The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[Altitude]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

Thanks. Too bad liberals don't want facts. They only see that the American system must suck because the cost has gotten so high. They don't see anything over the fence. American health care is the best in the world which is indisputable and the left wants to throw it away.

Facts? Did you look at those sites? It's all subjective opinion and second hand stories. The only factual part is that these things happened but it's hardly sufficient to make any sort of judgement.

--------

JBougie - I'm a little lost as to how you can be so opposed to a government run heathcare system when your father is living proof of its efficacy. Would I be incorrect to assume he is also on Medicare? What story would you be telling us today if not for the support of public monies and government services to provide for his well being? Given your own personal experiences I would have expected a bit more empathy and compassion towards the matter.

Do you hold a firm stance against any form of national healthcare or is it just that you just dislike the approach that is being taken?

[Bob Dog]

Your response to my posts have clearly shown that you base your response on and partial reading, or skimming of information. You respond based on part of the information contained in a post, not all of it: that is called skimming and that is how the hell I know your doing it. I do it myself when I'm just reading posts ofr interest, but if your write a reponse based on partial reading of a post, expect to get called out for it.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Bob Dog

Your response to my posts have clearly shown that you base your response on and partial reading, or skimming of information. You respond based on part of the information contained in a post, not all of it: that is called skimming and that is how the hell I know your doing it. I do it myself when I'm just reading posts ofr interest, but if your write a reponse based on partial reading of a post, expect to get called out for it.

You're joking right? Because I have responded to ONE of your posts before this 'skimming' subject.

So, how do you think I should be posting? Should I respond to every word posted? Going forward I'll make sure to quote each area and then post "No comment" before going forward.

I really haven't gotten into this thread much, at all ... but since the semester is officially over tomorrow I may just have to.

There are 4 executive management members who work for my company who are from Canada - 1 from the west coast and 3 from the middle/east coast - they all have told me stories first hand of how 'great' their medical was, they said flat out it wasn't. Personal stories from real women with real families mean a whole lot more to me than anything I'll hear out of some shit-feeding politician. No matter how many links are posted with support leaning toward either side, NOTHING means more to me than hearing stories of what those families have had to go through.

But, I do ask again - has anyone read the proposed bill(s)? NO ONE should be debating or going over facts about why they think this will be great until they know what the hell it says! That is like going in for a job interview not know what you're applying for telling the guy behind the desk you know what you'll be doing. It just doesn't make sense.

I printed H.R. 3200 on 7/28 and it printed 538 pages of the bill; however now when I look at it there is only 39 pages in the full text version, so that confuses me but there are quite a few different bills out there - so who knows what the hell is going on there. If you're going to debate this health care topic, you should read the bill(s) and then point out what is good and bad about it. No offense to those neighbors from the north here but you're Canadian and things are different here even though we're so close to each other, so no matter how great you say your program is (even though I've heard very vibrant stories to the contrary) it isn't going to operate the same here - we are very different people.

[Bob Dog]

Yes read every word of a post, or don't have the arrogant audacity to presume you are making a response to a post as opposed to an ignorant supposition....

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Bob Dog

Read every word or don't have the arrogant audacity to presume you are making a response as opposed to an ignorant supposition....

Every word is read.

That doesn't mean I have to respond to it.

Oh, by the way - I'm hardly a neocon.

[ChinoCharles]

Guys, we can argue all we want but please keep it civil. I hold no grudges against those with opposing viewpoints despite how frustrated I get. Try to keep name calling to a minimum. One day this will all blow over. You know, after we have single-payer coverage.

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

Guys, we can argue all we want but please keep it civil. I hold no grudges against those with opposing viewpoints despite how frustrated I get. Try to keep name calling to a minimum. One day this will all blow over. You know, after we have single-payer coverage.

I agree - name calling is below the belt. If I have, I won't continue.

And this will never blow over lol there is a reason that different parties were made in the first place, since the dawn of time people have always thought differently from one another

[2+2]

Too funny. Copied the following from Woot.com Good one Woot!

Town Holler
Uh, no, sir, I don’t even know what an Illuminati is. Now, let me dispel some of the myths and rumors going around about what exactly this Acer desktop computer will do.

First things first: it will not kill your grandmother. Unless maybe it falls on her from a moderate height. Or if someone throws it into her bath while it’s plugged in. Let me be clear: I do not support that. Acer does not support that. Nobody supports that. I think we can all agree that grandmas are nice.

Sir – sir, please, if you’ll – no, that’s not the sound of a black helicopter. It’s just the gymnasium’s air conditioning kicking on.

Others, located somewhat closer to reality, say that our children and grandchildren will be paying for these computers forever. They say that Woot can’t possibly deliver a compact but powerful desktop PC with dual-core 2.4Ghz processor, 4GB of memory, and 640GB hard drive for just $299. I say there’s some truth to that. It will actually cost another five dollars to get it to your door. If you need your kids to pay for that, maybe they could get a paper route or something. Just for a week, that’d probably do it.

Please, people, put down that burning trash can. That’s not helpful to this dialogue.

Finally, there’s this crazy rumor going around about how this Acer desktop PC was actually born in Kenya as the secret love child of Malcolm X and the Dixie Chicks, and was sent to America by the communists to smash democracy, impose Sharia law, hand over General Motors to the Arabs, destroy the American right to choose between two different high def 23 inch monitors and wipe boogers in Glenn Beck’s Cheerios. All I can say to that is, you’re going to need some serious psychological counseling and probably medication. Hope your health insurance will cover it.

[mo_feezy]

Originally Posted by 2+2

Too funny. Copied the following from Woot.com Good one Woot!

Town Holler
Uh, no, sir, I don’t even know what an Illuminati is. Now, let me dispel some of the myths and rumors going around about what exactly this Acer desktop computer will do.

First things first: it will not kill your grandmother. Unless maybe it falls on her from a moderate height. Or if someone throws it into her bath while it’s plugged in. Let me be clear: I do not support that. Acer does not support that. Nobody supports that. I think we can all agree that grandmas are nice.

Sir – sir, please, if you’ll – no, that’s not the sound of a black helicopter. It’s just the gymnasium’s air conditioning kicking on.

Others, located somewhat closer to reality, say that our children and grandchildren will be paying for these computers forever. They say that Woot can’t possibly deliver a compact but powerful desktop PC with dual-core 2.4Ghz processor, 4GB of memory, and 640GB hard drive for just $299. I say there’s some truth to that. It will actually cost another five dollars to get it to your door. If you need your kids to pay for that, maybe they could get a paper route or something. Just for a week, that’d probably do it.

Please, people, put down that burning trash can. That’s not helpful to this dialogue.

Finally, there’s this crazy rumor going around about how this Acer desktop PC was actually born in Kenya as the secret love child of Malcolm X and the Dixie Chicks, and was sent to America by the communists to smash democracy, impose Sharia law, hand over General Motors to the Arabs, destroy the American right to choose between two different high def 23 inch monitors and wipe boogers in Glenn Beck’s Cheerios. All I can say to that is, you’re going to need some serious psychological counseling and probably medication. Hope your health insurance will cover it.

i love woot.

[TLyttle]

We try to give you facts, Kal-El, but clearly they are coming form the wrong source for you to absorb. I had a stroke: total time before treatment, from the time I walked into the hospital, less than 10 minutes. Long wait? Same thing with anyone else I have spoken to: life-threatening or dibilitating injuries are treated right away, every time, using whatever means possible. Our problems here have to do with very long distances between places and poor weather conditions.

Do we have people waiting for electives? Sure we do, but getting treatment does NOT have anything to do with one's credit status! Why is that such a problem? If you are alright, that seems to be fine; anyone else without the financing, well, they can just die on the street... Lovely attitude.

I spent many years helping with the handicapped, making very little money; because I didn't go for the gold, I suppose I have no right to medical attention when I need it.... silly me....

[TLyttle]

French-Canadian or not, there are major flaws in his information; maybe he has spent too much time in the US.

Wait times for The Brits were bad in the 80s, the UK Government admits that, but according to the news yesterday, that is no longer the case. Talking to a few Brits would clear that up (don't depend on Rush to give the facts, he's having too much fun inventing stuff), and my recent conversations have not indicated untoward delays.

Lastly, name-calling, or personal insults, only show up when logic fails. If someone attacks me instead of the point, I automatically know I am winning the argument.

[PaidTimeOff]

I think we can all agree that factcheck.org is a pretty reputable resource, correct? Well they just released an article today about seven pretty big falsehoods people ON BOTH SIDES have about healthcare...

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/sev...t-health-care/

For those of you not into reading, here's a list of the seven falsehoods:

False: Government Will Decide What Care I Get (a.k.a. they won’t give grandma a hip replacement)

False: The Bill Is Paid For

False: Private Insurance Will Be Illegal

False: The House Bill Requires Suicide Counseling

False: Families Will Save $2,500

False: Medicare Benefits Will Be Slashed

False: Illegal Immigrants Will Be Covered

Don't believe it? Click the link. The evidence is there. Srsly.

[JBougie]

Have you read the bill? Actually READ the bill? I can sit there all day until I am red in the face that the damn bill says nothing about everyone receiving a flying purple pony - however, unless you READ that for yourself TAKE NO ONES WORD FOR IT because you might just be needing to get a stable to house your new flying purple pony.

Originally Posted by PaidTimeOff

I think we can all agree that factcheck.org is a pretty reputable resource, correct? Well they just released an article today about seven pretty big falsehoods people ON BOTH SIDES have about healthcare...

http://www.factcheck.org/2009/08/sev...t-health-care/

For those of you not into reading, here's a list of the seven falsehoods:

False: Government Will Decide What Care I Get (a.k.a. they won’t give grandma a hip replacement)

False: The Bill Is Paid For

False: Private Insurance Will Be Illegal

False: The House Bill Requires Suicide Counseling

False: Families Will Save $2,500

False: Medicare Benefits Will Be Slashed

False: Illegal Immigrants Will Be Covered

Don't believe it? Click the link. The evidence is there. Srsly.

[Malaya1221]

Originally Posted by 2+2

And right under the youtube "screen" there's "This is a video response to Alleged Barack Obama Kenya Birth Certificate Document Displayed" LOL Sorry - cheap shot but I couldn't resist. If you watch that with due skepticism you'll notice that the single payer quotes were from a long time ago. He's quite open about the fact that he now considers it unfeasible due to how entrenched the insurance companies and others are.

What do Republicans have against this man? He seems like a good guy. He seems to have an ok wife and a couple of cool kids. He's smart. He seems to want to do what's best for all Americans and not just the rich and what a nice change that is. What's wrong?

people already made up their minds...no matter what obama does, he won't be able to change their mind...

It's hard to hear things clearly if you don't listen.

Originally Posted by JBougie

Have you read the bill? Actually READ the bill? I can sit there all day until I am red in the face that the damn bill says nothing about everyone receiving a flying purple pony - however, unless you READ that for yourself TAKE NO ONES WORD FOR IT because you might just be needing to get a stable to house your new flying purple pony.

you keep saying that you've read the proposal....could you kindly point to us/me one by one your objections to it so we could dissect it and maybe find a common ground...and if you could give a better option than what the health reform is proposing rather than getting furious...it's the only healthy way to solve problems...

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by Malaya1221

you keep saying that you've read the proposal....could you kindly point to us/me one by one your objections to it so we could dissect it and maybe find a common ground...and if you could give a better option than what the health reform is proposing rather than getting furious...it's the only healthy way to solve problems...

I have not said I have read it (just clarifying )- I said I am in the process of reading - well, WAS until they pulled it (oddly enough) off the Thomas.gov site and replaced the full length text version of HR3200 with the 39 page cliff-notes version. So, now I have to figure out which is the latest and greatest and start all over. Which I am going to do becuase - like I have also said and keep saying because I'm so happy to have a break - school is finally out for the semester so I have extra time to spend reading.

I think that if everyone would read a bit of it and come up with something they agree with/disagree with and then hash it out that way it would be a lot better. Nothing gets solved with one-sided debates about things. And really, I don't care what side of the fence you're on - you can't trust a politician and what he says to you becuase they are only looking out for themselves and the interests of who will be voting them into another term

[PaidTimeOff]

Originally Posted by JBougie

I have not said I have read it (just clarifying )

Here's your quote, just to clarify. Take a step back, take a deep breath and come back when you have something to say that isn't full of unwarranted, and frankly hypocritical, flames.

[PaidTimeOff]

Originally Posted by JBougie

Have you read the bill? Actually READ the bill? I can sit there all day until I am red in the face that the damn bill says nothing about everyone receiving a flying purple pony - however, unless you READ that for yourself TAKE NO ONES WORD FOR IT because you might just be needing to get a stable to house your new flying purple pony.

No, I haven't read the actual bill (and by admission, neither have you) but it's generally accepted that factcheck.org is a highly HIGHLY reputable source. They lean neither left nor right, nor up or down. They aren't funded by any outside sources or lobbyists (unlike many of our countries politicians). I'm honestly not going to sit around reading a 1000+ page bill that's going through congress (this is what we pay our state senators and representatives to do) and if you're telling me you really were going to read all of it, I'm sorry but I just don't believe you.

Seriously, go to the article, check out their sources. If they aren't reputable, come on here and explain why. They simply compiled the facts in a convenient and easy to access place. A TRUE no-spin zone, if you will. Don't go around ragging on people for not reading the bill when you yourself have not even gotten through it. "Do as I say not as I do" much?

[JBougie]

Originally Posted by PaidTimeOff

No, I haven't read the actual bill (and by admission, neither have you) but it's generally accepted that factcheck.org is a highly HIGHLY reputable source. They lean neither left nor right, nor up or down. They aren't funded by any outside sources or lobbyists (unlike many of our countries politicians). I'm honestly not going to sit around reading a 1000+ page bill that's going through congress (this is what we pay our state senators and representatives to do) and if you're telling me you really were going to read all of it, I'm sorry but I just don't believe you.

Seriously, go to the article, check out their sources. If they aren't reputable, come on here and explain why. They simply compiled the facts in a convenient and easy to access place. A TRUE no-spin zone, if you will. Don't go around ragging on people for not reading the bill when you yourself have not even gotten through it. "Do as I say not as I do" much?

You have no reason to argue the subject after admitting that you didn't read it, and that you will just take the word of someone else.

You should run for congress - they seem to do the same thing.