A related thread to "What's Next for the Yaris" (Ethanol) - Toyota Yaris Forums

Goose · 04-27-2006, 05:05 PM

Rather than hijack the "What's Next for the Yaris" thread, I thought it would be interesting to just start a new one on alternative fuels. There may be some misconceptions regarding the production of some of the new "green" fuels. Misconceptions that are actively encouraged by those who stand to benefit from them.

Be careful what you wish for regarding ethanol - it's not the panacea the American auto industry would like you to think it is. In addition to various trade issues at the moment, the same laws of supply/demand apply to ethanol as they do oil.

Don't get me wrong - I'm for anything that's good for the planet. Sadly, the economics of ethanol aren't much better than oil at the end of the day. Just like oil, the commodity that is used for ethanol (corn) is a finite supply. Although modern farming techniques produce staggering amounts of these commodities, the supply is almost fully committed to feeding billions of mouths... and the number of mouths isn't decreasing. If ethanol is consumed as an alternative to gasoline and its additives, expect prices for corn to skyrocket due to supply/demand. It's already happening.

Hydrogen fuel cells are another noble idea that really won't work on a mass scale. The simple fact with hydrogen is that it requires as much (if not more) units of energy to produce a unit of hydrogen. The end result (if conventional power is used to produce it) is still huge environmental and economic costs. Just because you don't see exhaust coming out the tailpipe doesn't mean that it wasn't pouring out of the hydrogen production plants' smoke stacks. If hydrogen can be produced using "clean" power (solar, wind or something like it), then this problem is negated.

The current ethanol campaign is (in my opinion) an attempt by Detroit to make their outdated gas-guzzlers look "green". Dancing young folks tossing yellow t-shirts in ads won't change the fact that 18MPG trucks (for example) consume far too much fuel - whatever that fuel is.

I just wanted to throw these opinions/info out to the group. Please be assured that I'm not trying to be argumentative with those who like the idea of clean fuels for our cars. Frankly, I think the reason that you don't see import cars jumping on the ethanol bandwagon is that they realize that this isn't the future. I dunno - maybe methane gas, based on naturally decaying organic material (biomass)?

Kinda heavy subject, but interesting nonetheless. Mods, please feel free to move this to a different forum.

04-27-2006, 05:05 PM	#1
Goose Car Geek Drives: Yaris Liftback Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Ohio cornfields Posts: 213	A related thread to "What's Next for the Yaris" (Ethanol) Rather than hijack the "What's Next for the Yaris" thread, I thought it would be interesting to just start a new one on alternative fuels. There may be some misconceptions regarding the production of some of the new "green" fuels. Misconceptions that are actively encouraged by those who stand to benefit from them. Be careful what you wish for regarding ethanol - it's not the panacea the American auto industry would like you to think it is. In addition to various trade issues at the moment, the same laws of supply/demand apply to ethanol as they do oil. Don't get me wrong - I'm for anything that's good for the planet. Sadly, the economics of ethanol aren't much better than oil at the end of the day. Just like oil, the commodity that is used for ethanol (corn) is a finite supply. Although modern farming techniques produce staggering amounts of these commodities, the supply is almost fully committed to feeding billions of mouths... and the number of mouths isn't decreasing. If ethanol is consumed as an alternative to gasoline and its additives, expect prices for corn to skyrocket due to supply/demand. It's already happening. Hydrogen fuel cells are another noble idea that really won't work on a mass scale. The simple fact with hydrogen is that it requires as much (if not more) units of energy to produce a unit of hydrogen. The end result (if conventional power is used to produce it) is still huge environmental and economic costs. Just because you don't see exhaust coming out the tailpipe doesn't mean that it wasn't pouring out of the hydrogen production plants' smoke stacks. If hydrogen can be produced using "clean" power (solar, wind or something like it), then this problem is negated. The current ethanol campaign is (in my opinion) an attempt by Detroit to make their outdated gas-guzzlers look "green". Dancing young folks tossing yellow t-shirts in ads won't change the fact that 18MPG trucks (for example) consume far too much fuel - whatever that fuel is. I just wanted to throw these opinions/info out to the group. Please be assured that I'm not trying to be argumentative with those who like the idea of clean fuels for our cars. Frankly, I think the reason that you don't see import cars jumping on the ethanol bandwagon is that they realize that this isn't the future. I dunno - maybe methane gas, based on naturally decaying organic material (biomass)? Kinda heavy subject, but interesting nonetheless. Mods, please feel free to move this to a different forum. __________________ Kevin '07 Blazing Blue 5-speed liftback (sold) '08 Black auto liftback (sold) '09 Carmine Red auto 4-door liftback (sold)