Yaris Sedan Deadening and Sound system upgrade

[derickveliz2]

Ok, I just had some fun with my dremel, sparks and every thing else! in the A-frame!!!
I made enough space to get the HL-70 (MIDs) in there, thinking that some day I'll put a L3SE.

Pictures to follow...

D.

[derickveliz2]

Here is the A-Frame Pilot's side remaining parts over the template I made, this is to build the baffle:




After cutting the metal, I have enough space for my speaker:










The A-frame with the HL-70 all the way in:






The A-frame with the HL-70 with template:





I really don't know how I'm going to manage all the wires, I assume it's "ok" to leave them next to the speaker, because what I really want is the Off-Axis response...

D.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by patm

Excellent. Now I can tune into my favorite soap opera again. Let the progress begin.

D really nice pictures on your postings. What are you using for a camera.

P

Thanks,
Well, some times I use my cell phone (not very good) some times I use a point and shoot (so so) the good shots are thanks to my old Nikon SLR- D50

D.

[TOLMACH]

What exactly do you mean by @off axis response@ ? (like speaker not at all pointing at the listener is your goal ?)

))

good to see you returned to your place!

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by TOLMACH

What exactly do you mean by @off axis response@ ? (like speaker not at all pointing at the listener is your goal ?)

))

good to see you returned to your place!

Thanks, finally we are back, every thing is ok.

Yes the speakers (MIDs) are going to be facing each other, as far forward from my ears and trying to get them as far from each other, the maximum distance between each speaker possible.

D.

[derickveliz2]

OK.... here is some thing I discovered and help me to learn about music in a car...

I hope this helps others to understand why we struggle to get a center image and what exactly does it means...

Why so much tuning and changing our systems to get the most of them... so to me was hard because I have nobody local to show me what a SQ sound system is all about: I called 3Dimentional music where you can localize the singer for example, and of course it should be in the center (of the stage) of your car above your instrument panel (for Yaris) and the farther away from the listener the better, but...

What I was trying to accomplish when playing with Time Alignment? I wasn't sure of what to look for so I did this:

With a home system with 2 speakers (see picture #1 below), play a few songs (some tracks are better than others to show you this wonderful example), get between the speakers right in the center, very close (see picture #2 below) and listen.... sudenly you will feel the singer in the middle in my scenario right above my head, like magic, (Picture #3) like if I had a 3rd speaker for center channel specifically for the singer, in some other tracks it was a drum or other instrument, give it a try and see if you can listen to the 3Dimentional aspect of the music...

Then try to do it in your car... things get more complicated been on the left side (pilot's side), in a very small area, with glass around you, it's like the worst scenario and without Time Alignment it probably won't happen.

Picture # 1


Picture #2


Picture #3


D.

[TOLMACH]

Thanks, Derick, very interesting to see your progress / experiments.. I kind of remember myself back in 2006 - when I first installed midranges in my car - I made three different types of podiums within couple months (then I had to sell that car)

[sqcomp]

I've produced some glass shells that fit onto the side there in the kicks. I want to change the angle upwards on mine.

When you plugin the crossovers between the mid range and the tweeter, look for somewhere around 3.5 kHz to 5.5 kHz.

I know that my stage is about an inch or two above the dash with the mids down in the kicks. It's lower than with the mids in the pillars...BUT...you have a bit wider of a stage and still get to keep the center image.

If you want to scope out some L3SEs, prowl around the hybrid audio forums and ask. I would imagine a couple of the guys have a pair that they might sell off. It can't hurt to ask. Also, don't hesitate to drop my name with the team guys. They might charge you double though. :)

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

I've produced some glass shells that fit onto the side there in the kicks. I want to change the angle upwards on mine.

When you plugin the crossovers between the mid range and the tweeter, look for somewhere around 3.5 kHz to 5.5 kHz.

I know that my stage is about an inch or two above the dash with the mids down in the kicks. It's lower than with the mids in the pillars...BUT...you have a bit wider of a stage and still get to keep the center image.

Why aim up? just curious.

Yes 3.5 kHz that's where I'm right now as a 2 way and works great, the stage is like you have it, and overall sounds much better than with the3 way and the MIDs in the a-pillars.

I did cut the right side, but my dremel needs some spare parts to finish. Jeje can't wait to get the 3 way working again with the MIDs in the a-frame.

D.

[sqcomp]

I'll be working the finishing glass and set in place with the kick panel on Monday. I'll throw some pics then. Until then I'm off to the M-4 range with the rest of the section. Gotta play with some NVGs too...

Why aim up? They're angled up about 30 degrees and out towards the source unit. Just getting a little more on axis.

[derickveliz2]

Couple of thoughts about my I6SW and IDQ12...

For 2 days I went back to the IDQ12 in the trunk, to compare with the new I6SW...
Yes it's a little louder, specially to the outside world, the gain from been in the trunk is noticeable, but my seat vibrates, and after a while kind of bothers my hears, this is where too much bass is not all ways a good thing, at least to me, where my goal is pure sound and the WOW! factor with out been LOUD.

Long story-short... I'm very pleased with the I6SW up front, the SQ level I get it's wonderful, having the bass hit my chest it's awesome.

D.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

Why aim up? They're angled up about 30 degrees and out towards the source unit. Just getting a little more on axis.

I didn't like when I had my mids in an angle, Maybe been so close to my ears (a-pillar install) didn't work for me I know I had them more than 30 degrees but less than 45 degrees, isn't that against the document that Schott B. points at for "Advance System Installation? Brrrrrt after reading Lesson One, I guess 30 degrees it's ok, what do you gain or benefit with 30 degrees?, my judgment and very little experience tell me go "off-axis" completely.

"Lesson One: Off-Axis Response
When a speaker system like the Legatia is placed in an automotive environment, we hear the direct
(shortest path) and reflected (longer path) sounds, such as resonances and reverberations. The two
sounds are processed by the brain as one sound, and this influences our perception of height, width,
and depth of soundstage, as well as rearward ambience. For this reason, the off-axis radiation pattern
of any speaker in a vehicular environment has a significant influence on how natural the music
sounds.
The lesson to learn here is that most mobile audio sound systems benefit greatly from having the
front stage speakers at least partially “off-axis.” Off-axis means that the speakers are not pointing at
you, but rather at some angle less than 90 degrees away from you."

D

[TOLMACH]

Originally Posted by derickveliz2

I didn't like when I had my mids in an angle, Maybe been so close to my ears (a-pillar install) didn't work for me I know I had them more than 30 degrees but less than 45 degrees, isn't that against the document that Schott B. points at for "Advance System Installation? Brrrrrt after reading Lesson One, I guess 30 degrees it's ok, what do you gain or benefit with 30 degrees?, my judgment and very little experience tell me go "off-axis" completely.

"Lesson One: Off-Axis Response
When a speaker system like the Legatia is placed in an automotive environment, we hear the direct
(shortest path) and reflected (longer path) sounds, such as resonances and reverberations. The two
sounds are processed by the brain as one sound, and this influences our perception of height, width,
and depth of soundstage, as well as rearward ambience. For this reason, the off-axis radiation pattern
of any speaker in a vehicular environment has a significant influence on how natural the music
sounds.
The lesson to learn here is that most mobile audio sound systems benefit greatly from having the
front stage speakers at least partially “off-axis.” Off-axis means that the speakers are not pointing at
you, but rather at some angle less than 90 degrees away from you."

D

It is always a trade-off between stage (off axis sometimes helps this) and SQ.. you can make some temporary pods/baffles to try different speaker positions

[sqcomp]

You have to remember that I'm even a little more on axis that your pictures with your mids. I have mine aimed out into the cabin (about 15 to 20 degrees). Instead of sacrificing center channel image by going totally on axis to the driver's ears, or having spot on center channel image is what you get when firing straight across like you have it (and how I had it up top in the A-pillars) but not being able to stretch the boundaries of the stage width and inaging the stage about an inch lower...

I decided to fall somewhere in the center. by bringing the speakers a little more on axis and angling them up just a little I felt that it was a happy medium for all the factors combined.

I felt my stage (coming from the pillar level) only lost about an inch or two of height...it's on the dash still. It has the center image referenced off the three voice narrative track from the IASCA disc, as well as the ability to dial down instead of increase the midrange (on axis benefits) with amplitude and or frequency if needed.

The tweeters are still going to be up in the pillars but sunk into within 1/2" of the glass in back of the pillars facing up toward the mirror. THAT with crossover settings takes the stage up higher.

Here's the test. Turn off the tweeters and run your mids up from oh 175 Hz passed out to 20 kHz. Time align them if you'd like, I recommend it even with improved PLDs. Tell me where the level of the stage is and why you think it's there.

We're still playing with speakers like you do in home...except in a much more confined space. The aiming is similar but you can really play with reflections in our environment a lot more. I'm also setting up for a two seat judging platform in the future (once I get the sub up front in the glove box).

[derickveliz2]

I had in my car a person who goes to live concerts every 2 weeks, these are traditional Marimba concerts, so she gave me a CD to try it out...

With the IDQ12 in the trunk, she said "Sounds really good, crisp, sharp and clear" then...

I unplugged the 12" woofer and connected the 6.5 woofer up front... and played the CD again, asking her... if she could tell the difference:
"WOW!" she yield, "now sounds like the real thing!...all coming from the front, like if I was at the concert right in front of the band" she said.

Made my day... so I went back to the drawing board and build baffles for the MIDs to test them in the a-frame (kick area)... Impressions later on! good news for my 3-way system...

D.

[sqcomp]

^I like that!

I may try the I10SW in the glovebox area if I don't like the 15" up there.

BTW, did your friend give you the CD? Did you get a chance to burn it?

[patm]

Marimba CD, sounds good.

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

^I like that!

I may try the I10SW in the glovebox area if I don't like the 15" up there.

BTW, did your friend give you the CD? Did you get a chance to burn it?

Me too!

I heard the I10SW needs more than 0.6+cu.ft. of internal volume is that right?

I'm thinking in the future 2 I6SW's the downside will be the bigger box or an 8 inch. who knows? one sounds so good, but it's just like money... you just want more and more!

Yes I do have the CD.

D.