that the right is now busy ruining. I hear Canada is lovely. If this shit persists, I won't subject my children to a society where morons like this walk the streets, apparently in droves. Who knew?

With every passing day, I come closer to being ashamed of my country. I wish Dems would tell Republicans to climb a tree and get a good view while we pass this bill along party lines. I couldn't care less what a Republican has to say right now. They gave us Bush AND Palin! Every side has morons (Pelosi) but theirs are BAAAAAAAD.

OK, I feel better now. Back to Yarii!

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

One more thing... a friend brought it to my attention. I'm talking about the far right. Shoot, the far left pisses me off too. The ones in the middle are all OK by me, and for the record I don't consider myself to be a radical liberal.

Wow, I don't know where to start. First off, you are a radical liberal based on the first post.

Second, you clearly haven't read the bill. Neither has anyone else in this country who supports it.

I'm tired of all the liberals so entranced by Obama's repetitive talking points
that give no information and details on the plan while blindly following the "change" because it must be better because he says so. He says the same things everyday. "You can keep your plan"...blah, blah, blah.

Obama is either lying with a bold face or hasn't read the bill himself. In fact, it's both.

READ THE BILL FOLKS!!!

There are so many things in there that you wouldn't believe could be implemented in America.

The bill clearly states that...

- rationing care for the elderly WILL take place (your parents and grandparents). They will receive end of life counseling instead of life saving treatment deemed too expensive by a bureaucrat.

- you WILL lose you private health plan and be forced onto the government plan as soon as you fall off you current plan for any reason (change job, employer changes, ect.).

- Private companies WILL die off as they are forced to compete with a system that doesn't need to profit and can go into infinite debt.

- Specialists will become very difficult to find and see as government will force an increase on primary/general care to save money. General practitioners often miss and misdiagnose that specialists find.

- Doctors and other medical workers will begin to leave or not enter health care because of lesser compensation and increased bureaucracy.

- Your taxes WILL go up to pay for the 10's of millions added to the system (even for the coverage of 10 million illegal aliens). There's not enough evil wealthy people in the world to pay for it all which the bill says it will raise taxes significantly. These include small business owners which will have to lay off millions of workers as a result. No problem.
It's actually poor people who employ everyone anyway.

I could go on and on but I need sleep.

Liberals don't think. All they see is "hope and change" and history being made with a black man in office. Therefore we must support him and his policies blindly. Anyone who criticizes him is racist. It's a good thing Bush wasn't criticized because imagine all the racists!

God help us.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

Wow, I don't know where to start. First off, you are a radical liberal based on the first post.

Second, you clearly haven't read the bill. Neither has anyone else in this country who supports it.

I'm tired of all the liberals so entranced by Obama's repetitive talking points
that give no information and details on the plan while blindly following the "change" because it must be better because he says so. He says the same things everyday. "You can keep your plan"...blah, blah, blah.

Obama is either lying with a bold face or hasn't read the bill himself. In fact, it's both.

READ THE BILL FOLKS!!!

There are so many things in there that you wouldn't believe could be implemented in America.

The bill clearly states that...

- rationing care for the elderly WILL take place (your parents and grandparents). They will receive end of life counseling instead of life saving treatment deemed too expensive by a bureaucrat.

- you WILL lose you private health plan and be forced onto the government plan as soon as you fall off you current plan for any reason (change job, employer changes, ect.).

- Private companies WILL die off as they are forced to compete with a system that doesn't need to profit and can go into infinite debt.

- Specialists will become very difficult to find and see as government will force an increase on primary/general care to save money. General practitioners often miss and misdiagnose that specialists find.

- Doctors and other medical workers will begin to leave or not enter health care because of lesser compensation and increased bureaucracy.

- Your taxes WILL go up to pay for the 10's of millions added to the system (even for the coverage of 10 million illegal aliens). There's not enough evil wealthy people in the world to pay for it all which the bill says it will raise taxes significantly. These include small business owners which will have to lay off millions of workers as a result. No problem.
It's actually poor people who employ everyone anyway.

I could go on and on but I need sleep.

Liberals don't think. All they see is "hope and change" and history being made with a black man in office. Therefore we must support him and his policies blindly. Anyone who criticizes him is racist. It's a good thing Bush wasn't criticized because imagine all the racists!

God help us.

Today, I realized how screwed we are.

They are having problems acquiring the promised funding of $225million from the Feds to deploy National Guard troops to the border for BORDER SECURITY (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/...l_guard_border) ... however, in NY the Feds gave $140million dollars to 'poor' kids so they could get school supplies. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/200...e_its_fre.html

Getting kids crayons is more important than the f'n security of our country?! Are you kidding me?!

[Malaya1221]

Originally Posted by JBougie

Today, I realized how screwed we are.

They are having problems acquiring the promised funding of $225million from the Feds to deploy National Guard troops to the border for BORDER SECURITY (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/...l_guard_border) ... however, in NY the Feds gave $140million dollars to 'poor' kids so they could get school supplies. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/200...e_its_fre.html

Getting kids crayons is more important than the f'n security of our country?! Are you kidding me?!

yes, education is more important!

i agree that people/big corporations are insane, for spending millions of dollars in ads spreading lies about the health care reform!

they might as well put all those monies to the "border security" funds!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_health_care

[TLyttle]

Good posts, Charles, very good perspective...

Cranky and old usually has to do with big errors being committed, combined with decades of experience, and maybe cranky old buggers should be listened to, at least for the perspective.

[2+2]

It's death panels hiding outside people's windows looking for any sign of weakness that bothers me. lol But maybe there's a business opportunity here, teaching people how to look healthy 24/7 so their government doesn't haul them away.

Are the people sounding off at these town hall meetings for real? Someone is paying them to act like that, right? Gotta be. We can't be that stupid, we just can't.

We didn't let Wall St take over social security because we knew they're muck it up, and that was even before they screwed up the world economy. So why do we tolerate Wall St running our health care system?

[TLyttle]

Yeah, those damn Liberals, clearly they don't think. I mean, why would any form of compassion be part of the system? And those illegals, why are they there, taking jobs that legals simply will not do? How inconsiderate of them!

And imagine the taxes going up! Why should the US pay near World price for fuel if it is in taxes going to health care? Or cigarettes? Or beer?? Oh, the horror! Fact is, Canadians go into the US to buy these commodities to avoid the taxes charged by the Canadian government, and therefore damage their own health care system and worse, their own health. Americans don't seem to mind paying taxes to run wars, but rebel at the thought that taxes would pay for equitable health care; I guess that makes sense, just not to me is all.

And I really don't see where race has anything to do with it, but I guess that is a Liberal outlook, sorry...

[Bob Dog]

Big business playing little suckers

[NJBob]

It's a stinking shame that healthcare quality would diminish as healthcare officials will make less money. You'd hope that doctors and nurses and dentists become so because of their need to help mankind...not because of the money. I guess we haven't evolved as much as I thought.

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by NJBob

It's a stinking shame that healthcare quality would diminish as healthcare officials will make less money. You'd hope that doctors and nurses and dentists become so because of their need to help mankind...not because of the money. I guess we haven't evolved as much as I thought.

Would you go to school for 8 hard extra years + interning and rack up a typical $300,000 in loans only to make an average living afterward?

[Kal-El]

A question for the liberals. Would any of you honestly travel outside of the US for medical treatment? It's a really simple question.

Honestly, I don't expect the left to answer because the debate would be over.

[ChinoCharles]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

A question for the liberals. Would any of you honestly travel outside of the US for medical treatment? It's a really simple question.

Honestly, I don't expect the left to answer because the debate would be over.

No, I wouldn't. What difference does it make?

And no, I'm not a "radical liberal." I just don't understand how anyone in their right mind (no pun intended) can look at the health care systems in other countries and think ours makes a stitch of sense. I'm not just drinking BO's kool aid on this. I think he's missing some big points in all of this. Nobody is talking about tort reform, and thats kind of baffling, but I'm still content to do the best we can. Nothing isn't the best we can.

Of course, we have "the best health care in the world." Please! We have the best DOCTORS and NURSES in the world, no doubt. Health care? I don't think so. Typical American ethnocentrism... talk about a preexisting condition. Can't take a good example from another country because if you aren't under the stars and stripes, you don't matter. Wake up. This is working seemingly everywhere but here.

[Bob Dog]

Read the bill? There is no bill. The are three proposed bills, all different. What you are presenting is corporate dog slop pretending to be T-bone. For eight years you foolish neocons swallowed any kind of nonsense that big money was able to construct and promolgate as long as it appealed to your sheepish sensibilities. It left our nation and our empire pretty much in ruin, as both were looted by corporate greed. Heaven help us if doctors make less money.. They only make about 40 times what a minimum wage earner makes, and about 10 times the median household income of an average american family.They what you to believe that anybody who would reduce the cash flow into their big deep pockets is evil and bent on your destruction and they're ready to spend hundreds of millions to convince you that it is so. Its sucker bait, and darned if you don't bite on it everytime.

[Bob Dog]

Hell yes, and don't go calling me a liberal just because I am not a fool and a sucker for the corporate propaganda machine.

[RedRide]

There is no "biil" to read, only corporate/right wing lies!

There is now an unholy alliance between those who hate Obama and the health care insurance industry lobby. They both are propogating nothing but the most rediculous lies in attempts kill any sort of healt care reform.

The fact the health care insurance industry in behind all the lies is well doumented and can't be denied by anyone who has a couple of brain cells and seeks the truth!

[TLyttle]

Kal-El asks a couple of questions there: No one is denying that doctors work hard to get their degrees, but so do engineers, nurses, and many others whose purported goal is as lofty as a doctor's. Most of them do NOT make as much as doctors do. And please don't tell me that all doctors are worth the money they make: even without living down there, I have seen many examples of MDs that I wouldn't let work on a cow. They were the ones who chose their profession, and mouthed the Hippocratic Oath, with the dollar signs dancing in their eyes. Canadian doctors make good money as well, but they somehow remember that helping people is what it is really all about.

As far as travelling outside the US is concerned, let us tell you one more time: the US system is 40% more expensive than the Canadian system (and EVERYONE is covered) with no difference in competence. We don't all live in igloos here, sir, and have paved roads; our hospitals are as up-to-date as most in the US with as many competent physicians and nurses on staff. Perhaps you should do a bit more research, develop some perspective on this subject simply by learning how the rest of the world operates. Not all your medical research should come from Faux News....