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Old 03-25-2010, 10:00 AM   #1
Duckywitbigfeetz
 
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Help choosing sub

hey guys just looking for an opinion. I have a RF p1001-1bd amp and am looking to just a JL w7 to match it up with. trying to decide 10" or 12".
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Old 03-25-2010, 11:47 AM   #2
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How much bass do you want? The 10 would be plenty for me. We just put one in a Civic SI last week and it hammered. The difference in airspace between the 10 and 12 is minimal so either should work.
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Old 03-25-2010, 12:35 PM   #3
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckywitbigfeetz View Post
hey guys just looking for an opinion. I have a RF p1001-1bd amp and am looking to just a JL w7 to match it up with. trying to decide 10" or 12".
the main thing you should be concerned with when choosing a sub is how much space it requires. the 12" will take up proportionally more space than the 10", Unless they are designed significantly different (which is weird, but companies do that from time to time). It's more than just a change in cone size. Both will sound good, both will get loud.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:17 PM   #4
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tlnlnky is right.
Decide how much BOX you want taking up your cargo space.

The Yaris is small, so a 10" sub is a good fit.
It will be plenty loud enough, and the box will take up less space.

Why a JL W7? Those things are EXPENSIVE.

Try an ALPINE Type-X from:
www.sonicelectronix.com

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Old 03-25-2010, 05:37 PM   #5
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actually you should also be concerned with what type of music you are going to be listening to, as that will be a factor as well.
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Old 03-25-2010, 05:38 PM   #6
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the type x is no where near as accurate as a W7 nor does it play nearly as low. You get what you pay for. Both the ten and the twelve are fine choices
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:11 PM   #7
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hehe mtx jackhammer. Let's see if we can get your car to literally hop. :-P
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Old 03-25-2010, 06:38 PM   #8
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...if you get what you pay for, that W7 had better come with two professional escorts...

Please understand we are all speaking to our brand biases. This is not, at least so far, an objective thread.

I'm thinking that a better woofer for the W7 12" would be an IDMAX 12"...They're both "old" standards now.
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Old 03-26-2010, 12:00 PM   #9
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JL is one of the few companies that actually spends time & money on R&D... and though the W7 is spendy, it is a quality unit, that is designed for sq, and due to its proprietary parts which make up its linear motor technology, it can actually sound good at high volumes.

There are other options out there that will give similar performance for much less, but they are geared toward the DIY market.

If you have the money for a W7, it is a fine driver to use.
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Old 03-27-2010, 10:26 AM   #10
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im actually downgrading/upgrading from 2 type r 12's (depending on how you look at it) and the question was more directed on will the p1000-1bd have enough power for the 12w7 or is the 10w7 all i can do. I to have been really impressed with jl audio quality. Ive tried rf, jl, apine, mtx, and infinity. ive decided im going to dish out the money. plus im planning a fiberglass box mabey with a small tv and jl just look clean
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Old 03-28-2010, 01:01 PM   #11
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Duckywitbigfeetz View Post
im actually downgrading/upgrading from 2 type r 12's (depending on how you look at it) and the question was more directed on will the p1000-1bd have enough power for the 12w7 or is the 10w7 all i can do. I to have been really impressed with jl audio quality. Ive tried rf, jl, apine, mtx, and infinity. ive decided im going to dish out the money. plus im planning a fiberglass box mabey with a small tv and jl just look clean
there is this huge misconception of if an amplifier will have "enough power" for x, y, or z sub. GET THAT concept out of your head. 10watts of RMS is enough for a sub to be heard at a decent volume (unless you have a sub with a sensitivity below 80dB @ 1w/1m).

You should be concerned with is this amplifier TOO MUCH POWER for the sub.

Nobody has killed a 1000watt sub by only giving it 500rms, 250rms, or even 25rms. Stores like to tell customers that buying too small of an amp is dangerous... it is not. They are talking about something called clipping, which has nothing to do with the size of an amplifier... somebody who is dumb enough to set up their amp & deck to clip will run a clipped signal regardless of whether they have a 100watt amp or a 4,000 watt amp.

1000rms is a lot of power, any sub worth its weight in saltine crackers will be loud with that much power. Put the sub in a properly designed and constructed box, set your gain & bassboost correctly (read: low) and have fun.
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Old 03-28-2010, 02:13 PM   #12
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If you've got the signal chain matched correctly, you won't need to use maybe a fraction of the power available...

Here's something from an audio standard to consider:

"If we lived in a perfect world our systems would always have more power than we could ever use. Unfortunately it’s rarely that way. If we set our gains 'textbook perfect', the musical signal would never be able to produce a clipped signal. That is the good news. The bad news is that since the crest factor (peak to average power factor) of music is relatively high, the average power of most music signals is over ten to one or about ten dB. What this means is that in a perfectly gain matched system; the highest average power we can ever use from our power amps is about one tenth! This means that with a 1000 Watt power amp, the most long term average UNDISTORTED power we can listen to music is about 100 Watts or even less!

a system that is not set up properly will have excessive noise or distortion or more likely both. With many systems costing thousands of dollars it is really silly to consider that level matching is not worth at least a few dollars and a little time. If you have a thousand dollars invested in your system and you improve it only 5% with a little tweaking, that's a value of at least fifty dollars the way I see it. The fact is that in most cases the overall dynamic range of a system can be increased several dB with precision tweaking over what even the best 'ears' can do. If you want to consider value, a mere 3dB is like doubling the value of your system.

So how do we go about this important final system tweak? First off forget all those statements such as 'set it at 3/4' or 'turn such and such to here'. Such comments are the babblings of techno-idiots and should be ignored by anyone serious about quality audio. No doubt you have heard such poor advice, as well as the other extreme, where the process is described in detail that would rival brain surgery. Really it's not as complicated as its importance would suggest. All we really want to do is insure that when a signal starts out at the beginning of a system that it passes through the entire system as high as each component will allow without adding distortion. A system adjusted for absolute best S/N
and lowest distortion, all components will reach overload at the same time.

When it comes right down to it, there is little that one can do or spend on a system that can rival the sonic improvement that comes with proper gain adjustment of the system as a whole. A system adjusted for perfect gain matching is like chain that has equal strength in every link. In such a chain every link will fail at the same instant. A properly adjusted system with gain overlap at the amplifier is like a carefully engineered electrical system that offers maximum performance but has a fusible link." -R.C. 2004
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Old 03-28-2010, 07:53 PM   #13
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Quote:
Originally Posted by talnlnky View Post
there is this huge misconception of if an amplifier will have "enough power" for x, y, or z sub. GET THAT concept out of your head. 10watts of RMS is enough for a sub to be heard at a decent volume (unless you have a sub with a sensitivity below 80dB @ 1w/1m).
Nobody has killed a 1000watt sub by only giving it 500rms, 250rms, or even 25rms. Stores like to tell customers that buying too small of an amp is dangerous... it is not.

You contradict what many manufacturers are recommending to consumers.

I read plenty of information from the likes of Alpine, JL, Pioneer, etc... that claim you are just flat out WRONG.

You CAN underpower a sub.
Whether or not it will damage it... I don't know.

A sub is designed for a certain "power-range".
If you give it too much power, it can smoke it.
If you give it too little power, you won't have any performance/response out of it.
High power subs NEED power to push them, and keep them tight, especially at higher volumes.
If we could use a 50watt amp on our pair of Alpine Type-X 12" subs, EVERYONE would be doing it!
Who wants to spend $400 on a 1,500watt RMS amp if I can push my sub setup with 50watts ?!?!?

Subs like the JL W7 and Alpine Type-X REQUIRE lots of power to push them, and keep the response clean and tight, especially at higher volume levels. Nobody buys a JL W7 to play SOFTLY.
People spend big bucks on this stuff because they want people to hear them coming down the street.
PERIOD.

My Alpine Type-R 10" sub has a recommended power range of 200-500watts RMS. And 200 watts would be the bare MINIMUM. It probably sounds pretty weak with only 200watts trying to push it.
( and most likely, not as tight sounding, either )

Putting 50watts on a JL W7 probably wouldn't even make the cone move.

Subs that have high efficiency ratings can play louder with LESS power, but they still need SOME power.
Subs, ( especially GOOD subs ), have a higher power rating, and a lower efficiency rating because they are made for high power.
They NEED high power.

SQcomp is right though, all systems must have all the gains set correctly.
You cannot use an amp gain knob as a "volume" knob.
And all your components must MATCH each other.
Don't buy a 2,000watt RMS sub, and put a 400watt amp on it.
Don't buy a 500watt RMS max sub, and hook it to a 1,500 watt RMS amp.
You are just wasting money.

You CAN run a larger amp on a weaker sub, you just need to turn the gain down on the amp.
The question is, WHY would you do this?

My sub is rated at 500watts RMS max, and I have it hooked to an amp that puts out 400watts RMS.
My gain is set around the 10 o`clock position, my preamp outs are around 2.2v.
My sub sounds very nice, and my sub and amp run cool.
My amp barely gets warm, even after blasting it for an hour straight.
( my sub amp has a 2ohm load on it, at 4ohm load... it never even got warm. )

Maybe I am totally wrong, but I read articles and specs, and I see people with opinions that contradict what I read sometimes.
I know you guys have lots of experience, and I am not challenging your experience. I am just confused by what you just said about a 10 watt amp powering a 12" subwoofer.

I NEVER heard of anything like that.

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Old 03-28-2010, 08:03 PM   #14
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This means that with a 1000 Watt power amp, the most long term average UNDISTORTED power we can listen to music is about 100 Watts or even less!
Its a silly statement to make though. We dont listen to power at all, and power is no guarantee of volume.

If my calculations are correct, speakers with a sensitivity rating of 88db would be outputting around 107dB at 100W (which is still very loud), whereas speakers rated at 91dB would be putting out that same volume at only around 43W.
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Old 03-28-2010, 08:09 PM   #15
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I like how the posts just get progressively bigger through this thread. I feel I should be writing a short novel here.

FWIW. I stood at the back of a yukon with the hatch open blasting 2 13" W7s. That's "my face feels like its gonna get ripped off" bass
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Old 03-28-2010, 08:31 PM   #16
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Also, if you're listening to music that is more intricate or busy, such as orchestral or heavy metal stuff, it is often wise NOT to go too large a sub anyway, as the smaller subs tend to be cleaner and tighter in their performance. Even though a 10" (or dual 8's) may not have the LF extension of a 15" sub, its rarely needed anyway in most musical performances.
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Old 03-28-2010, 10:30 PM   #17
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Also, if you're listening to music that is more intricate or busy, such as orchestral or heavy metal stuff, it is often wise NOT to go too large a sub anyway, as the smaller subs tend to be cleaner and tighter in their performance. Even though a 10" (or dual 8's) may not have the LF extension of a 15" sub, its rarely needed anyway in most musical performances.

Very good point.
This has been my experience as well.

I said in an earlier post, if you optimize your system for RAP, it won't be optimized for ROCK. ( and vice versa )
And this is what I was trying to say about that.

I have always liked 10" woofers, because they are perfect for my kind of music.
If I listened to rap, I would probably run a pair of 12's in a ported box.
( for that loose, boomy bass )

8" woofers are nice too, but I would have to run two of them to get any kind of SPL out of them, which is why I decided on one Alpine Type-R 10" sub.
A pair of 8's would have been more money, and they would have required a larger box than one 10" sub requires.

"Car Audio" is like "Fine Art".
It's all up to a persons individual tastes.
Many directions you can go. Do whatever makes you happy.
That is what counts.
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Old 03-29-2010, 12:08 AM   #18
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Its a silly statement to make though. We dont listen to power at all, and power is no guarantee of volume.

If my calculations are correct, speakers with a sensitivity rating of 88db would be outputting around 107dB at 100W (which is still very loud), whereas speakers rated at 91dB would be putting out that same volume at only around 43W.
You are absolutely right! Power is not a guarantee of volume. Look at the statement again, we're in agreement. Sensitivity is not an indicator of loudness either. They are both contributing factors to the outcome of the signal. The enclosure will change the sensitivity of the woofer as well. See the difference in sealed versus ported.

...and yes, you don't listen to power, you listen to signal. The statement of fact is really saying that one isn't going to use all that available power if the signal chain is more efficient. Who cares how much power you use? Don't we care about the cleanliness of the signal, how much distortion is being pumped through it?

As for underpowering a woofer...What happens when someone with a 400 Watt amplifier powers a woofer that can only handle 500 Watts? Nothing...unless the person is STUPID with the juice. He's sitting at a light in his 97 Civic Hatch with a crappy prefab bandpass box and some 1000 Watt amplifier on a stock charging system trying to outduel some SUV with 592578738 subwoofers in the back (yeah I know, that was silly, but the point is there)? He's going to crank it up past what the amplifier can offer. The amplifier is setup incorrectly 95% of the time anyway...he clips the signal. He doesn't give two $hits...he's dB dragging!

Taln can tell us what happens when a signal clips. He can also tell us how much output happens. I can tell you what happens to your batteries and stock alternator. We can both tell you what happens to the woofer on a clipped signal.

I will venture to say that it isn't the clipping that kills the woofer. When that square wave signal stops the woofer at the top and bottom of it's throw...what happens? The woofer stops moving at the top and bottom of the wave. It's still being powered though. Those voice coils rely on cool air to keep from frying. Hmmm...what happens to an air cooled machine when it's worked hard and not cooled?

Heat is what kills our woofers. Clipping is the cause...heat is the effect.

I digress, properly level setting your signal chain will assure that nothing in that chain will produce a potentially damaging square waveform. You become more efficient. You can rail on all day (if your charging system is adequate) and not worry.

AM and Damo,

I'm going to disagree with your statement on how smaller woofers tend to be more tight simply because they're smaller. I'd refer to the enclosure to make the woofer more accurate(tight) or being able to provide more low end extension(boominess). The enclosure will dictate the performance of the woofer. We've all heard plenty of woofers in our time. What exactly about a woofer tells you that it's going to sound good? The specs? Seriously? We all know that one can polish a turd. We've seen it.

Why exactly can I not use a 15" woofer for example to play the 1812 overature? Why? Especially when there's a recording of it with real carbide cannons and huge kettle drums! That sounds like big woofer territory to me all the way....low frequency. Even then, one can make an enclosure that will have the 12" woofer playing as low (to a point).
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