When to switch to synthetic oil?

[jcove]

Originally Posted by p2filz

im just sayin those races against tcs will be brutal even prius' will be kickin the ass of a yaris maybe a stickshift yaris revved to 6000 rpm's may beat the prius but itll be close... my mom has a prius and i gotta say it doesnt seem to be a sportcar but if u hit the gas 325 lb-ft or torque will relly move you cuz the electric motor has alot of that! any way synthetic wont help go with the regular 10-w30 or 5-w15 whatever it is its asking for dont waste the money homie take it from me you wont win races and synthetic only reduces mpg due to the thicker formula be happy rub in peoples faces that you get 40 mpg* highway! good day

First, synthetic increases you MPG because it flows better. It is not thicker. Second, the Prius is way heavier than the Yaris. So I don't think it would be much better off the line, but I'd like to see it anyway. Always up for a good race even if I loose.

[p2filz]

like i said im not sure i heard it was thicker... all synthetic does is raise the temp at which it starts breaking down reg oil i think starts to break down at about 210* F i think the synthetic goes at 230-245*F or something... again im not an oil scientist im just saying synthetic doesnt really help out a yaris all that much.

[jay]

Whoa - I guess this really can be a heated topic

I don't think it was anyone's intention here to suggest that synthetic oil is a requirement. I think everyone can agree that conventional oil is adequate.

However, my understanding re: synthetic is similar to what yariman posted (a "better oil for any application"). Of course, it may very well be that the greatest return to be had from synthetic is in racing/extreme applications. In everyday usage, the benefit may not be quite as significant, but I would think that it's still there.

Here's where I'm coming from. I would like to do a bit better than just "adequate" for my Yaris. The factors for me are:

- The car has been purchased (i.e. not leased), and I intend to keep it for 5-10 years
- I want a clean, efficient, and low emissions engine
- I live in a climate of harsh winters, and want to reduce the negative effects of cold starts
- I only drive enough to warrant 2 oil changes per year

The incremental cost for me to go synthetic is $CAN20/year. Assuming a small but measurable improvement, I think that's OK.

That's the way I see it. Please correct me if I'm missing something and this is a bad judgement. Cheers

[jcove]

Originally Posted by jay

Whoa - I guess this really can be a heated topic

I don't think it was anyone's intention here to suggest that synthetic oil is a requirement. I think everyone can agree that conventional oil is adequate.

However, my understanding re: synthetic is similar to what yariman posted (a "better oil for any application"). Of course, it may very well be that the greatest return to be had from synthetic is in racing/extreme applications. In everyday usage, the benefit may not be quite as significant, but I would think that it's still there.

Here's where I'm coming from. I would like to do a bit better than just "adequate" for my Yaris. The factors for me are:

- The car has been purchased (i.e. not leased), and I intend to keep it for 5-10 years
- I want a clean, efficient, and low emissions engine
- I live in a climate of harsh winters, and want to reduce the negative effects of cold starts
- I only drive enough to warrant 2 oil changes per year

The incremental cost for me to go synthetic is $CAN20/year. Assuming a small but measurable improvement, I think that's OK.

That's the way I see it. Please correct me if I'm missing something and this is a bad judgement. Cheers

I agree with your decision, that's the way I'm going when it comes time. I have three or four free oil changes from my dealer, so I'll wait until after those are done.

Regarding this being a heated topic, I guess I should watch how I say things. I'm not trying to start any problems. I'm not an engineer or anything, but I've been in the automotive manufacturing industry for a few years and I'm a car fanatic. I know from experiance that Synthetic oil use in Canada makes perfect sense, as the cars start easier in colder weather, it flows better during start up to protect the engine faster and I've experianced significant mileage gains. I've never dyno tested my cars, but it feels like there's more power, I'm guessing because of the lowered friction. It's all just personal preference. I know for sure that it won't void a warranty, so that should be enough right there to tell you there is no down side, at least that I'm aware of.

Oil lasts longer - check (reasonably speaking, according to most OEM engine manufacturers and engine rebuilders, Synthetic should be changed at about 5,000 km under stop and go traffic which most of us fall into due to moisture and dirt that can build up in the oil)
Less friction in engine - check
Better MPG/KPL(kilometers per litre for those of us in Canada) - Check

It's all good to me!!

[jcove]

Originally Posted by jcove

First, synthetic increases you MPG because it flows better. It is not thicker. Second, the Prius is way heavier than the Yaris. So I don't think it would be much better off the line, but I'd like to see it anyway. Always up for a good race even if I loose.

The Prius comment was made in fun, not to offend. Sorry if you took it the wrong way.

[jay]

Nah, I don't think you need to apologize jcove. There was nothing rude or presumptuous said in your posts. My comment was more along the lines of me (as a neophyte) not realizing that the amount of polarization this topic can generate. It was just an honest question, as I couldn't find a consistent answer.

At any rate - considering all the info at hand, I'm pretty comfortable with the plan to delay switching & play it safe.

p2filz, I appreciate the input, but all my research about synthetic oil performance unanimously leads to the same conclusion as to what others have said here (i.e. syn is a better all-round lubricant for a car's engine). Its only disadvantage is a higher price.

Anyways, I get the sense that we agree to disagree. That's cool with me.

[swng]

If synthetic oil can increase fuel economy and offer better protection to the engine, it will pay for itself in the long run. I will discuss with the service manager about changing to synthetic oil when an oil change is due. Thanks guys for the information. Great forum!

[AutoTech1]

There is no harm in using synthetic oil... Infact, it could be a very good thing. I found a link so I don't have to explain it. It's very short, but it gets the point across that others were trying to explain:

http://shop.store.yahoo.com/coolfj40/difbetconand.html

[AutoTech1]

Originally Posted by jcove

First, synthetic increases you MPG because it flows better. It is not thicker. Second, the Prius is way heavier than the Yaris. So I don't think it would be much better off the line, but I'd like to see it anyway. Always up for a good race even if I loose.

Good points.

[p2filz]

http://www.scionlife.com/forums/view...etic+motor+oil
this is where that heated conversation was... they put up a better fight than me

[eight_heads]

well personally i will be switching to Mobil1 full-synth at between 10,000 and 12,000 miles... i've been moding and building import motors(specifically honda/toyota) for a while now and seeing what motors tend to look like after years of cheap oil being run through them i am a true believer in full synthetic oils... i feel that the added cost of full syth is worth it in the long run both in life of the engine and fuel economy... i know alot of people just do the least they can, but i always do the best i can when it comes to take care of my things... i was one of those kids that always saved the boxes my toys came in incase i needed them :p .... anyway, that's what i will be doing and i usually do my oil changes between 3k and 4k miles... but hey, thats just me... what i'm more worried about is what is the best filter in the business when it comes to toyotas?

[Master2192]

The biggest benefit IMO to using Synthetic is the longer oil change intervals. On the Nasioc Forums where I spend most of my time, there is a WRX using Mobile 1 Extended mileage. Doing oil changes at 8000 miles with oil analysis and BlackStone Labs was asking him to go even longer with the oil as it was still coming back in very good condition. I don't remember what filter he was using though. If you want to go that long on oil, make sure the filter is very good and possibly oversized.

[Tankota]

Yikes.. I always love Synth oil debates on the internet.. lol..

I run Amsoil synth in my Tacoma, and only change it about twice a year (about 16k) This is backed up with oil analysis. My Tacoma is a good use for synth, as is sees a lot of harsh use and condtions..

For those that are going to change your oil every 4k-5k, don't bother with synth, you won't see any real benifit vrs the cost. A full real Synth can give you 1-2 mpg depending on the engine, but you will spend more than that on the oil if you change it that often, and the oil will still be clean enough changing it that often you won't have to worry about any wear or breakdown of the oil.

Synth best uses are extended oil change intervals (only Mobil 1 extended and Amsoil series 2000 can be used for this) and for cold weather - True synths still flow at -50C, which is a great help when starting your engines in winter. Synths also perform well under high loads and temps, something that isn't a real issue with the Yaris..

The best thing you can do is make sure you use a quailty oil filter, not some cheap no-name brand... Good filters use synthtic fibers, which they can exactly control the size of the filtering. Again, Mobil 1 filters and Amsoil filters were highly rated. You can do more good for your engine by spending a bit more on a good filter than on the oil. There's even a dual bypass filter setup, that uses a normal full flow filter, and then a second filter that only filters a bit each pass, but can then filter the oil down to 1 micron or less.. Then you have REALY clean oil... again might be a bit much on the Yaris.

This also brings up the breakin myth with the metal particals.. all those should be caught by the filter, and not flowing around in the engine anyways. It would make more sense to change the filter at 1000 miles than the oil, but it doesn't hurt to do both. I change mine at the first 1500 miles, then switch to synth at 6000..

[07WYarisRS]

Another Amsoil user here

I changed mine at 5000km after a hard break in. After all you can't break in rings driving like a pansy....

I run the TRO 2000 0W-30 and change it every 6 months or so. usually in the spring and fall (before the cold and after the cold LOL)

Not only does it provide more HP, better MPG but your engine last longer and maintains it's performance for a VERY VERY long time.
Best of all you save a LOT of $$$

using my truck as an example
I drove it 3 years and put on 100,000km

dealer recommended 5000km oil changes
that's 20 oil changes over 3 years
at $22 per oil change thats $440

With amsoil I change it every 6 months = 6 oil changes @$60
That's $360

If I changed it at Amsoil recommened interval of 1 year = $180

$180 vs $440.....

[paultyler_82]

P2, Synthetic is not heavier simply because it's synthetic, a 5W30 fossil oil and 5W30 Synthetic are the same viscosity. Further, synthetics are capable of withstanding longer oil change intervals, more high rev driving, and more heat before breakdown occurs, this is actually good in any car, doesn't really matter what your driving habits are. Another thing to consider is that most synthetic manufacturers tend to focus on Additive technologies, since most pure synthetics are just Polyalpha-olefin (PAO) base stocks purchased from companies such as Mobil Chemical co. Royal Purple, for instance, places a lot of pride in their proprietary additive blend, and Amsoil places a lot of pride in their oils which can actually promote better MPG. By the way, when I refer to Synthetics, I am refering to Group IV and V synths like Royal, Amsoil, and Red Line. Mobil 1 and Penzoil's Synthetics are Group II and III synthetics... meaning, they are NOT full synthetic as is stated on the bottle, rather they are a blend of PAO base stock and Hydro-cracked mineral oil base stock. I don't really care for that stuff, because it's cheap for Mobil and Penzoil to make and overpriced because it's "Full Synthetic".

[07WYarisRS]

Well said paultyler_82

The difference in viscosity between mineral oils and synthetic lubricatns is they are more stable and have a MUCH wider rang then their mineral oil counter part.

As an example
Q-state peak motor oil (conventional)
5w-30
W- pour point of -30 oC
flash point of 218 o C

Amsoil ASL 5W-30
pour point -50oC
flash point 228 oC

Amsoil TRO 20w-50
pour point -36o C (even though its a 20w)
flash point of 234 o C

The other big difference is stnthetics are more stable over a LOT longer time. With conventional oil as it breaks down the oils thicken and thing and change viscosity quickly. Group IV and V synthetic don't break down nearly as quickly and retain their viscosity much longer.

Last used mineral oils contain corrosive acids that damage internal parts
just one more reason they need to be changed more often or before parking/storing an engine for month or two

[tds12]

Synthetic oil has a better coeffecient of friction. It doesn't matter what type of engine you have. Small cars will benefit as any other car.

[Violin]

The word from Toyota: http://toyota.custhelp.com/cgi-bin/t...p?p_faqid=4010

Synthetic oil may be used if it meets all specifications provided in your Owner’s Manual. Toyota is currently recommending API1 grade SL “energy-conserving” or ILSAC2 multigrade petroleum-based engine oil3 for our vehicles. (The “SL” designation supersedes previous categories such as “SJ” and “SH" and thus can be used in vehicles requiring SJ or SH motor oils.) In moderate climates, this oil should have a Society of Automotive Engineers (SAE) viscosity rating of 5W-30*.
If you decide to use synthetic oil for the engine, it is best not to switch until the first scheduled oil change. Synthetic oil should meet the specifications provided in your Owner's Manual. If synthetic oil is used, Toyota recommends that you continue to observe the oil change intervals laid forth in the Scheduled Maintenance Guide. Also, once synthetic oil is used, you should keep using it and not switch back and forth with natural petroleum-based oil.

While synthetic oil may offer some benefits, in our high mileage tests with preventative maintenance performed at the recommended intervals, petroleum-based motor oil has provided excellent service at a reasonable cost. All Toyota vehicles come from the factory with petroleum-based engine oil.

The Toyota New Vehicle Limited Warranty does not cover any damage to the engine resulting from the use of engine oil that is defective or that which does not meet the specifications provided in your Owner's Manual, regardless of whether the oil is natural or synthetic.