Is it practical to install stiffer shocks without also installing lowering springs? - Toyota Yaris Forums

St_G · 01-11-2007, 10:54 PM

I would definitely like to reduce the body roll of the Yaris in turns, but I'm pretty satisfied with the stock ride height. How much inprovement could I see without also lowering the body's center of gravity?

03Z33 · 01-12-2007, 03:45 AM

If you replace you shocks/struts with stiffer ones without increasing the spring rates, you may see a slight improvement in roll stiffness but the trade-off will be a much harsher ride and less control at the limit. You may look into some height adjustable coilovers which will allow you to run the car at stock height and you can also benefit from a stiffer front sway bar and adding a rear sway bar.

St_G · 01-12-2007, 09:14 AM

I can see how the higher ride height could mean less control at the limit (which is fine, since I don't drive the Yaris at the limit), but can you explain why stiffer shocks and stock springs would lead to a harsher ride than stiffer shocks and lower springs?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 03Z33

If you replace you shocks/struts with stiffer ones without increasing the spring rates, you may see a slight improvement in roll stiffness but the trade-off will be a much harsher ride and less control at the limit.

03Z33 · 01-12-2007, 09:51 AM

The ride height won't affect the control, it's the mismatched spring/shock combination. Just like having a worn out shock that's too soft will cause bouncing and dangerous driving, a shock that's too stiff can cause undesired affects also. The spring won't be able to go through the proper travel because the shock will over dampen the motion. Little bumps in the road will feel much bigger and more pronounced.

*Chris07LB* · 01-12-2007, 10:14 AM

Any idea why I can't get some shorter (energy suspension) sway bar end links, since going a little over 2" lower in the front, I would have thought Tanabe would have recomended this with their DF's.

Ive changed them on trucks that i've had where we went lower then 2".

03Z33 · 01-12-2007, 10:20 AM

My Silk Road coilovers came with new adjustable sway bar links. Even at the longest setting they are much shorter than stock. I'll take some pics of them for you when I get a chance (they're already on the car). They should be real easy to duplicate, or you can try to buy them separate from any SK dealer (I got mine from John at Bulletproof).

Here's a pic of the end link:

St_G · 01-12-2007, 11:43 AM

I won't pretend to fully understand the reasons -- blame my automotive ignorance, not your explanation, 03Z33 -- but it's clear that changing just the shocks is not a great solution. So how about the opposite? What would installing JUST lowering springs do? It's not something that sounds appealing at first glance to me, since, as I mentioned, I like the stock ride height, but I'm just curious what the end result would likely be.

Spades · 01-12-2007, 11:00 PM

well, on my first car i replaced the struts with slightly stiffer aftermarket struts without lowering. the handling was greatly improved, and the ride did not suffer that much, not as much as it would have if i lowered it. so, if you like your ride height where it is but want better handling, imo, go for it :)

03Z33 · 01-13-2007, 11:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by St_G

I won't pretend to fully understand the reasons -- blame my automotive ignorance, not your explanation, 03Z33 -- but it's clear that changing just the shocks is not a great solution. So how about the opposite? What would installing JUST lowering springs do? It's not something that sounds appealing at first glance to me, since, as I mentioned, I like the stock ride height, but I'm just curious what the end result would likely be.

The idea is that most dampers can handle a certain "range" of spring rates meaning if your stock spring rate is 2K and a Tanabe spring is 3K, this may still be within the range of stiffness the damper can handle. In my opinion this is still a compromise and you shouldn't be suprised if your stock shock wear out prematurely. I had DF210 springs on my car and loved them, but again, ride height wasn't a problem for me (they actually weren't low enough) and I know what to expect. After going to the track and driving some mountain roads, I decided I wanted something a little better, and that's when I upgraded to the coilovers.

For your needs, if a coilover is over the budget you are planning for, you may still consider the Tanabe NF210 spring since it was designed with minimal lowering in mind and is only slightly stiffer than stock so that it still works well with the stock shock. In the end, your best option will be to find a tuned setup with matching parts.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spades

well, on my first car i replaced the struts with slightly stiffer aftermarket struts without lowering. the handling was greatly improved, and the ride did not suffer that much, not as much as it would have if i lowered it. so, if you like your ride height where it is but want better handling, imo, go for it :)

If your stock struts are worn, even a new stock replacement will greatly improve the ride

boris13 · 01-17-2007, 05:03 PM

OK then... which shock/spring setup will improve handling when the car is pushed toward its limits, but will also maintain close-to-stock ride height? I want nimble handling, but also as much clearance under the car as I can get.

03Z33 · 01-18-2007, 11:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by boris13

OK then... which shock/spring setup will improve handling when the car is pushed toward its limits, but will also maintain close-to-stock ride height? I want nimble handling, but also as much clearance under the car as I can get.

In my opinion your best option for this is a coilover suspension that allows the car to run at stock height. Almost all spring and shock combos will lower the car some, and with a coilover the height is adjustable to anywhere you like (even higher than stock).

boris13 · 01-18-2007, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 03Z33

In my opinion your best option for this is a coilover suspension that allows the car to run at stock height. Almost all spring and shock combos will lower the car some, and with a coilover the height is adjustable to anywhere you like (even higher than stock).

OK, thanks... I admittedly don't know that much about these suspensions... with a coilover setup, would both the stock springs and shocks/struts be replaced, or just the stock shocks/struts?

And can you make a brand-name recommendation for me on coilovers? I seriously want to upgrade my Yaris' suspension (again, while maintaining nearly stock ride height). Should I consider a rear sway bar (and/or stiffer front sway bar?) in addition to the coilovers?

03Z33 · 01-18-2007, 01:23 PM

The coilover suspension will replace both springs and shocks. You will only re-use the stock upper mount. I haven't fitted either sway bar to my car yet, my front C-One sway bar is on order and the rear Progress bar is in production. I think the rear sway bar is more important since this car doesn't have one at all from the factory.

I know of four types of coilovers for this car. I've tried three of those so far:

Tein Basic: cheapest retail price, uses twin tube damper and is height adjustable only. I rode in a car with these and the car felt very bouncy and soft for my taste.

Cusco: a little more than Tein, but much better quality and more height adjustment. I had these on my car for 1,500 miles and loved the ride, it's the perfect compromise of good handling and comfort for a street car that will see some aggressive driving.

HKS: I haven't seen these in person yet, they are the most expensive option, but offer dampening control and HKS traditionally make very high quality products.

SK RMA8: I am running these on my car now, I love them! They are a little bit stiffer than the Cuscos but I can lower the car as much as I want and they have 8-way dampening adjustment. They also include adjustable sway bar links for the front.

I am also selling my Cusco coilovers which are barely used, for $900. These go for $1260 new.

01-11-2007, 10:54 PM	#1
St_G Drives: Black 2007 Yaris Liftback 1.5 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Memphis, TN USA Posts: 252	Is it practical to install stiffer shocks without also installing lowering springs? I would definitely like to reduce the body roll of the Yaris in turns, but I'm pretty satisfied with the stock ride height. How much inprovement could I see without also lowering the body's center of gravity?

01-12-2007, 11:00 PM	#8
Spades The Hated One View User's Garage Drives: 07 White Manual Sedan Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Oregon,USA Posts: 390	well, on my first car i replaced the struts with slightly stiffer aftermarket struts without lowering. the handling was greatly improved, and the ride did not suffer that much, not as much as it would have if i lowered it. so, if you like your ride height where it is but want better handling, imo, go for it :) __________________

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01-12-2007, 03:45 AM	#2
03Z33 View User's Garage Drives: TCR10 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,132	If you replace you shocks/struts with stiffer ones without increasing the spring rates, you may see a slight improvement in roll stiffness but the trade-off will be a much harsher ride and less control at the limit. You may look into some height adjustable coilovers which will allow you to run the car at stock height and you can also benefit from a stiffer front sway bar and adding a rear sway bar.

01-12-2007, 09:51 AM	#4
03Z33 View User's Garage Drives: TCR10 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,132	The ride height won't affect the control, it's the mismatched spring/shock combination. Just like having a worn out shock that's too soft will cause bouncing and dangerous driving, a shock that's too stiff can cause undesired affects also. The spring won't be able to go through the proper travel because the shock will over dampen the motion. Little bumps in the road will feel much bigger and more pronounced.

01-12-2007, 10:14 AM	#5
Chris07LB Super Moderator View User's Garage Drives: Yaris Liftback Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: New Jersey Posts: 3,174	Any idea why I can't get some shorter (energy suspension) sway bar end links, since going a little over 2" lower in the front, I would have thought Tanabe would have recomended this with their DF's. Ive changed them on trucks that i've had where we went lower then 2".

01-12-2007, 10:20 AM	#6
03Z33 View User's Garage Drives: TCR10 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,132	My Silk Road coilovers came with new adjustable sway bar links. Even at the longest setting they are much shorter than stock. I'll take some pics of them for you when I get a chance (they're already on the car). They should be real easy to duplicate, or you can try to buy them separate from any SK dealer (I got mine from John at Bulletproof). Here's a pic of the end link:

01-12-2007, 11:43 AM	#7
St_G Drives: Black 2007 Yaris Liftback 1.5 Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Memphis, TN USA Posts: 252	I won't pretend to fully understand the reasons -- blame my automotive ignorance, not your explanation, 03Z33 -- but it's clear that changing just the shocks is not a great solution. So how about the opposite? What would installing JUST lowering springs do? It's not something that sounds appealing at first glance to me, since, as I mentioned, I like the stock ride height, but I'm just curious what the end result would likely be.

01-17-2007, 05:03 PM	#10
boris13 Drives: 2007 Yaris Liftback, 5-speed Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Royal Oak, MI, USA Posts: 167	OK then... which shock/spring setup will improve handling when the car is pushed toward its limits, but will also maintain close-to-stock ride height? I want nimble handling, but also as much clearance under the car as I can get.

01-18-2007, 01:23 PM	#13
03Z33 View User's Garage Drives: TCR10 Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: SoCal Posts: 1,132	The coilover suspension will replace both springs and shocks. You will only re-use the stock upper mount. I haven't fitted either sway bar to my car yet, my front C-One sway bar is on order and the rear Progress bar is in production. I think the rear sway bar is more important since this car doesn't have one at all from the factory. I know of four types of coilovers for this car. I've tried three of those so far: Tein Basic: cheapest retail price, uses twin tube damper and is height adjustable only. I rode in a car with these and the car felt very bouncy and soft for my taste. Cusco: a little more than Tein, but much better quality and more height adjustment. I had these on my car for 1,500 miles and loved the ride, it's the perfect compromise of good handling and comfort for a street car that will see some aggressive driving. HKS: I haven't seen these in person yet, they are the most expensive option, but offer dampening control and HKS traditionally make very high quality products. SK RMA8: I am running these on my car now, I love them! They are a little bit stiffer than the Cuscos but I can lower the car as much as I want and they have 8-way dampening adjustment. They also include adjustable sway bar links for the front. I am also selling my Cusco coilovers which are barely used, for $900. These go for $1260 new.