Armchair theory - extreme cold air intake. - Toyota Yaris Forums

Beer Jammer · 08-06-2010, 09:12 AM

Hi all.

I was doing some sitting and thinking the other day. The quest for colder intake air seems to be a very worth while one, with CAI systems giving good gains in performance/response/powerband etc with the 1nz.

I know of the usual mods to acheive this. A cold air feed or position the filter to illiminate heat soak, the "throttle body bypass mod" to name but two.

Now for the armchair theory...

.... if colder and more dense air makes the engine run more efficient, would there be a benefit to routing the air conditioner to feed into the air intake?

I know that the a/c saps power, but would routing its output to feed both the cabin and the engine air intake work to offset this reduction in power and make the engine give better mpg when you use a/c? perhaps then meaning that using a/c reduces mpg by 5% not 10%?

Unless the a/c unit is a very efficient one, I dont think this is a huge performace gainer, but how does the theory stand?

Parmas · 08-06-2010, 09:39 AM

This is one of those things that I thought of it during my build.

Although my theory was that to use the a/c only for the inlet and not also for the cabin. I never tried it and probably never will but I am almost sure the a/c sucks more power than it gives you for the "cooler air inlet". Also keep in mind that the engine bay temperature will actually effect the cool effect. IN The cabin there is no heat emission except your body and the sun but in the engine bay there is lot more heat that could effect the a/c thing.

I tell you, when an idea is worthy it costs ten and gives you twenty or more. This probably will cost you a lot of hassle and money for probably not reasonable gains to be worth to do it.

Probably if you make an external inlet at an exact horizontal with the street you will see more gains than this a/c since outside is 30C and inside engine bay is 60C or more but that's risky for water penetration.

Although keep in mind that Cooler doesn't mean 15C below!

ddongbap · 08-06-2010, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Beer Jammer

Hi all.

I was doing some sitting and thinking the other day. The quest for colder intake air seems to be a very worth while one, with CAI systems giving good gains in performance/response/powerband etc with the 1nz.

I know of the usual mods to acheive this. A cold air feed or position the filter to illiminate heat soak, the "throttle body bypass mod" to name but two.

Now for the armchair theory...

.... if colder and more dense air makes the engine run more efficient, would there be a benefit to routing the air conditioner to feed into the air intake?

I know that the a/c saps power, but would routing its output to feed both the cabin and the engine air intake work to offset this reduction in power and make the engine give better mpg when you use a/c? perhaps then meaning that using a/c reduces mpg by 5% not 10%?

Unless the a/c unit is a very efficient one, I dont think this is a huge performace gainer, but how does the theory stand?

Think, perpetual machine. Doesn't work.

changchewsoon · 08-06-2010, 10:00 AM

how about installing a meth kit?

djct_watt · 08-07-2010, 01:28 AM

The idea makes sense, but it would make no difference, and would end up reducing net efficiency. Let me explain to you why I am bursting your bubble.

1) The amount of CFM (cubic feet/minute) an air conditioner can move is insubstantial next to the amount of air an engine pulls in. It'd be like p***ing in the wind.

2) The gross inefficiency of an any and all air conditioners mean that it takes more power to run the air con than it gains by cooling the air. Simply put, you'd see more power simply by turning it off.

If it's cooler air you're looking for, then the traditional meth injection, nitrous, or other compressed gasses will substantially reduce temperatures. Also, intercooling works too, but really is only worth it on a FI type application.

zachryboles · 08-07-2010, 07:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by changchewsoon

how about installing a meth kit?

sorry im not getting my yaris hooked on smack

yarrr · 08-07-2010, 02:43 PM

mmm perpetual cooling.

http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...ity-d_771.html

NA is the 0 psi column. Even if you change the temp 50 degrees the air gets less than 10% more dense. Then the MassAF reads the higher density and adjusts you back to stock power... lol

A meth kit is a good point. Even on supercharged yarii, the meth kit doesn't really add much hp if any just by cooling, it just prevents knock allowing you to pull more hp out with timing..

Put a battery powered fan and a frozen water bottle in front of the intake. Or move to alaska. I heard a yaris up there drives like a ferrari.

Tamago · 08-08-2010, 08:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zachryboles

sorry im not getting my yaris hooked on smack

you don't know much about water/meth then do you ;)

and the 'gains' from installing meth/water on an otherwise stock car(no engine management, not forced induction) would be almost ZERO. if you can't advance the timing past stock parameters, you won't see any torque (power) gains from this 'cooler' charge of air.

eTiMaGo · 08-08-2010, 09:21 AM

There's always the DEI solution..

cfeng · 08-08-2010, 01:02 PM

Its not a perpetual machine. Think about it this way, if the ac cooled intake yaris runs out of gas will it keep on running?

However this is not an effective way of getting power out of a yaris. Also, even if air is entering the CAI at a low temperature, it is quite a lot warmer when it enters the cylinders. The temperature to be concerned about is that of the air as it mixes with the fuel.

cfeng · 08-08-2010, 01:06 PM

Also someone mentioned the efficiency of an air conditioner, the efficiency of a modern air conditioner is 250+%. Meaning that the air conditioner is able to move 2.5 times heat energy from the cabin of the car to the outside, per unit of energy consumed by the compressor.

ddongbap · 08-08-2010, 04:23 PM

You can't use the output of an engine to make power from itself.

cfeng · 08-08-2010, 05:17 PM

i'll think twice before i buy that supercharger. the theory was it was going to run off the engine to make more power.

ddongbap · 08-08-2010, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfeng

i'll think twice before i buy that supercharger. the theory was it was going to run off the engine to make more power.

Lol. I said that wrong, and thus I got owned. hahaha oops.

Its not a theory btw. The You Tube has a video on it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Wh3ryyqtnG4

cfeng · 08-08-2010, 05:22 PM

haha, i saw the opportunity so i had to take it.

ddongbap · 08-08-2010, 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfeng

haha, i saw the opportunity so i had to take it.

Touche. I'm defeated where I'm defeated.

djct_watt · 08-08-2010, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cfeng

Also someone mentioned the efficiency of an air conditioner, the efficiency of a modern air conditioner is 250+%. Meaning that the air conditioner is able to move 2.5 times heat energy from the cabin of the car to the outside, per unit of energy consumed by the compressor.

I really don't understand what this is supposed to mean or its significance. It is contrary to the laws of thermodynamics, and ignores all physics. You can't create more energy than is initially supplied. It honestly sounds like sales jargon from the box of an AC unit.

cfeng · 08-09-2010, 12:03 AM

I'll try my best to explain this.

A turbo or supercharger system is adiabatic. It increases pressure to force more air into the engine.

The system described by beer jammer is technically another forced induction system, however instead of being adiabatic, it is isobaric, where pressure does not change since the air molecules are squeezed together by cooling.

The flaw with beer jammer's idea, which probably other people see, is that using an air conditioner as a forced induction system involves more imperfect energy transfers where energy is wasted. It employs an air conditioner which cannot surpass carnots predicted efficiency (lose about 20-30% here), then it would need some heat exchangers (20-50% loss, governed by newton's law of cooling). It would be much more efficient to use a turbo or a supercharger.

08-06-2010, 09:12 AM	#1
Beer Jammer Drives: Yaris 1.3 SR Join Date: May 2010 Location: Somerset Posts: 29	Armchair theory - extreme cold air intake. Hi all. I was doing some sitting and thinking the other day. The quest for colder intake air seems to be a very worth while one, with CAI systems giving good gains in performance/response/powerband etc with the 1nz. I know of the usual mods to acheive this. A cold air feed or position the filter to illiminate heat soak, the "throttle body bypass mod" to name but two. Now for the armchair theory... .... if colder and more dense air makes the engine run more efficient, would there be a benefit to routing the air conditioner to feed into the air intake? I know that the a/c saps power, but would routing its output to feed both the cabin and the engine air intake work to offset this reduction in power and make the engine give better mpg when you use a/c? perhaps then meaning that using a/c reduces mpg by 5% not 10%? Unless the a/c unit is a very efficient one, I dont think this is a huge performace gainer, but how does the theory stand?

08-06-2010, 10:00 AM	#4
changchewsoon View User's Garage Drives: Vios Turbo Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Malaysia Posts: 190	how about installing a meth kit? __________________ 454 whp, 1.7 bar boost, pump gas, water/meth. 501 whp, 2.2 bar boost, pump gas + avgas, no water/meth. www.viosturbo.com - World's first 500 WHP 1NZ-FE

08-08-2010, 09:21 AM	#9
eTiMaGo vroom vroom View User's Garage Drives: lil red 5-door Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 7,744	There's always the DEI solution.. __________________ The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish. - Robert Jackson Bye bye 1NZ...

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08-06-2010, 09:39 AM	#2
Parmas Drives: Vitz RS Turbo Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: ML Posts: 576	This is one of those things that I thought of it during my build. Although my theory was that to use the a/c only for the inlet and not also for the cabin. I never tried it and probably never will but I am almost sure the a/c sucks more power than it gives you for the "cooler air inlet". Also keep in mind that the engine bay temperature will actually effect the cool effect. IN The cabin there is no heat emission except your body and the sun but in the engine bay there is lot more heat that could effect the a/c thing. I tell you, when an idea is worthy it costs ten and gives you twenty or more. This probably will cost you a lot of hassle and money for probably not reasonable gains to be worth to do it. Probably if you make an external inlet at an exact horizontal with the street you will see more gains than this a/c since outside is 30C and inside engine bay is 60C or more but that's risky for water penetration. Although keep in mind that Cooler doesn't mean 15C below!

08-07-2010, 01:28 AM	#5
djct_watt Drives: 2010 NCP91 5spd Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Thailand Posts: 449	The idea makes sense, but it would make no difference, and would end up reducing net efficiency. Let me explain to you why I am bursting your bubble. 1) The amount of CFM (cubic feet/minute) an air conditioner can move is insubstantial next to the amount of air an engine pulls in. It'd be like p***ing in the wind. 2) The gross inefficiency of an any and all air conditioners mean that it takes more power to run the air con than it gains by cooling the air. Simply put, you'd see more power simply by turning it off. If it's cooler air you're looking for, then the traditional meth injection, nitrous, or other compressed gasses will substantially reduce temperatures. Also, intercooling works too, but really is only worth it on a FI type application.

08-07-2010, 02:43 PM	#7
yarrr Banned Drives: 07 sedan Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: new mexico Posts: 292	mmm perpetual cooling. http://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/ai...ity-d_771.html NA is the 0 psi column. Even if you change the temp 50 degrees the air gets less than 10% more dense. Then the MassAF reads the higher density and adjusts you back to stock power... lol A meth kit is a good point. Even on supercharged yarii, the meth kit doesn't really add much hp if any just by cooling, it just prevents knock allowing you to pull more hp out with timing.. Put a battery powered fan and a frozen water bottle in front of the intake. Or move to alaska. I heard a yaris up there drives like a ferrari.

08-08-2010, 01:02 PM	#10
cfeng Drives: Yaris 2010 Liftback Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 64	Its not a perpetual machine. Think about it this way, if the ac cooled intake yaris runs out of gas will it keep on running? However this is not an effective way of getting power out of a yaris. Also, even if air is entering the CAI at a low temperature, it is quite a lot warmer when it enters the cylinders. The temperature to be concerned about is that of the air as it mixes with the fuel.

08-08-2010, 01:06 PM	#11
cfeng Drives: Yaris 2010 Liftback Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 64	Also someone mentioned the efficiency of an air conditioner, the efficiency of a modern air conditioner is 250+%. Meaning that the air conditioner is able to move 2.5 times heat energy from the cabin of the car to the outside, per unit of energy consumed by the compressor.

08-08-2010, 04:23 PM	#12
ddongbap Banned Drives: yw calls me douche and racist. Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: hay Posts: 2,183	You can't use the output of an engine to make power from itself.

08-08-2010, 05:17 PM	#13
cfeng Drives: Yaris 2010 Liftback Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 64	i'll think twice before i buy that supercharger. the theory was it was going to run off the engine to make more power.

08-08-2010, 05:22 PM	#15
cfeng Drives: Yaris 2010 Liftback Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 64	haha, i saw the opportunity so i had to take it.

08-09-2010, 12:03 AM	#18
cfeng Drives: Yaris 2010 Liftback Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 64	I'll try my best to explain this. A turbo or supercharger system is adiabatic. It increases pressure to force more air into the engine. The system described by beer jammer is technically another forced induction system, however instead of being adiabatic, it is isobaric, where pressure does not change since the air molecules are squeezed together by cooling. The flaw with beer jammer's idea, which probably other people see, is that using an air conditioner as a forced induction system involves more imperfect energy transfers where energy is wasted. It employs an air conditioner which cannot surpass carnots predicted efficiency (lose about 20-30% here), then it would need some heat exchangers (20-50% loss, governed by newton's law of cooling). It would be much more efficient to use a turbo or a supercharger.