Do I need another amp for a sub-woofer?

[Herbicidal]

I'm smack in the middle of sound deadening my car. I'm staying with the stock head unit for now and bought a 4-channel line output converter and I've replaced the stock speakers with Alpine Type R's (6x9) in the rear deck and Kicker component speakers with tweeters in the front door panels. I also bought and installed an Eclipse EA4200 4-channel amp, perhaps you knowledgeable people can take a look at the specs. To my ears, it sounds great! However, what I realize now is that I don't have much in the way of bass. Those of you 'in the know' probably are saying "DUH!" right about now. I've been looking at a pretty inexpensive sub woofer that another member bought and used with great success. It's a Bazooka-ELB110RS this is a 10" sub.

Questions: I admittedly don't fully understand the outputs on my Eclipse amp and whether I can use it to also power that sub? I'm not looking to blow out my windows, but I would like to round out the sound and right now I have great mids and highs, but no low's.

Did I blow it by buying a 4-channel LOC?
Should I bite the bullet and buy a higher quality LOC?
Would that gain me anything?
Do I need to get another amp just for the subwoofer?
If so, how would I connect it (maybe via the Eclipse amp)?

Man, I'm such a rookie with this stuff. Thanks in advance for the advice and help. Crap, I thought I was going to be happy with just replacing the stock speakers. Hopefully I didn't blow it with my previous purchases.

[derickveliz2]

I knew it! I knew it!

OK, too many options....

How much are you willing to spend?

[derickveliz2]

Look at this diagram, you all ready have the LOC,


That means you will need an amp (mono) for your bazooka, and an EQ.



D.

[Alien Mantis]

If your 4-channel amp has line-outs, use them to connect a little Class D monoblock amp for that Bazooka sub.

You don't need an EQ, because the monoblock has a built-in crossover.

If your 4-channel amp does NOT have RCA line-outs, just use a "Y" and tee-off from your RCA's coming out of the LOC.

Does that 4-channel amp have a built-in High Pass Filter?
( hopefully it does )

Set the HPF crossover on the 4-channel to 125hz.

Set the LPF on the Class D monoblock to 100hz.

Balance your gains. Don't push that sub gain too hard on the monoblock.
It is not a volume knob.

BALANCE everything. And what it is.... is what it is.
If you need MORE bass, you will have to redesign your low-end.

That Bazooka tube is not going to give you alot of bass, but it will help round-out your lower-end some. Just don't expect a miracle, and you will be satisfied.

I don't know the specs on that 10" Bazooka off the top of my head, but I am guessing it might be something like 250watts RMS at 4ohms.
A Class D mono amp around 300 watts RMS @ 4ohms should be fine.
( might set you back around $100 or so )

[Alien Mantis]

Some 4-channel amps have seperate crossovers between 2 channels.

If yours has that, set the HPF for the front components on at 125hz.
Set your rear crossover to FULL and let those 6x9's have some bass too.

Test the PHASE on your monoblock and see how it likes to behave with those 6x9's. Start with the phase on everything set at 0.

Then flip the phase on the monoblock while you are playing music.
See if the bass gets softer or louder. Keep it on whatever setting is loudest.

If the 6x9's start distorting at higher volumes..... switch the HPF on them to match the fronts.

This is all part of TUNING the system.

First, you design the system. Then you buy the parts and do the install. Then you test-and-tune it all to maximize it's potential.

Hopefully when you are all done, you are happy!

[Herbicidal]

Originally Posted by derickveliz2

I knew it! I knew it!

OK, too many options....

How much are you willing to spend?

Oh shut up!!! I'm hoping to get by with the subwoofer and an amp to drive it? So less than $200 would be my guess.

Originally Posted by Alien Mantis

If your 4-channel amp has line-outs, use them to connect a little Class D monoblock amp for that Bazooka sub.

You don't need an EQ, because the monoblock has a built-in crossover.

If your 4-channel amp does NOT have RCA line-outs, just use a "Y" and tee-off from your RCA's coming out of the LOC.

Does that 4-channel amp have a built-in High Pass Filter?
( hopefully it does )

Set the HPF crossover on the 4-channel to 125hz.

Set the LPF on the Class D monoblock to 100hz.

Balance your gains. Don't push that sub gain too hard on the monoblock.
It is not a volume knob.

BALANCE everything. And what it is.... is what it is.
If you need MORE bass, you will have to redesign your low-end.

That Bazooka tube is not going to give you alot of bass, but it will help round-out your lower-end some. Just don't expect a miracle, and you will be satisfied.

I don't know the specs on that 10" Bazooka off the top of my head, but I am guessing it might be something like 250watts RMS at 4ohms.
A Class D mono amp around 300 watts RMS @ 4ohms should be fine.
( might set you back around $100 or so )

Thanks Alien Mantis! I'm going to have to re-read your posts a couple of times to digest all the info. Looks like the Eclipse amp does have preamp outputs. Right now, I have nothing connected to them.



Here's pic of the other side of the amp, looks like there are some filter options:


Here's the spec's which I'm trying to apply to your info above:
Performance:
RMS Power Output (Watts x Channels) 60 x 4
Peak Power Output (Watts x Channels) 100 x 4
Power at 2 Ohms (Watts x Channels) 70 x 4
Bridged Power (Watts x Channels) 140 x 2
Minimum Impedance Bridged 4
Minimum Impedance Unbridged 2
Best Frequency Response 20-20k Hz
THD at Rated RMS Power 1%
Signal to Noise Ratio 80 dB
Input Voltage 14.4v

Features:
Amplifier Class D
Low-Pass Crossover Frequency 30-500 Hz
Low-Pass Slope (dB/octave) 18 dB
High-Pass Crossover Frequency 30-500 Hz
High-Pass Slope (dB/octave) 18 dB
Bass Boost 0-8 dB
Bass Boost Frequency 45Hz
Fan Cooled No
Fuse Rating 30 x 1
Speaker Level Inputs No
Preamp Outputs 1 pair

Additional info:
The Eclipse EA4200 4-channel amplifier delivers 60 watts RMS to each of its channels, or 150 watts per channel in 2-channel mode. Variable high- and low-pass filters determine which frequencies go to your speakers, while a subsonic filter screens out inaudible low frequencies for more efficiency. The amp includes a set of preamp outputs for connecting to another amplifier in your system.

Note: The crossover on this amp is always engaged, either in low-pass or high-pass mode, so the amplifier can't deliver a full-range signal. You can set the high-pass filter to 30 Hz, which will work fine in almost any full-range application.

[derickveliz2]

My kudos to Alien Mantis! well done.

Herb, follow Alien's suggestions and/or just use the preamp out from the Eclipse (that's a clean signal) to a mono amp like Alien Mantis describes it above.

You could also consider a powered sub-box, but then... you know it's addictive and you may want more BASS so maybe the idea of an extra amp it's a good thin; I don't drink, I don't smoke, I don't do drugs but a sound system in my car it's worst than all that for my addiction.

Funny how I look back, and my first plan was to install a powered 6" bazooka tube in the trunk. As of today, my plan changes every day. I learn something new and BOOM! my plan changes a little bit, If I keep up like this I will never finish

Oh this is so much FUN!

D.

[bzinn 1]

shame I jsut sold 3 ID10s for $100,delivering them tomorrow,they would of fit your budget perfectly and gave you great SQ and they also go freaking loud,and can run well off of 200w each.

[Alien Mantis]

GREAT pics and info on that Eclipse amp!

Good job.

That amp is SWEET. Plenty of settings on that sucker. You can make it do exactly what you want it to do.

Set the MONO off on both front and rear.
Set the BASS BOOST to 0 on both front and rear.

Use HPF on both front and rear.

Set the front crossover freq to around 150hz. ( as a close starting point )
Set the rear crossover freq to around 100hz. ( as a close starting point )

Adjust your gains according to your RCA output level on your source.
( Most are around 2-4volts. )

Use that beautiful LINE OUT to connect your Mono Sub amp!

Set your Mono Sub amp crossover LPF to whatever you set your REAR crossover setting to on your 4-channel Eclipse amp.

If it's 100hz, set the mono LPF at 100hz.
( if you choose to try 80hz, then set both at 80hz and see how it sounds )
Whatever you set the REAR and the MONO sub amp LPF at, leave the FRONT crossover set at around 150hz HPF.

TEST IT OUT on your favorite music. See how it all blends together.
Tweak it from there. Small adjustments. One setting at a time.
Tweak... listen carefully..... tweak.... listen carefully.

IF you follow these instructions, you will be close, and have a good baseline.
You might be totally happy with it using these settings.

Let me know how it turns out. Good luck.

[Alien Mantis]

Let us know what SUB AMP you decide to buy!

( and if you still plan on going with a single 10" Bazooka tube )

[Alien Mantis]

ONE MORE THING....

If you wanna try something tricky, AFTER you run my baseline settings, and listen to the system for a bit.... try THIS trick:

Set your REAR HPF crossover at 80hz.

Set your Mono Sub amp LPF crossover at 100hz.

This will give you a 20hz frequency OVERLAP between 80hz and 100hz.
Your rear 6x9's AND your subwoofer will BOTH be playing that 20hz overlap range.... which might boost your total BASS output and sound nice together.
( then again, you might just end up with a nasty mid-bass spike! )

6x9's can put out some bass. It's worth testing them to see how they perform.
As with all tuning.... if you crank your volume, and you get distortion someplace, you gotta back it off with your crossover points, and your levels.
Don't put up with distortion, just because you want a little more BASS.
Back the bass off, and run it cleaner. When in doubt, always choose CLEAN.
Subs are made to play freq's below 100hz. But not all 6x9's or component sets can handle freq's in that range or lower. Most cannot. They will distort at higher volumes.

Once you set your amps, use the EQ in your DECK to fine tune the overall system to your tastes.

[Herbicidal]

Originally Posted by Alien Mantis

Let us know what SUB AMP you decide to buy!

( and if you still plan on going with a single 10" Bazooka tube )

Thanks man for all your tuning tips! I can't take the credit for the pics, I grabbed them from Crutchfields web site. The owners manual for the Eclipse has some hints, but yours are much easier to follow! I'm glad you approve of the amp and thankfully I didn't buy too "cheap"! With all your info in mind, I've been searching on Crutchfield and SonicElectronix and found that Eclipse makes a sub amp! Go figure! I think it would pair up great with the existing one.

It's an: Eclipse XA1200600W Max, XA Series Class D Monoblock Car Amplifier (XA-1200) for $129 at Sonic.

Product Features: XA Series Class D Monoblock Car Amplifier with ICE Technology
RMS Power Rating:
4 ohms: 350 watts x 1 chan.
2 ohms: 500 watts x 1 chan.
Max power output: 600 watts
MOSFET switching power supply
ICEpower class D design
Wired remote bass level control included
LED power indicators
Bass Boost (0-8 dB at 50 Hz)
Bass boost frequency selection (32-64 Hz)
Mono channel operation
Protection temperature (90 C)
Heavy duty aluminum alloy heatsink
RCA level inputs
Screw terminals
Variable low-pass filter (40-200 Hz, Linkwitz Riley 18 dB/octave)
Subsonic Filter (18 dB at 20 Hz)
CEA-2006 compliant amplifier
Frequency response: 20-20,000 Hz
Input sensitivity: 1.2V-8V
Damping Factor: 90
Dimensions: 10-1/4"L x 10-1/8"W x 2-3/8"H
4-gauge power and ground wiring is required for installation.




The subwoofer I'm looking at is either the 10" (ELB110RS for $59) or the 12" (ELW1214P for $69). Both have basically the same specs but the 12" will handle 50-300 watts where the 10" will handle 50-150 watts. I would place it in the trunk and the "footprints" are pretty close too.

[Herbicidal]

Originally Posted by bzinn 1

shame I jsut sold 3 ID10s for $100,delivering them tomorrow,they would of fit your budget perfectly and gave you great SQ and they also go freaking loud,and can run well off of 200w each.

No worries! Glad you found a home for them.

[Alien Mantis]

Originally Posted by Herbicidal

Thanks man for all your tuning tips! I can't take the credit for the pics, I grabbed them from Crutchfields web site. The owners manual for the Eclipse has some hints, but yours are much easier to follow! I'm glad you approve of the amp and thankfully I didn't buy too "cheap"! With all your info in mind, I've been searching on Crutchfield and SonicElectronix and found that Eclipse makes a sub amp! Go figure! I think it would pair up great with the existing one.

It's an: Eclipse XA1200600W Max, XA Series Class D Monoblock Car Amplifier (XA-1200) for $129 at Sonic.

The subwoofer I'm looking at is either the 10" (ELB110RS for $59) or the 12" (ELW1214P for $69).

Yeah, I realize you didn't take the pics, I was patting you on the back for linking the photos and adding the info!

Those Eclipse amps are nice! I almost bought the XA-1200. You can't go wrong with those. Great choice.

Since you are going with such a good amp.... let me steer you towards a WAY better subwoofer than that Bazooka crap.
You just can't beat this subwoofer for value/performance. Grab one of these before they are all gone. The new models are different, and more expensive. At $99 with free shipping, this is a killer deal. And trust me, you will be much happier.



Here is the box you want for the Alpine sub:



1SV10 is the part number for the box. $29 with FREE shipping.
( they have them in black carpet, or grey carpet )

[Alien Mantis]

Here is the link to the subwoofer:

http://www.sonicelectronix.com/item_...+-TYPE+R-.html

You want the dual 4ohm version.

That Eclipse XA-1200 puts out 500 watts into 2ohms.

It will be a perfect match for the Alpine Type-R sub.
That sub comes with jumper leads, and a simple diagram showing you how to wire it up for 2ohms.

[Herbicidal]

Thanks for the links and recommendations! I've added all 3 items to my SonicElectronix "cart", just haven't pulled the trigger yet. The free shipping is huge, but I still gotta pay about $25 in CA sales tax. I think the system will sound awesome with these additions. I may have to buy a kidney belt too!

[Herbicidal]

Well I pulled the trigger, pushed the button, whipped out the credit card, whatever you want to call it on the Eclipse mono channel amp, Alpine Type R 10" sub and an enclosure. Sonic Electronix is here in California, so I should have my stuff by around Thursday. This should round out my system quite nicely! Thanks for the recommendations.

[derickveliz2]

COOL!




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