Guns

[*MAD DOG*]

So most people with a glock would have a bullet in the chamber after cocking the gun and putting on the trigger safety?

[Nigal]

Originally Posted by *MAD DOG*

Ok gun nuts i have a few questions for you.

Here where i live we have a real hard time trying to qualify for a thing called a shooters license. However, in CA anyone with id can get a gun and shoot till your finger don't work no more at a shooting range.

Anyway my question is....

With a glock 9mm, when you put a new cart/mag in and take off the safety, is it true that you have to cock it before you can fire? Otherwise there would be no round in the chamber right?

Police where i live use revolvers so they can just draw and shoot if need be. With a glock you cant just draw and shoot, you need to cock it first. So if someone is pointing a revolver at a policeman and a policeman has only a glock 9mm on him, technically wouldnt the person with the revolver win because the policeman has to get his gun out of his holster, then using two hands cock the weapon before he can fire, whereas the person with the revolver just needs to point and shoot.

Am i right? If so, why the f do the police here want to "upgrade" from a revolver to a glock (apart from being able to have more ammo in the gun)?

Or do people with a glock leave it cocked in there holster with safety on?

Just wondering because i love guns, i don't own any but have always appreciated the US approach to the right to bear arms.

After you pull the slide back and load a round the Glock is ready to fire. The only safety on a Glock is the trigger safety. There is no safety to be put on or taken off. You have a round in the pipe and you simply squeeze the trigger. You automatically squeeze the trigger safety as you draw the trigger back. This makes it naturally safer and faster than a revolver because with a revolver you either have to cock the hammer on a single action or draw the trigger through a much harder double action trigger.

btw- "Gun nut" is seen as a derogatory term with gun owners.

[stuffy]

Originally Posted by MadMax

Convince yourself all you want, but once again you are not basing your assumptions on facts and once again you are wrong! Texas is ranked 20th out of 50 for per capita GDP based on United States Bureau of Economic Analysis (BEA) data from 2006. I am sure you can do the math, 20th out of 50 is not below average.

I am sure you would be upset if someone generalized that all Canadians are pacifists, boring, uncritical (with a few exceptions), socialist, anti-gun, non-patriotic, resentful towards success and are blindly and obsessively anti-American. Plus, you lack culture...have you ever heard of anyone eating at a Canadian restaurant or driving a Canadian car? I suspect you would be, and I could understand why. I was lucky enough to work with the Canadian military on several occassions while with NATO, and I am good friends with the Canadian liaison officer at the organization where I work; so I know those sterotypes aren't always true. So do us all a favor and quit making generalizations about a place you most likely have never been to and one you know nothing about. Or, if you feel you must continue to do so, try doing a little research first and back up your claims with facts. Otherwise, you just end up looking like a jerk!

the numbers i saw had texas ranked 30th in gsp per capita, not 20th. could have been older numbers i was looking at.
if that's the case, i stand corrected. i'm not researching a thesis here, just talking on a forum.
i still stand by the connection of lower income and high crime rates- this applies to canada and texas

my comments were in no way meant to insult the state of texas, they were directed at the comment that texas has a low crime rate because of the high rate of gun ownership in the state.
this is just not true, and regardless of whether texas is 3rd or 12th, the crime rate is high compared to the rest of the united states.

i could care less if you want to generalize about canada or canadians- this just isn't what i was doing concerning texas, if you took it that way you're just a bit too sensitive.

if it needs being said to massage a fragile ego, i think the u.s. is a great country that canada shares a lot more in common with than not,
and yes, never been to texas but i'm sure it's just as great as the rest of the country (which i do visit on a regular basis).

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by camelll

Somebody already stated in this thread the best line about gun ownership. "I would rather have and not need then to need and not have". Oh yeah and I have seen to many zombie movies!

Yep. we made the same comparisons when it came to parachutes.

As for carrying a semi-auto in 'Condition 1' (with a round in the pipe), it is the only way to carry a semi-auto for self-defense! Some people are concerned about accidental/negligent discharges; but they should be more concerned about the ready state of their weapon if they need it! I carry my XD with 13+1, a full magazine plus one in the chamber. It has a double safety, one in the grip and a second in the trigger; but yes both are activated by grabbing the weapon to shoot it. That is why the #1 rule in gun safety is to keep your finger off the trigger until you are ready to shoot.

But to answer Mad Dog's (no relation) question, when you load a semi auto pistol there will not be a round chambered unless the slide is locked backward from the last round of the previous magazine (or it has been manually locked back). A round will chamber when you release the slide and it moves forward. As a matter of fact, that is how you put a weapon into 'Condition 1,' you load a full magazine, chamber a round by cycling the slide, then you release the magazine and add another round to it to replace the one that is now chambered.

Most police departments have gone from revolvers to semi-automatics because the latter has a greater capacity (between 7 to 13 rounds per magazine, plus one in the chamber). Earlier semi-autos were not as reliable as revolvers, but that is no longer the case. I have at least 1500-2000 rounds through my XD45 without a single failure to feed or extract. That gun has been put through the torture test without a single problem. Newer models now are available with a third safety on the slide, but that is only to make it more idiot-proof as the best safety a person can have is between their ears! I want the ability to draw and fire my weapon without having to add a step to take off a safety, which is why I carry an XD and not one of my M1911s.

Finally, the term 'gun nut' is somewhat derogatory (most prefer 'gun enthusiast') but it doesn't bother me that much. I would rather be a 'gun nut' than 'a nut with guns!'

And despite what Stuffy says, he was making unsubstantiated remarks about Texas and whereas that may fly up in Canada, folks down here don't take kindly to false accusations. He can make all the claims he wants, but the facts speak the truths; and if anyone is interested in the truth, I would suggest reading the official state analysis of crime available here. Yes, it does show that the number of crimes has gone up slightly; but considering the mass influx of residents moving here the averages are actually decreasing, and that trend has been continuing since 1993 (see pg 7).

Sorry pal, but the rule down here is that you have to back up what you say!

Cheers! M2

[Nigal]

I always liked...

"Better to be judged by 12 than carried by 6."

[MadMax]

I would highly suggest you go back and read the Gun Facts document I referenced earlier. Maybe that way you'll actually have some facts to study, instead of the anti-gun hyperbol you seem to readily accept!

FACT: In Texas, murder rates fell 50% faster than the national average in the year after their concealed carry law passed. Rape rates fell 93% faster in the first year after enactment, and 500% faster in the second. Assaults fell 250% faster in the second year.

(Sources: Bureau of Justice Statistics, online database, reviewing Texas and U.S. violent crime from 1995-2001 and John Lott, David Mustard: This study involved county level crime statistics from all 3,054 counties in the U.S., from 1977 through 1992. During this time ten states adopted right-to-carry laws. It is estimated that if all states had adopted right-to-carry laws, in 1992 the US would have avoided 1,400 murders, 4,200 rapes, 12,000 robberies, 60,000 aggravated assaults – and saved over $5,000,000,000 in victim expenses.)

Emphasis mine.

So, I've presented my facts; where are yours?

Cheers! M2

[stuffy]

Originally Posted by MadMax

I would highly suggest you go back and read the Gun Facts document I referenced earlier. Maybe that way you'll actually have some facts to study, instead of the anti-gun hyperbol you seem to readily accept!



Emphasis mine.

So, I've presented my facts; where are yours?

Cheers! M2

if you're addressing me i think you've misunderstood me to some extent.

firstly, i don't think i ever stated an "anti-gun" stance in this thread, where you got this from....not sure.

secondly, i have backed up what i said, perhaps i was overemphasizing by making a statement like "one of the highest crime rates in the u.s.", which is not untrue. overstated perhaps, but true.

thirdly, i was talking about median family incomes in which texas falls below the national average. this was to illustrate a connection between poverty and crime (this was in no way meant to suggest that everyone in texas is poor if that's how you took it). i could look up a bunch of studies to back this up but i really can't be bothered, the reality is that poorer regions tend to have a higher crime rate. i'll take this as a given, if you don't....oh well.
(gdp was your thing, not mine)

if a connection can be conclusively made concerning a drop in crime to gun carry laws, i would be surprised.
it's definitely going to take more than one study to convince me.
there seems to be a bunch of studies on both sides concerning liberal gun laws and there are so many other influencing factors on crime rates.

[MadMax]

You obviously aren't reading my posts. I have included numerous sources that show there is a link between allowing people to legally conceal carry and a drop in crime. The document I posted a link to referenced several studies so be prepared for a bit of a shock...there is a positive correlation between being able to arm yourself and crime! You can ignore the truth all you want (you have yet to back up any of your claims with research data); but I am letting the facts speak for themselves. It may be a waste of time in trying to get you to change your opinion, but I want to make sure the rest of the people reading this thread have the right data in which to make an informed opinion.

About all you have done is insulted me, calling me "sensitive" and a having a "fragile ego" that needed massaging; but all I countered with was easily obtainable information to support my points. It did not require a thesis-level effort to compile (I am finishing my second graduate degree, so I am somewhat familiar with what it takes to complete a thesis); but simply a basic understanding of how to properly use the Internet and a little desire for the truth. Oh, and about 5-10 minutes of my time. If you can't be bothered to read any of the references I have included, then you will never change your mind and that my friend is the pure definition of ignorance; but hopefully others will take the time to do so and can be enlightened to the realities of the situation, and not the opinionated and unsubstantiated misinformation spewed in your posts!

Sorry, but you’ve brought a plastic spoon to a gunfight! Either arm yourself with some real facts and references, or call it a day and go home. This may just be an Internet forum, but that doesn’t mean it can’t contained informative discussion. If you are going to state an opinion, then caveat it as such, and quit acting as if it is a proven fact!

[SailDesign]

Stuffy,
Here is an article from the NCPA (NAtional Center for Policy Analysis) from 2001. A you may see from earlier posts, MadMax and I don't see eye to eye on everything, but this would seem to prove his point.

Link: http://www.ncpa.org/pi/crime/pdcrm/pdcrm20.htm

************************************************** ****

Concealed Carry Laws Reduce Crime


Major crime fell dramatically in states which have legalized the carrying of concealed handguns, according to a comprehensive new study at the University of Chicago.

For the first time, researchers analyzed crime statistics for all 3,054 counties in the United Sates between 1977 and 1992, according to one of the authors of the unpublished study, Professor John Lott. After adjusting for a general fall in crime rates, the study found that:

In the 31 states that now have "concealed right to carry" laws, murders were down, on average, by 8.5 percent.

Rapes were down 5 percent and serious assaults by 7 percent.

In cities with populations of more than 250,000, murder rates dropped after the passage of such laws by an average of 13.5 percent.
According to the study, the fall in crime did not result from an increased use of guns, but from potential criminals avoiding confrontations. In fact, criminals apparently shifted to lower-risk offenses, since property crimes increased in those states. Other findings included:

The most dramatic falls in murder rates were in areas where the number of women carrying firearms was high.

The study found that for every woman who carries a concealed hand, the murder rate fell by three to four times more than it would have if one more man had carried a concealed gun.

If states with concealed handgun bans had allowed them in 1992, about 1,570 murders, 4,177 rapes and more than 60,000 aggravated assaults would have been avoided.
In addition, the researchers found no evidence of an increase in accidental killings or suicides in states with concealed carry laws.

Sources: Ian Katz, "'Gun Law' Cuts Crime Rate, US Study Finds," Guardian, August 3, 1996, and Dennis Cauchon, "Study: Weapons Laws Deter Crime: Fewer Rapes, Murders Found Where Concealed Guns Legal," USA Today, August 2, 1996.

[darthbauer]

Or how about we drop the talk of rather or not CCW helps prevent crime and just focus on the guns.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by darthbauer

Or how about we drop the talk of rather or not CCW helps prevent crime and just focus on the guns.

Sounds good to me!

[stuffy]

oh yes, i did insult you madmax. directly i might add, but only after your passive-aggressive attempt at insulting me by way of my country.
it's not my fault if you originally took offense where there was none.

your position is well entrenched, mine is not. i'm pretty much on the fence here.
the original exception i took was simply a statement that said crime rates in texas were low because of liberal gun laws, well i simply stated that crime rates were not low in texas when compared to the rest of the country.

there are plenty of studies on both sides of gun argument, and i for one will take them all with a grain of salt because there are a load of societal factors which weigh in on crime and gun crime specifically. many studies are funded by lobbyists from both sides and you have to question their integrity (well i do anyway)
i never once said that i believe the prevalence of guns within a society equals more crime-if this were the case then switzerland would be a hell-hole.
this seems to be what you think my position is.
but i also don't fully believe that they are a deterent.

[stuffy]

Originally Posted by darthbauer

Or how about we drop the talk of rather or not CCW helps prevent crime and just focus on the guns.

agreed. sorry for my part in the direction this thread took.

[floydisrock]

I wouldn't carry a 9 mm for self defense.
I'd much prefer my Taurus .41 magnum revolver,or my .45 xd.
The wife can shoot either just as easily as a 9mm.

[SailDesign]

Here's my Winchester.

[Bob_VT]

Originally Posted by SailDesign

Here's my Winchester.

That Winchester is a sniper rifle Dam that is a great gun.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by Bob_VT

That Winchester is a sniper rifle Dam that is a great gun.

Yup! The only gun I ever liked more was a VERY expensive Rem 40X in .22 that just couldn't miss the bull. Sadly, its owner liked it too.

[darthbauer]

I'll take some pics of my other guns when I get home tonight.