The open political discussion thread. Read the first post!

[Bob_VT]

My take on the world's situation ........... Our biggest enemy ....... the most evil....... the one I fear most ................. the one responsible for brainwashing and causing panic ............. the MEDIA.

The media crucified Richard Jewell, the media destroyed Bush, elected Obama...... the media can not go 5 minutes without using the words .... the state of the economy.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Bob_VT

, the media destroyed Bush, elected Obama...... the media can not go 5 minutes without using the words .... the state of the economy.

Bush destroyed his own credibility and the voters showed their displeasure and voted the bum out, too bad the republicans cant except the fact that the people have spoken and Obama and the Dems are the way its going to be for at least the next 4yrs,and as for the media electing Obama you obviously havent been listening to media moguls Limbaugh,Beck, Hannity, Coulter, and many others who use the media to carve up Obama everyday. I used to be a fence sitter as to whether i was Liberal or conservative in my political views but in the aftermath of this recent election i've jumped squarely to the liberal side as the conservatives seem to be a bunch of spoiled brats ,poor losers and nut jobs who seem to continually whine about the idea that their guns might be at risk of registration or the government might institute more social programs instead of pulling together to overcome the temporary fiscal challenges that now face the nation .

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Bob_VT

My take on the world's situation ........... Our biggest enemy ....... the most evil....... the one I fear most ................. the one responsible for brainwashing and causing panic ............. the MEDIA.

The media crucified Richard Jewell, the media destroyed Bush, elected Obama...... the media can not go 5 minutes without using the words .... the state of the economy.

The Media gave Obama a great deal of help, true. They covered up his gaffes while emphasizing the gaffes of Sarah Palin. How many Obama supporters heard that clip of Obama talking of the 57 states that he's visited? I bet if Palin had said that we'd have heard it on the hour.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OrsBKGpwi58

How about the day that Obama hemmed and hawed about "breathilyzers" and other non-sense because he didn't have a teleprompter? Didn't see that on TV, did you?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cxxxGUeZtno

Fortunately the Media is destroying itself. Newspapers are on the edge of going out of business. It's too easy to get news from the Internet. You don't get the grotesque bias from the Internet if you shop around.

TV news shows are following in suit.

Our biggest problem is not the Media. It's a public which refuses to think things through to their logical conclusions. We get the government that we deserve because we refuse to keep good books ourselves.

A populace that kept track of things would realize that you cannot spend money you don't have endlessly. They'd realize how often the Government has failed to deliver on its promises.

They may not become Conservatives either, they might demand more prudent spending and more realistic taxation than Marxist "From each according to their ability" income taxes. They might want to question why beer is legal but dope is illegal and that the US has two million people in jail.

H.L. Mencken said a long time ago that the idea of politics is to give people what they want, good and hard.

We're getting it now. Between Cap 'n Trade, grotesque deficit spending and hyper regulation this is going to be a hard country to make a good living.

Yes, we'll see if people finally wake up in this country. Got a feeling it's starting to happen, but the nub is what conclusions that they'll draw.

Gene

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Yes, we'll see if people finally wake up in this country. Got a feeling it's starting to happen, but the nub is what conclusions that they'll draw.

Gene

I'd say the country did wake up,they threw the 8yr legacy of George Bush and the republicans under the bus.Listening to some republicans you'd think Americas problems all started when Obama was elected,sorry but 8yrs of Bush running the country like the old wild west led to 2 wars and a close call not going into 3 others (Iran,Syria,Afganistan),he let the money people run rampant with the financial institutions of America to the point the country came close to bankruptcy while the fat cats just stuffed their pockets with your money,and somehow this is all Obama's fault?It amazes me that Bush walks away with no accountability for his actions and the best the republicans can do is blame Obama for everything So glad about the 2 term limit,i can only imagine what another term of Bush would have done to the country.

[SailDesign]

Originally Posted by jambo101

I'd say the country did wake up,they threw the 8yr legacy of George Bush and the republicans under the bus.Listening to some republicans you'd think Americas problems all started when Obama was elected,sorry but 8yrs of Bush running the country like the old wild west led to 2 wars and a close call not going into 3 others (Iran,Syria,Afganistan),he let the money people run rampant with the financial institutions of America to the point the country came close to bankruptcy while the fat cats just stuffed their pockets with your money,and somehow this is all Obama's fault?It amazes me that Bush walks away with no accountability for his actions and the best the republicans can do is blame Obama for everything So glad about the 2 term limit,i can only imagine what another term of Bush would have done to the country.

Thank you. +1, with a few zeros after it.

[MadMax]

Originally Posted by jambo101

I'd say the country did wake up,they threw the 8yr legacy of George Bush and the republicans under the bus.Listening to some republicans you'd think Americas problems all started when Obama was elected,sorry but 8yrs of Bush running the country like the old wild west led to 2 wars and a close call not going into 3 others (Iran,Syria,Afganistan),he let the money people run rampant with the financial institutions of America to the point the country came close to bankruptcy while the fat cats just stuffed their pockets with your money,and somehow this is all Obama's fault?It amazes me that Bush walks away with no accountability for his actions and the best the republicans can do is blame Obama for everything So glad about the 2 term limit,i can only imagine what another term of Bush would have done to the country.

Errrr, I know you aren't an American, so maybe you don't realize this but our president doesn't have absolute powers therefore much of the blame also lies with the Congress and Senate. And guess which political party help the majority in those two bodies during the last half of the Bush administration?

Also, if you did your research you will find our current housing problems were started by the previous administration (Clinton). I don't necessarily believe it was intentionally meant to collapse the market, in fact it was started with all the best intentions but unfortunately was left running unchecked therefore nosedived driving the country into its current economic woes.

Additionally, don't be so quick to praise Obama, he shouldn't be given a free ride simply because he followed Bush. Some of his proposals are not well thought out, and they need the checks-and-balances of a little criticism. Here is a good example from the Wall Street Journal...

The 2% Illusion
Take everything they earn, and it still won't be enough.

President Obama has laid out the most ambitious and expensive domestic agenda since LBJ, and now all he has to do is figure out how to pay for it. On Tuesday, he left the impression that we need merely end "tax breaks for the wealthiest 2% of Americans," and he promised that households earning less than $250,000 won't see their taxes increased by "one single dime."

APThis is going to be some trick. Even the most basic inspection of the IRS income tax statistics shows that raising taxes on the salaries, dividends and capital gains of those making more than $250,000 can't possibly raise enough revenue to fund Mr. Obama's new spending ambitions.

Consider the IRS data for 2006, the most recent year that such tax data are available and a good year for the economy and "the wealthiest 2%." Roughly 3.8 million filers had adjusted gross incomes above $200,000 in 2006. (That's about 7% of all returns; the data aren't broken down at the $250,000 point.) These people paid about $522 billion in income taxes, or roughly 62% of all federal individual income receipts. The richest 1% -- about 1.65 million filers making above $388,806 -- paid some $408 billion, or 39.9% of all income tax revenues, while earning about 22% of all reported U.S. income.

Note that federal income taxes are already "progressive" with a 35% top marginal rate, and that Mr. Obama is (so far) proposing to raise it only to 39.6%, plus another two percentage points in hidden deduction phase-outs. He'd also raise capital gains and dividend rates, but those both yield far less revenue than the income tax. These combined increases won't come close to raising the hundreds of billions of dollars in revenue that Mr. Obama is going to need.

But let's not stop at a 42% top rate; as a thought experiment, let's go all the way. A tax policy that confiscated 100% of the taxable income of everyone in America earning over $500,000 in 2006 would only have given Congress an extra $1.3 trillion in revenue. That's less than half the 2006 federal budget of $2.7 trillion and looks tiny compared to the more than $4 trillion Congress will spend in fiscal 2010. Even taking every taxable "dime" of everyone earning more than $75,000 in 2006 would have barely yielded enough to cover that $4 trillion.

Fast forward to this year (and 2010) when the Wall Street meltdown and recession are going to mean far few taxpayers earning more than $500,000. Profits are plunging, businesses are cutting or eliminating dividends, hedge funds are rolling up, and, most of all, capital nationwide is on strike. Raising taxes now will thus yield far less revenue than it would have in 2006.

Mr. Obama is of course counting on an economic recovery. And he's also assuming along with the new liberal economic consensus that taxes don't matter to growth or job creation. The truth, though, is that they do. Small- and medium-sized businesses are the nation's primary employers, and lower individual tax rates have induced thousands of them to shift from filing under the corporate tax system to the individual system, often as limited liability companies or Subchapter S corporations. The Tax Foundation calculates that merely restoring the higher, Clinton-era tax rates on the top two brackets would hit 45% to 55% of small-business income, depending on how inclusively "small business" is defined. These owners will find a way to declare less taxable income.

The bottom line is that Mr. Obama is selling the country on a 2% illusion. Unwinding the U.S. commitment in Iraq and allowing the Bush tax cuts to expire can't possibly pay for his agenda. Taxes on the not-so-rich will need to rise as well.

On that point, by the way, it's unclear why Mr. Obama thinks his climate-change scheme won't hit all Americans with higher taxes. Selling the right to emit greenhouse gases amounts to a steep new tax on most types of energy and, therefore, on all Americans who use energy. There's a reason that Charlie Rangel's Ways and Means panel, which writes tax law, is holding hearings this week on cap-and-trade regulation.

Mr. Obama is very good at portraying his agenda as nothing more than center-left pragmatism. But pragmatists don't ignore the data. And the reality is that the only way to pay for Mr. Obama's ambitions is to reach ever deeper into the pockets of the American middle class.

He's a politician just like every other, and blind faith only leads to disaster...

Cheers! M2

[NJBob]

I don't agree that the media elected Obama. I think he was the better qualified of the two. He's young, smart, ambitious, educated. Democrats seemed the likely choice after seeing what the previous 8 year admin. did (and didn't do)and did not vote for him simply because he's a Democrat. But that's just me. The two things that bother me the most about that election is that some people voted for Obama solely because of his color.....and worse....did not.

[eTiMaGo]

yep, since WWII, the US has truly become the dominant country of the world. I am grateful for their involvement, or I'd be speaking German now

But, I guess this success sorta went to the collective heads of the ruling elite, and over time the country became a kind of bully You guys ought to read a book called Rogue State by William Blum. it's pretty thick and slow reading, but it chronicles a lot of the underhanded influence the US has had in other countries.

So yes, it is this influence, as well as the relative prosperity of the american people, that can really infuriate those of other countries, sadly with disastrous results as we saw on 9/11

[TLyttle]

Years ago, someone (obviously not an American) said that the USA is heading for Third-World status within 2 decades; rash, but when one considers what the US spends its tax money on ("defense", for a start) and the state of the poor or sick, this is not a difficult conclusion to come to.

My buddy's favourite quote is, "America is the only nation that went from infancy to senility without going through maturity." I only hope that Obama is able to supply a period of that missing component...

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Years ago, someone (obviously not an American) said that the USA is heading for Third-World status within 2 decades; rash, but when one considers what the US spends its tax money on ("defense", for a start) and the state of the poor or sick, this is not a difficult conclusion to come to.

My buddy's favourite quote is, "America is the only nation that went from infancy to senility without going through maturity." I only hope that Obama is able to supply a period of that missing component...

Don't hold your breath, my man... because the people in Congress ain't mature, not at all.

Gene

[jinxor]

I guess it is just the recession that is digging into ppl's mind... Usually, these same discussions happen every time a new person is elected. There were and will be complaints, rants, etc... The point is that all these politicians are elected by us... Isnt that the US where ppl say the government is ... "For the ppl, of the ppl, by the ppl"???

[1NZYaris1]

Originally Posted by jinxor

I guess it is just the recession that is digging into ppl's mind... Usually, these same discussions happen every time a new person is elected. There were and will be complaints, rants, etc... The point is that all these politicians are elected by us... Isnt that the US where ppl say the government is ... "For the ppl, of the ppl, by the ppl"???

[Phaeton]

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

A good start would be for people and businesses and government to live within their means.

[eTiMaGo]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

naaah it's so much easier and fun to bitch and complain

[supmet]

Originally Posted by Phaeton

Everybody has an opinion on how the U.S. got to this point.
I'd like to here peoples ideas how to get us out of this mess.
Any ideas welcome.

I know every likes to blame greed. Greed from the consumers, greed from the banks, greed all around. I tend to agree with all of it, except greed from the banks.

Now yes, in the end, it was greed that caused the banks to give out ridiculous loans - but not greed thinking they were gonna make money off of the loans. They knew the bailout money was coming for years. I REFUSE to believe, people with degrees in economics and banking, actually thought there was ANY chance someone making 30k a year would ever pay back a 500k loan.

Ya the government "encouraged" looser loans, but nobody was holding guns to bankers' heads telling them they HAD to give out crappy loans. They knew what they were doing, and they knew it would inevitably collapse their company. But hey, who cares right? You can get billions in bailouts, and give millions to all your execs. Everyone important got taken care of, and now - America is in a state of emergency, its favorite place to be.

When everything is perfect in America, the people will not vote to change anything. When everything is going to shit, the people will give up their right to vote, and allow the government to pass ANYTHING(see patriot act).. This has pretty much been the standard operating procedure for the united states for quite some time. To get things done, there needs to be an emergency that is either completely made up, blown way out of proportion, or we knowingly let people attack us - (gulf of tonkin, pearl harbor, 9/11)

The banking collapse is just the latest emergency orchestrated to make you vote for some stupid shit, and act without thinking.

How to get out of it? Let the chaff burn and move on with your life. I still have all the essentials for life, and nobody is trying to kill me. The economy will bounce back on its own, thinking you can artificially control the economy is perhaps the dumbest thing I've heard in a while.

If you want immediate fixes -

1)legalize drugs - billions and billions made on taxes, trillions saved in the DEA, all gangs in america will become ABSOLUTELY POWERLESS over night. Marijuana farmers and drug manufacturers will bring new jobs too :D

2)drop homeland security - again, trillions saved. Homeland security has been responsible for the detainment of exactly ONE so called "terrorist" group, that was just a bunch of rednecks that wanted to blow some shit up. Not to mention they impede on my rights on a daily basis.

3)raise taxes on cigarettes and alcohol - two of the least affected industries by the failing economy. alcohol sales have actually been UP in some months.

4)raise taxes on any making over 500k a year - Ya

5) fire everyone at the IRS and start over new. The fact that people making 40 grand a year get audited is fucking insane. Go spend some time getting the trillions of dollars owed by big businesses and leave people trying to survive alone.

6)take back all the bailout money, all the money you're saving on not having homeland security and the DEA, and give it back to the people, who need it.

[jambo101]

Originally Posted by supmet

6)take back all the bailout money,

The reps seem really at odds with this bailout issue,I'm not a big fan of taxpayer funded bailouts but in this case it was a necessary evil,to let the core of your financial system collapse would have lost America its financial credibility around the world and in this time of global markets and economies the reprecussions of such an event would have made the great depression seem like a picnic,Generations of living beyond ones means has finally caught up to America and its time to pay the piper.But i do have confidence in Americas resiliency that it will emerge from this mess and remain one of the best countries in the world to live to fulfill ones dreams.

[supmet]

Originally Posted by jambo101

The reps seem really at odds with this bailout issue,I'm not a big fan of taxpayer funded bailouts but in this case it was a necessary evil,to let the core of your financial system collapse would have lost America its financial credibility around the world and in this time of global markets and economies the reprecussions of such an event would have made the great depression seem like a picnic,Generations of living beyond ones means has finally caught up to America and its time to pay the piper.But i do have confidence in Americas resiliency that it will emerge from this mess and remain one of the best countries in the world to live to fulfill ones dreams.

See what I mean?

"normally I'm against it, but in THIS case............"

This is EXACTLY what I was talking about america creating legislation out of "emergency" This fact is only compounded 100 times by the fact there is NO true journalism on TV(where 90% of americans get their news), and every reporter is getting paid to feed you lies.

Make an emergency. Use the news to blow it out of proportion. Pass any law you want. rinse. repeat.


The shit was gonna hit the fan regardless of the banking/housing fiasco. Labor prices in china going up = all the business that were just barely getting by repackaging chinese goods are fucked. Unskilled labor(and even some skilled labor) being replaced by robots and machines = huge unemployment rates. Giving good money to bad people isn't gonna make any situation better.

Stop making rash knee-jerk reactions. Let the people who are bad with money run their course to bankruptcy. Let the smart people who didn't lose money take over. The government and the people need to stop needless spending. Some hard work and buckling down is the only thing that will get us out... Throwing money away is only going to make it worse.