The "let's brainstorm how to make a piggyback work" thread

[ChinoCharles]

Hi Charles

We have not test our products on a Yaris before but we are busy looking for one. I will let you know what is the results once we have found a car and have done the installation.

In the meantime could you perhaps let me know what do you expect from this unit i.e. more power, more fuel efficient etc. and what signals have you tried to tune in order to achieve your requirements and what was the results you got with the other units. We would just like to test these aspects as well to ensure that if the unit will be able to meet your requirements.

I will get back to you on the testing once I have more information.

Kind Regards

Marcell Bruynius (Ms.)

Digital Data Systems (Pty) Ltd

Manufacturers of Perfect Power Automotive Systems

22 Arbeid Avenue, Strijdom Park, Randburg, Gauteng, South Africa, 2194

PO Box 35872, Northcliff, Gauteng, South Africa, 2115

Tel: +27 (0) 11 792 9805

Fax: +27 (0) 11 792 9818

Email: marcell@dtwebs.com

Website: www.perfectpower.com

OK guys, help me put together the response. I would suggest that Thomas make a post after this and you can help compile our data and as soon as everyone is comfortable that we have covered all of the bases I'll shoot the e-mail out. If they can conclude that their unit will work, I have a local tuning shop that uses Perfect Power's products heavily and I could be the guinea pig. I'll need a piggyback down the road anyway.

The focus of the discussion should be on power. There is a larger demand for power from tuning solutions than there is fuel economy, although I will make a point to mention that if they can improve fuel economy on a closer to stock Yaris that may generate interest as well.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by CASTREX

I haven't seen "SPLIT SECOND's" name to be called on this thread yet.

These are the go to guys when it comes to tunning for the Large supercharged Toyota Engines.

Also URD (under dog Racing ) but I'm not sure if these guys actually use Split Second's stuff for their tuning devices....

Any ways, these 2 companies know their stuff on modern supercharged Toyota engines.

Not comparing the the Yaris with a Tacoma here... but still worths a shot.

http://www.splitsec.com/



www.urdusa.com

Split Second makes some cool stuff. I know those guys through some mutual friends.

Also, are there Unichips available for the Yaris?

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Loren

I'm not talking about completely faking the O2 signal and locking it down at a fixed value. It would still respond, it would just be "off" a bit, and the ECU would have no way of knowing that.

A system like the LC-1 is VERY tunable. It works like this:
Say the default narrowband O2 sensor output is .45 - 1.5 volts. (not sure if that's right or not, it's something like that) The center of that range represents exactly 14.7.

The LC-1 has not one, but TWO programmable outputs. You could wire one of them to a gauge that would tell you the ACTUAL AFR. The other one you program as a sort of "hybrid wideband" using the standard narrowband voltage range, but centered on something richer than 14.7.

The ECU sees what it expects to see (even though it's not quite the truth), the signal responds to the ECU's commands, and everybody's happy.

Now that I think about it, some additional circuitry may be required to shift the voltage range, but it should be doable. Probably way easier than hacking the ECU.

Tip: The Miata is a far, far more popular car among racers and tuners, and the factory ECU has never been hacked. The closest anyone has ever come is to overclock it with a faster crystal, which has the effect of raising the rev limit and leaning the mixture. I think asking for or waiting for a hack of the Toyota ECU is unrealistic.

The problem with doing that is that it will probably do nothing, depending on now the open loop fueling works. I assume that the car ignores the narrowband sensor all together in open loop like most new cars do.

The chance of getting a "reflash" type solution is slim. The only hope is that the xd is popular enough to get one, and we could use it as well.

For Subarus and Evos there is open source free software to flash the ECU and make any changes you want. Unfortunately there is not that kind of demand in the Yaris market. Probably a Unichip or other piggy back is the most cost effective solution, with add on fuel and timing controllers coming in 2nd.

[eTiMaGo]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

OK guys, help me put together the response. I would suggest that Thomas make a post after this and you can help compile our data and as soon as everyone is comfortable that we have covered all of the bases I'll shoot the e-mail out. If they can conclude that their unit will work, I have a local tuning shop that uses Perfect Power's products heavily and I could be the guinea pig. I'll need a piggyback down the road anyway.

The focus of the discussion should be on power. There is a larger demand for power from tuning solutions than there is fuel economy, although I will make a point to mention that if they can improve fuel economy on a closer to stock Yaris that may generate interest as well.

urgh I'm not gonna have the time to write that up tonight, hopefully tomorrow. Plus I'd really want Garm to chime in with more details on his AEM experiences.

Also Charles, keep in mind that if they have a test car in south africa, the ECU may not be the same as yours. Seeing how seemingly easy it is for SouthEast Asia tuners to set up turbo kits, I am quite sure the US ECU is a lot more finicky.

[largeorangefont]

The tune will increase crusing fuel economy if done correcty.

I can help with the response if needed. I'd even be willing to test it.

[eTiMaGo]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

Split Second makes some cool stuff. I know those guys through some mutual friends.

Also, are there Unichips available for the Yaris?

I've heard of several cars here and Indonesia tuned with those. But, AFAIK, their US distributor has no knowledge of it. Once again I am pretty sure due to ECU differences.

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

The problem with doing that is that it will probably do nothing, depending on now the open loop fueling works. I assume that the car ignores the narrowband sensor all together in open loop like most new cars do.

Yes, that seems to be the case. Open loop tuning should be far easier (as ZPI did), but for some reason looking at the Blitz'ed guys results, that doesn't seem to work too well. In other words we're really looking for a solution to cover both closed loop and open loop operation.

[CASTREX]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

Also, are there Unichips available for the Yaris?

Unichip is what all the Thai turbo Yaris are using with good success. There are a couple of Thai members with the ZAGE turbo kit using the unichip.

However, UNICHIP in the US does not show any supported aplication for the Yaris. I remeber someone from this forum contacting them a long time ago but I gues nothing came out of that...

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by eTiMaGo

I've heard of several cars here and Indonesia tuned with those. But, AFAIK, their US distributor has no knowledge of it. Once again I am pretty sure due to ECU differences.



Yes, that seems to be the case. Open loop tuning should be far easier (as ZPI did), but for some reason looking at the Blitz'ed guys results, that doesn't seem to work too well. In other words we're really looking for a solution to cover both closed loop and open loop operation.

We dont need anything for closed loop. The car is going right to open loop as soon as they get on the gas due to the increased load. When they are off the throttle crusing, the fueling if fine. Closed loop is where the ECU will fight you and "learn" around any changes you make.

You basically need full timing control, and fueling adjustment in open loop.

[eTiMaGo]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

The tune will increase crusing fuel economy if done correcty.

I can help with the response if needed. I'd even be willing to test it.

Yes, if you can start writing it up, post it here, then we can add/change what we need

As for testing, the more guinea pigs the better

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by CASTREX

Unichip is what all the Thai turbo Yaris are using with good success. There are a couple of Thai members with the ZAGE turbo kit using the unichip.

However, UNICHIP in the US does not show any supported aplication for the Yaris. I remeber someone from this forum contacting them a long time ago but I gues nothing came out of that...

There is a UNICHIP that will work, they just dont have the plug and play harness to plug the chip into the US ECU.

I have a dealer tuning kit for the Unichip, so If I could get the right chip, I could concievably make it work.

[ChinoCharles]

Also Charles, keep in mind that if they have a test car in south africa, the ECU may not be the same as yours. Seeing how seemingly easy it is for SouthEast Asia tuners to set up turbo kits, I am quite sure the US ECU is a lot more finicky.

OK, I'll respond with that first and that will give you some time to compile your list of questions.

Marcell,

First of all, thank you for the timely and comprehensive responses thus far. It speaks well of your company and your product.

I think it is important to point out that part of the issue we are having in the US is that our ECU's are different from the rest of the world. They are a little harder to work with. There are numerous examples of successful tunes in Japan using piggybacks. We in the US have nothing but horror stories.

If South African Yarises have similar ECU's to ours, then this will work great. If not, then you may want to source a US car to do testing on. I would be more than happy to help. There is a shop in Ashtabula, Ohio called Twisted Innovations. http://www.tidyno.com They originally referred me to your company two years ago. When piggybacks came up in conversation on the forums, I decided it was probably time to reach out. If we could come to an agreement on how to handle testing the platform on my car I would have no problems with that. I have a car I can use in the meantime.

My engine has the following bolt-on accessories:
HKS Hi-power axle back exhaust
Simota carbon charger SRI
NST crank pulley
NST alternator pulley
NST water pulley
Megan 4-1 header

I have aspirations to add a turbocharger or supercharger down the line. I know your piggybacks are particularly useful in chorus with nitrous systems, so that could be an option too. I also know of various other US owners that could offer assistance. If your company is willing to help us, we're more than willing to help you.

Let me know if you believe research done on cars in South Africa will be applicable to our market. We can go from there.

Thanks again Marcell.

Charles

[CASTREX]

Going back to the Unich topic...

The memeber using it is REVOTURBO from Indonesia

They are using Dastek unichip type Q and dastek turbo module

However they are using larger injectors and a 5th injector set up

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/sho...636#post186636

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by CASTREX

Going back to the Unich topic...

The memeber using it is REVOTURBO from Indonesia

They are using Dastek unichip type Q and dastek turbo module

However they are using larger injectors and a 5th injector set up

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/sho...636#post186636

The Unichip turbo module will support a 5th injector, so that is not a big deal. Pretty standard

[aucorium]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

OK guys, help me put together the response. I would suggest that Thomas make a post after this and you can help compile our data and as soon as everyone is comfortable that we have covered all of the bases I'll shoot the e-mail out. If they can conclude that their unit will work, I have a local tuning shop that uses Perfect Power's products heavily and I could be the guinea pig. I'll need a piggyback down the road anyway.

The focus of the discussion should be on power. There is a larger demand for power from tuning solutions than there is fuel economy, although I will make a point to mention that if they can improve fuel economy on a closer to stock Yaris that may generate interest as well.

hey guys!

i stay in South Africa , i will give this guy a call , and see what he says.

i think the US and south african yari's should have similar ECU's , so if it works on ours , should work on yours.


a friend of mine have a honda Jazz 1.5 vtec / honda fit ,he fitted a UNICHIP , and he gained 4 kw from the chip alone , so not to bad , but then again , the ECU might be different.

i'll get back to you guys.

[eTiMaGo]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

The Unichip turbo module will support a 5th injector, so that is not a big deal. Pretty standard

5th injector's a bit of a last resort solution/hack though, isn't it?

[1nz]

greedy F-manage
he Greddy F-Manage enables you to control the feedback to your ECU, opening a range of tuning possibilities.
Features

* Controls feedback of air/fuel ratio to the standard ECU
* Does not control air/fuel ratio, this is used in conjunction with fuel controllers
* Can be used simultaneously with e-Manage Ultimate data logger
* DIP switches enable control of maps and switch on/off

[eTiMaGo]

well hellooooo there! *starts reading up instead of working* arrrrgh

[eTiMaGo]

Doesn't seem to be officially released outside of Japan, though, so good luck getting instructions in English...

http://www.trust-power.com/03electric/fmanage.html

Seems to have a NCP91 harness already, nice.

But, the million dollar question, will it be able to dance around the ECU's emissions checks...