Questions about downshifting

[Yaris TTE JWRC]

Hey guys, Yaris is my First MT, and im getting a hang of it with no problem now, but now im just learning some of the tricks of sitck shifting, such as the Heel and toe down shifting, and start to get a hang of it, one question to all of you been driving MT for a long time, is it okay for me to just down shift from 5th to 2nd to get the extra pick up of the speed while im traveling about 45-50MPH, the same question, can i just down shift form 5th to 3rd to pick up the extra speed on a High way while im traveling between 75-80MPH, is it bad for the engine, or tranny?

MT pro drivers please educate me

[YamilR]

Originally Posted by Yaris TTE JWRC

Hey guys, Yaris is my First MT, and im getting a hang of it with no problem now, but now im just learning some of the tricks of sitck shifting, suck as the Heel and toe down shifting, and start to get a hang of it, one question to all of you been driving MT for a long time, is it okay for me to just down shift from 5th to 2nd to get the extra pick up of the speed while im traveling about 45-50MPH, the same question, can i just down shift form 5th to 3rd to pick up the extra speed on a High way while im traveling between 75-80MPH, is it bad for the engine, or tranny?

MT pro drivers please educate me

In my opinion, If your going to downshift just go back one gear at a time 75-80mph on 3rd gear is a killer for any tranny

[Yaris TTE JWRC]

Originally Posted by YamilR

In my opinion, If your going to downshift just go back one gear at a time 75-80mph on 3rd gear is a killer for any tranny

ok, what bout from 5th to 2nd at 45-50MPH??

[Pars]

Originally Posted by YamilR

In my opinion, If your going to downshift just go back one gear at a time 75-80mph on 3rd gear is a killer for any tranny

One gear at at time? that's for a stupid sequential system!! Even the vaunted twin shaft system on the VW's can only do it one gear at a time. To get the most out of driving on the streets (with a passion) is to skip gears when downshifting (especially if you have a high revving small engine). It might not make alot of sense on the race track, but it makes lots of sense on the streets. I've avoided my share of accidents on the intersection by ramming it into first (front 3rd or 4th) and getting the hell out of the way asap. If you don't know how to downshift multiple gears on your manual transmission then you might as well be driving a primitive automatic. Granted, a regular automatic can downshift multiple gears when stomping on the gas pedal, but by the time the transmission decide to kick down, I'd already have been t-bone by the truck coming at me. Also, with manual, you can plan your downshift and skip as many gears as needed to give the kind of result desired...which is not possible with an automatic or a sequential system.

[YamilR]

Originally Posted by Pars

One gear at at time? that's for a stupid sequential system!! Even the vaunted twin shaft system on the VW's can only do it one gear at a time. To get the most out of driving on the streets (with a passion) is to skip gears when downshifting (especially if you have a high revving small engine). It might not make alot of sense on the race track, but it makes lots of sense on the streets. I've avoided my share of accidents on the intersection by ramming it into first (front 3rd or 4th) and getting the hell out of the way asap. If you don't know how to downshift multiple gears on your manual transmission then you might as will be driving a primitive automatic.

Go ahead do whatever you want, If your doing 80MPH on a highway, not on a little street like your talking, why in the hell you want to go to 3rd to gain more speed? Who told you that downshifting gears gives more speed, it will give you more power to the engine but no more speed, but go ahead keed driving with a "passion" that's what get people killed

[spkrman]

just dont go 100 and drop it down to 1st :)

[mutatio]

Originally Posted by Pars

One gear at at time? that's for a stupid sequential system!! Even the vaunted twin shaft system on the VW's can only do it one gear at a time. To get the most out of driving on the streets (with a passion) is to skip gears when downshifting (especially if you have a high revving small engine). It might not make alot of sense on the race track, but it makes lots of sense on the streets. I've avoided my share of accidents on the intersection by ramming it into first (front 3rd or 4th) and getting the hell out of the way asap. If you don't know how to downshift multiple gears on your manual transmission then you might as well be driving a primitive automatic. Granted, a regular automatic can downshift mulitple gears when stomping on the gas, but by the time the transmission decide to kick down, I'd already have been t-bone by the truck coming at me. Also, with manual, you can plan your downshift and skip as many gears as need to give the kind of result you desire...which is not possible with an automatic and a sequential system will take too long to do it one gear at a time.

lmao. u must have a special MT that allows u to shift smooth as butter from 4th or 5th to 1st at high rpms. ;) plan indeed.

an AT will downshift within a reasonable degree of tolerance w/ a manual downshift, not just tromping on the gas. i imagine the rpms at which an AT will allow u to downshift manually isn't a far cry from the rpms u need to be at to downshift in an MT w/o grinding the sh!t out of your tranny.

[bigsky2]

If anyone is able to enter 1st gear from a high speed/rev at 3rd or 4th or 5th for that matter, that means you are FORCING IT INTO GEAR.

Most vehicles will restrict you from entering 1st gear from higher speeds and rev while at higher gears because it is meant to conserve and protect the transmission.

It's the same as trying to enter REVERSE from 5th gear (if you have a standard 5 speed configuration with R in the lower right position, just below 5th gear) - you cannot do it unless you force that gear in with a lot of pressure.

Congratulations to you if you are able to hit 1st gear from 3rd/4th gear - your transmission will not be so happy with you.

[Pars]

Given that I'm currently one of the most aggressive driver on the road, in my young days, I used to be lunatic. I used to drive a CRX (15yrs ago)and used to heal-toe at every opportunity. In fact, at one point, I was running on medal on medal (brake pad totally burnt out) for several month (no money for brake work) and was using real-toe downshift to scrub down the speeds. After that experience, I can safely say that the proper place to learn heal-toe is at the race track, going that aggressive on the streets in a bad thing. And to be able to get good enough so that you can use it on the streets, you need the race track to build up the skill (which I stupidly didn't do). If you're not scrubbing down your speeds at a crazy fast rate (equivalent to emergency braking), heal-toe isn't necessary.

I've resigned myself to simply taking my foot off the brake and punch the gas to rev-match when braking. And in an emergency situation, I'll just let the ABS do it's thing. It'd be cool if I was as quick with the heal-toe as I used to be, but the motivation is no longer there, since I'll probably never take the Yaris to the race track and it's not priority for the streets.

Regarding durabiliy... I'm a downshifting freak... Even when I don't need to downshift, I'll pop it into 2nd from 5th and watch the tach climb to the redline for the fun of it. In fact, about 90% of my downshift is 2 or more gears. That being said, I put 300,000km on my old 98 Civic Hatchback and sold it with all the synchronizer still working and original clutch. The key is to be good at revv matching...

[Pars]

Originally Posted by bigsky2

If anyone is able to enter 1st gear from a high speed/rev at 3rd or 4th or 5th for that matter, that means you are FORCING IT INTO GEAR.

Most vehicles will restrict you from entering 1st gear from higher speeds and rev while at higher gears because it is meant to conserve and protect the transmission.

It's the same as trying to enter REVERSE from 5th gear (if you have a standard 5 speed configuration with R in the lower right position, just below 5th gear) - you cannot do it unless you force that gear in with a lot of pressure.

Congratulations to you if you are able to hit 1st gear from 3rd/4th gear - your transmission will not be so happy with you.

I usually pop it into 1st only in extreme situation...it's definitely not something I'd do just for the fun of it. But I did it enough times to be able to execute the downshift in a hart beat. It requires some serious over revving to engage smoothly. Plus, it helped that my old Civic had some very big gearing (I can do 70km/hr in 1st), so tapping into first gear's power while already on the move was a big bonus. Also, when I'm cruising around in the streets on the higher gears, it's usually under 1500rpm... But you're right, downshifting into 1st, is not for the faint of hart and will not engage unless you're going down on the accelerator at the same time.

Regarding transmission durability, my old 98 Civic (which was been driven in the style mentioned above) still had it's original clutch when I sold it at 300,000km.

[Yaris TTE JWRC]

So guys, my question is will the engine, and tranny be damaged after years of double gear downshifting ? or is it okay to do that?, i love the pick up of the speed of double gear downshifting, but i just dont want to damage my car if i could only know please.... all you PRO manual drivers tell me if u ever break an engine or tranny of you cars from you pass by double gear down shift

[mutatio]

for non crazy drivers the rule of thumb is essentially that if u can get the stick into gear in the first place without forcing it, you're in a good place. anytime u feel it grind when u r trying to move it into gear means you're forcing it. as noted u may need to boost your rpms for it to slide in. but no, a double downshift isn't an insane thing to do, assuming you're being responsive to the tranny's feedback. i typically downshift from 4th to second around corners that i'm approaching at a decent clip. 3rd will do, but 2nd gives u the pull coming out of the turn and there's usuallly never any forcing of the gears. your tranny will let u know when it doesn't like what u r doing! ;) :)

[Yaris TTE JWRC]

Originally Posted by mutatio

for non crazy drivers the rule of thumb is essentially that if u can get the stick into gear in the first place without forcing it, you're in a good place. anytime u feel it grind when u r trying to move it into gear means you're forcing it. as noted u may need to boost your rpms for it to slide in. but no, a double downshift isn't an insane thing to do, assuming you're being responsive to the tranny's feedback. i typically downshift from 4th to second around corners that i'm approaching at a decent clip. 3rd will do, but 2nd gives u the pull coming out of the turn and there's usuallly never any forcing of the gears. your tranny will let u know when it doesn't like what u r doing! ;) :)

No im not taliking about u taking a turn that u will brake first then switch to 2nd, im talking about non braking, double downshifting to gian extra speed when going straight. ANd what do u mean by forcing the gears??? i have never felt that before, the only thing i felt is that i can never shift the stick in to 1st whenever im over 10MPH and when u try to shift form 5th to R. the shifter wont let the stick to shift in ,in those two cases, but never felt that i have to force the stick in to any gears, im not getting what you are trying to tell me sry

[Pars]

If you're not using heal-toe to rev-match when downshifting, the actual process of downshifting for both speeding up or slowing down are executed in same manner. Once the shifting is completed, then you can speed up or slow down, but that's after the downshifting has been executed.

If you're not understanding (or it seems too simplistic), then I'd stay with the basic for awhile and just try to be smooth and keep the clutch burn to a minimum (meaning, avoid having the clutch partially engaged and accelerating while on the move). If you can do that and shift as smoothly as an automatic transmission, then the fancy stuff will be a piece of cake.

Usually when a driver is referring to forcing the clutch, it means not giving the synchronizers enough time to equalize the engine speeds (which will put extra wear and tear on the syncs). To give the synchronizer time to do their job, it's better to shift slowly, but not slow enough to be jerky with the car (everything still should be smooth). In my case, when I'm on the boil, which is most of the time, I'm switching as fast as my hands can move. But it's a trade-off, and manual transmission are usually designed to be abused. But there so much they can take and if you're in-experience and forcing things (in general), you're going to quickly wear-out your transmission. Mis-shifting is the kind of stuff that'll cause all the nasty noises from the tranny and the only thing that can be done it that situation, is to go back down on the clutch as fast possible.

[07WYarisRS]

Providing your not over revving the engine and speeds are low enough for the gear you are selecting yes you can sellect any gear.
If engine or car speeds are too high for that gear it's going to grind or over rev the engine and cause damage.

[graywolf_14]

Ok in my car the gears are about 1k apart. at 70mph in 5th I am at 3300rpm, so if I down to 3rd it is pointless because that puts it about 700rpm under redline. One thing going 45 u should be in 4th not 5th but no I would not shift that low. Just because the rpms are higher doesnt mean u will go faster. 1st can only go so fast just like the rest of the gears. That is why there is 5.

[60 Somethings]

It nice that you have all had good luck with your cars driving like mainiacs, but several thoughts from someone who has about 50 yrs of driving under their belt - in almost all stick-shift cars, including three 1970's Alfa Romeos: the word is SMOOTH and controlled. It's fast and it's safer (and the resulting insurance rates will likely be lower).

Some of you are obviously very accomplished to be able to shift from 5th to 3rd at 80MPH or from 4th to 2nd at 35-40MPH and not tear your cars up, but............race car engines and drive trains do NOT last as long as those in normal cars. Plus, all engines have a "power band" and in stock vehicles it's usually several 1,000 RPM BELOW redline.

Might suggest you pick up a Lotus Super 7 if you really have the need for speed and handling on city streets. Keep your Yaris for actual transportation.

[Yaris TTE JWRC]

Originally Posted by 60 Somethings

Some of you are obviously very accomplished to be able to shift from 5th to 3rd at 80MPH or from 4th to 2nd at 35-40MPH and not tear your cars up, but............race car engines and drive trains do NOT last as long as those in normal cars. Plus, all engines have a "power band" and in stock vehicles it's usually several 1,000 RPM BELOW redline.

so from what you are saying is that a normal road car can and well be able to handle the double down shifting? if so in a long term it will still be damage by doing so? several 1000 below red line, u mean if you did reach several 1000 after red line in a gear means no good? the US Yaris HB doesnt have the RPM gauge, i have to listen to the engine noise to drive, one thing really sucks about the US