The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[mo_feezy]

I'm pretty sure you are just really, really misinformed about wait times for things, and on these death panel ideas. Sure there are examples of people waiting longer than people wait on average in the U.S., but that is because we only count those with health insurance. Those without insurance NEVER get that surgery they need. And you didn't address my last point in its entirety. All of these problems you are claiming happen here too under the current system. We can claim lower wait times because we don't count the wait times for the 50% of insured Americans who have their claims denied by the huge bureaucracies in the insurance industry. It's just simple manipulation of the numbers and you are wholeheartedly buying into it.

This stuff has been covered ad nauseum all over the media and the internet, but if you are only getting your news from fox, you are not seeing that side of the story.

What I don't understand is why people are so critical of government involvement in this context but not when it comes to wiretapping, the suspension of habeas corpus, etc. Conservatives willingly supported the previous administration who were unabashed liars, crooks, and straight up criminals, but now the country is falling apart because the government wants to play the health insurance game? Ha!

When I look at the inefficiencies of the U.S. government, I almost always see the corporate (private and public business) side of it as being just as bad, if not worse. As a conservative, I am sure you have absolutely no idea of what it's like to be led around blindly. right? Yeah, right. In fact, you probably don't notice the conflict of interest between what you just happen to think is the right way to do things like healthcare, and the fact that the people paying for your movement have a financial stake in winning this issue.

My head is about to explode over this stupidity.

at least we can agree on this quote...

and just to clarify, having the best medical research facilities and training does not mean we have the best healthcare in the world. 99.9% of us could NEVER afford the cutting edge, high-tech health care that is being studied in these medical schools and facilities. Mainly, because our private insurance companies (for those of us wealthy enough to have insurance, and not have out claims denied) only allow us to see certain doctors. And i'll give you a guess as to where those doctors fall into the spectrum from cream of the crop to bottom of the barrel.

[mo_feezy]

this is another example of why liberal politicians must promote change to be successful, while conservatives (by their very identity) only need to prevent change from happening to be successful.

[ChinoCharles]

Canada is infamous with loooong waiting times

We have Canadians on this forum. Is this true? Chime in. This is reasonable for elective surgery, but not for life-threatening surgeries.

In Great Britain, they are already denying things like breast cancer treatment for women leaving them to die.

Could you find some examples of this from reputable sources, please? This statement contradicts everything I have read or studied on the matter.

People, we are quickly losing our country

Who is this "we?" Did you say this 5 years ago when Dick Cheney was marching through our constitution like Sherman through Atlanta?

The place where individual freedom and liberty has created the greatest level of wealth and prosperity

Enron execs, Bernie Madoff, and insurance company CEO's would all wholeheartedly agree. A stronger SEC may have stopped the former 2, but hey... thats too controlling, right? Tell that to the thousands of people that had their life's work stolen from them. Tell them all of this freedom is a beautiful thing. Better yet, ask them if THEY feel free?

Free to be robbed.

If you have to take some of MY personal liberties to ensure my countrymen can't be pawned off by those more fortunate than them, for God's sake, please do! Take my liberties! Take that measely, insignificant 5 or 10 percent of my frickin' income. If it means I see one less person living in their car after the system raped them of everything they had, its 5% well spent.

THAT is patriotism. Our soldiers are patriots because they sacrifice self for the greater good. We could do that more here at home, too.

[Bob Dog]

here, here !

[JBougie]

TLyttle - what % do you pay in taxes? All taxes - at all government levels, what is your income tax % (like here in Minnesota, our sales tax is 6.5% and they take about 16% of my paycheck in various taxes), and what is your sales tax amounts? I am trying to add up some figures.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

We have Canadians on this forum. Is this true? Chime in. This is reasonable for elective surgery, but not for life-threatening surgeries.

Could you find some examples of this from reputable sources, please? This statement contradicts everything I have read or studied on the matter.

Who is this "we?" Did you say this 5 years ago when Dick Cheney was marching through our constitution like Sherman through Atlanta?

Enron execs, Bernie Madoff, and insurance company CEO's would all wholeheartedly agree. A stronger SEC may have stopped the former 2, but hey... thats too controlling, right? Tell that to the thousands of people that had their life's work stolen from them. Tell them all of this freedom is a beautiful thing. Better yet, ask them if THEY feel free?

Free to be robbed.

If you have to take some of MY personal liberties to ensure my countrymen can't be pawned off by those more fortunate than them, for God's sake, please do! Take my liberties! Take that measely, insignificant 5 or 10 percent of my frickin' income. If it means I see one less person living in their car after the system raped them of everything they had, its 5% well spent.

THAT is patriotism. Our soldiers are patriots because they sacrifice self for the greater good. We could do that more here at home, too.

5 or 10% of your income? Where do you live? In Minnesota, $.49 cents of every dollar you make goes to taxes. I'd LOVE to only pay 5 or 10%!!

[Bob Dog]

You didn't even read the post before you responded ,you only skimmed it, as you seem to be prone to do: he was speaking of an additonal 5%to 10%, not a total amount. Please try to digest all the information before you make your anquished statements.

[JBougie]

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...tal-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Bob Dog

You didn't even read the post before you responded ,you only skimmed it, as you seem to be prone to do: he was speaking of an additonal 5%to 10%, not a total amount. Please try to digest all the information before you make your anquished statements.

I was hoping that is what he meant ... if someone actually thought they were only forced to give the government 5% of their income, they would need a serious reality check.

And how the hell are you going to say I seem prone to only skim posts?

[mo_feezy]

Originally Posted by JBougie

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...tal-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

you don't see any problem with 3 of these 4 sources? really? THIS is exactly why you are being so misled. the only one of those that could even be considered impartial is the cbc.gov article, and even there it's a single example, not evidence of a pattern.

Some political scientists recently did a study and found that conservatives are more likely to continue to defend their position even when evidence that is essentially 100% certain is presented to the contrary. It's not even worth trying to change your mind.

[Bob Dog]

Your response to my posts have clearly shown that you base your response on and partial reading, or skimming of information. You respond based on part of the information contained in a post, not all of it: that is called skimming and that is how the hell I know your doing it. I do it myself when I'm just reading posts ofr interest, but if your write a reponse based on partial reading of a post, expect to get called out for it.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Bob Dog

Your response to my posts have clearly shown that you base your response on and partial reading, or skimming of information. You respond based on part of the information contained in a post, not all of it: that is called skimming and that is how the hell I know your doing it. I do it myself when I'm just reading posts ofr interest, but if your write a reponse based on partial reading of a post, expect to get called out for it.

You're joking right? Because I have responded to ONE of your posts before this 'skimming' subject.

So, how do you think I should be posting? Should I respond to every word posted? Going forward I'll make sure to quote each area and then post "No comment" before going forward.

I really haven't gotten into this thread much, at all ... but since the semester is officially over tomorrow I may just have to.

There are 4 executive management members who work for my company who are from Canada - 1 from the west coast and 3 from the middle/east coast - they all have told me stories first hand of how 'great' their medical was, they said flat out it wasn't. Personal stories from real women with real families mean a whole lot more to me than anything I'll hear out of some shit-feeding politician. No matter how many links are posted with support leaning toward either side, NOTHING means more to me than hearing stories of what those families have had to go through.

But, I do ask again - has anyone read the proposed bill(s)? NO ONE should be debating or going over facts about why they think this will be great until they know what the hell it says! That is like going in for a job interview not know what you're applying for telling the guy behind the desk you know what you'll be doing. It just doesn't make sense.

I printed H.R. 3200 on 7/28 and it printed 538 pages of the bill; however now when I look at it there is only 39 pages in the full text version, so that confuses me but there are quite a few different bills out there - so who knows what the hell is going on there. If you're going to debate this health care topic, you should read the bill(s) and then point out what is good and bad about it. No offense to those neighbors from the north here but you're Canadian and things are different here even though we're so close to each other, so no matter how great you say your program is (even though I've heard very vibrant stories to the contrary) it isn't going to operate the same here - we are very different people.

[Malaya1221]

Originally Posted by JBougie

Today, I realized how screwed we are.

They are having problems acquiring the promised funding of $225million from the Feds to deploy National Guard troops to the border for BORDER SECURITY (http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20090812/...l_guard_border) ... however, in NY the Feds gave $140million dollars to 'poor' kids so they could get school supplies. http://www.nydailynews.com/money/200...e_its_fre.html

Getting kids crayons is more important than the f'n security of our country?! Are you kidding me?!

yes, education is more important!

i agree that people/big corporations are insane, for spending millions of dollars in ads spreading lies about the health care reform!

they might as well put all those monies to the "border security" funds!

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_obama_health_care

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by JBougie

http://www.hoover.org/publications/digest/49525427.html

http://www.cbc.ca/canada/manitoba/st...tal-death.html

http://www.biggovhealth.org/stories <-- UK is on the top of the page, Canada is toward the bottom

http://www.heritage.org/research/healthcare/hl702.cfm

Thanks. Too bad liberals don't want facts. They only see that the American system must suck because the cost has gotten so high. They don't see anything over the fence. American health care is the best in the world which is indisputable and the left wants to throw it away.

[Bob Dog]

Yes read every word of a post, or don't have the arrogant audacity to presume you are making a response to a post as opposed to an ignorant supposition....

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Bob Dog

Read every word or don't have the arrogant audacity to presume you are making a response as opposed to an ignorant supposition....

Every word is read.

That doesn't mean I have to respond to it.

Oh, by the way - I'm hardly a neocon.

[ChinoCharles]

Guys, we can argue all we want but please keep it civil. I hold no grudges against those with opposing viewpoints despite how frustrated I get. Try to keep name calling to a minimum. One day this will all blow over. You know, after we have single-payer coverage.

[Altitude]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

Thanks. Too bad liberals don't want facts. They only see that the American system must suck because the cost has gotten so high. They don't see anything over the fence. American health care is the best in the world which is indisputable and the left wants to throw it away.

Facts? Did you look at those sites? It's all subjective opinion and second hand stories. The only factual part is that these things happened but it's hardly sufficient to make any sort of judgement.

--------

JBougie - I'm a little lost as to how you can be so opposed to a government run heathcare system when your father is living proof of its efficacy. Would I be incorrect to assume he is also on Medicare? What story would you be telling us today if not for the support of public monies and government services to provide for his well being? Given your own personal experiences I would have expected a bit more empathy and compassion towards the matter.

Do you hold a firm stance against any form of national healthcare or is it just that you just dislike the approach that is being taken?