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Old 02-27-2016, 10:58 PM   #1
mirageman
 
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Cheap hesitation or lag fix

Hello all, proud new owner of a very gently used 09 yaris sedan 5 speed. Fell in love with it right away but was also immediately aware of the apparant lack of throttle response when accelerating from a stop. I've driven stick for 25 years, and I just wasn't getting the hang of this car. I've only had it for about 6 days and stalled it at green lights probably 10 or more times. I thought it was just me getting used to the way this car was made. I did some research and saw I wasn't alone. People have complained online about it and the general answers ranged from it just being the normal "drive-by-wire" response of the car to others saying they don't have that problem. I saw that most if not all the complaints came from people with the manual trans, because they would notice it much easier than someone with an auto. It troubled me more and more with each day, last straw was watching the Mrs stall out like 5 times in the driveway and hearing her wind out the engine to get it moving. I got in and studied. I mistakenly thought there was a time lag in the gas, where it takes a second for the computer to realize you are stepping on the gas, but that is not true. I found that at idle, there is about a quarter inch of play in the gas pedal before any response of the engine. I could step on the gas about a quarter inch and hold it there, and the car would not do anything, as if nothing was going on. It was not a delayed reaction, it was a NO-reaction. I confirmed this by connecting an ultragauge to the obd port and again playing with the gas and watching the rpm for a change. I then looked at the accelerator pedal setup and in an epiphany, saw my fix. The pedal's lever has a step on it that butts up against the housing of the unit. This serves as the endpoint of the pedal's range of motion. I was going to put a piece of plastic in there to take up some space so the pedal will not come up higher than it's effective range. I was going to make it so when you TOUCH the gas now, you're going to GET some gas now. I went to my "man cave" and found some angled hard plastic about 2mm thick and cut a piece to fit in there. With the engine idling, I wedged the piece in there and the engine raced. Too thick. Took a file and thinned the plastic some and retried, still too thick. Kept on thinning the piece little by little until I could put it in place with no response from the engine. That was my sweet spot. Surprisingly, it is no thicker than the plastic used in a common gallon of water, probably less than 1mm. Since it's placement is close to the hinge of the lever, a small change here makes a big change at the end of the pedal. I dabbed some crazy glue on the plastic piece and put it against the step on the LEVER, not the housing. Did this because if that piece were to loosen someday, it would fall to the floor. If it were glued to the housing and someday fall from there, it could theoretically wedge itself between the housing and the lever, holding the pedal down, which we don't want obviously. Anyhow, I let the lever go and let it come to rest holding the piece in place for two hours while the glue dried. I then tried it out and was happier than a pig in sheet. No more lag. Timing of gas and clutch are very intuitive, very natural feeling, just the way it is supposed to be. It also helped with going through all the gears, a day and night difference that cannot be realized until you experience it. This is a safe modification if done right. Worst case, the piece falls off and you're right back to how it was before. Attached picture number 1 shows the finished product, the arrow pointing to the angled plastic (white plastic piece) I had glued to the lever. Picture number 2 shows a close up with the accelerator pressed down so you can see it better.
Attached Images
File Type: jpg 1.jpg (109.3 KB, 483 views)
File Type: jpg 2.jpg (113.6 KB, 481 views)

Last edited by mirageman; 02-28-2016 at 02:51 PM. Reason: added pictures
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Old 02-28-2016, 03:15 PM   #2
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Interesting mod... I'll try it out once my car comes back from the shop.

I would also recommend a throttle controller which also makes a world of difference.
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Old 02-28-2016, 05:06 PM   #3
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Hmm, I think i'll give this a go in the spring. Thanks for the help
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Old 02-28-2016, 07:29 PM   #4
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mod!

I still prefer the feel on my good old throttle cable though.
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Old 03-10-2016, 09:59 PM   #5
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Thank you for this! Brilliant! My gently used new to me 2007 Yaris RS 5 speed was driving me crazy when driven in traffic - made me feel like a newb stick shift driver after 17 years in a manual transmission car. This did the trick!

Quote:
Originally Posted by mirageman View Post
Hello all, proud new owner of a very gently used 09 yaris sedan 5 speed. Fell in love with it right away but was also immediately aware of the apparant lack of throttle response when accelerating from a stop. I've driven stick for 25 years, and I just wasn't getting the hang of this car. I've only had it for about 6 days and stalled it at green lights probably 10 or more times. I thought it was just me getting used to the way this car was made. I did some research and saw I wasn't alone. People have complained online about it and the general answers ranged from it just being the normal "drive-by-wire" response of the car to others saying they don't have that problem. I saw that most if not all the complaints came from people with the manual trans, because they would notice it much easier than someone with an auto. It troubled me more and more with each day, last straw was watching the Mrs stall out like 5 times in the driveway and hearing her wind out the engine to get it moving. I got in and studied. I mistakenly thought there was a time lag in the gas, where it takes a second for the computer to realize you are stepping on the gas, but that is not true. I found that at idle, there is about a quarter inch of play in the gas pedal before any response of the engine. I could step on the gas about a quarter inch and hold it there, and the car would not do anything, as if nothing was going on. It was not a delayed reaction, it was a NO-reaction. I confirmed this by connecting an ultragauge to the obd port and again playing with the gas and watching the rpm for a change. I then looked at the accelerator pedal setup and in an epiphany, saw my fix. The pedal's lever has a step on it that butts up against the housing of the unit. This serves as the endpoint of the pedal's range of motion. I was going to put a piece of plastic in there to take up some space so the pedal will not come up higher than it's effective range. I was going to make it so when you TOUCH the gas now, you're going to GET some gas now. I went to my "man cave" and found some angled hard plastic about 2mm thick and cut a piece to fit in there. With the engine idling, I wedged the piece in there and the engine raced. Too thick. Took a file and thinned the plastic some and retried, still too thick. Kept on thinning the piece little by little until I could put it in place with no response from the engine. That was my sweet spot. Surprisingly, it is no thicker than the plastic used in a common gallon of water, probably less than 1mm. Since it's placement is close to the hinge of the lever, a small change here makes a big change at the end of the pedal. I dabbed some crazy glue on the plastic piece and put it against the step on the LEVER, not the housing. Did this because if that piece were to loosen someday, it would fall to the floor. If it were glued to the housing and someday fall from there, it could theoretically wedge itself between the housing and the lever, holding the pedal down, which we don't want obviously. Anyhow, I let the lever go and let it come to rest holding the piece in place for two hours while the glue dried. I then tried it out and was happier than a pig in sheet. No more lag. Timing of gas and clutch are very intuitive, very natural feeling, just the way it is supposed to be. It also helped with going through all the gears, a day and night difference that cannot be realized until you experience it. This is a safe modification if done right. Worst case, the piece falls off and you're right back to how it was before. Attached picture number 1 shows the finished product, the arrow pointing to the angled plastic (white plastic piece) I had glued to the lever. Picture number 2 shows a close up with the accelerator pressed down so you can see it better.
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Old 03-11-2016, 10:36 AM   #6
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Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
Hmm, I think i'll give this a go in the spring. Thanks for the help
Gotta ask, why the spring lol?
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Old 03-11-2016, 10:47 AM   #7
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Because when I had originally posted that it was still damn cold out and I had just finished installing my Tokiko shocks in -25 degre weather lol.

Anyways it's warm now so i'll prob give it a go in the next week or so. Just not sure what i'll use as the shim... any ideas?
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Old 03-11-2016, 10:50 AM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
Because when I had originally posted that it was still damn cold out and I had just finished installing my Tokiko shocks in -25 degre weather lol.

Anyways it's warm now so i'll prob give it a go in the next week or so. Just not sure what i'll use as the shim... any ideas?
it's supposed to be high double digits and sunny tomorrow

neway, use a yogurt container or something similar.
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Old 03-11-2016, 04:02 PM   #9
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Very nice! Might fiddle with this tomorrow!! :D
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Old 03-11-2016, 09:31 PM   #10
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I couldn't help but think crazy glue isn't the best thing to use. I was taking a look at the lever today and noticed that it isn't solid. Meaning there isn't a lot of surface area for the glue to grab on to.

Does anyone know of a product they think would be ideal for this situation (2 smooth surfaces in variable temperatures)? Maybe i'm just being overly cautious. I'm going to give it a shot tomorrow and i'm not sure if I'm going to use rtv or crazy glue.
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Old 03-12-2016, 10:52 AM   #11
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Just finished up doing the mod. Used a piece of clear thin plastic from a product wrapping package. Used super glue and attached it to the module not the actual pedal lever as there is more surface area there. If it falls on and somehow jams the throttle I can just depress the clutch and throw it in neutral so no worries there.

We'll see how well it holds, i'll be driving it in a half hour so it's only had about 2 hrs to cure but seems solid.

Pro tip: when you're down there you might as well tighten up the clutch stop screw. I had about a 1cm play in my clutch pedal and decided to finally finally something about it. 3 quarter turn or so of the 14mm bolt and the play is all gone.

I'll let you all know how I find it, but i'm looking forward to it
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Old 03-15-2016, 06:03 PM   #12
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Found this thread super interesting, but can't say I feel that kind of play without response in my pedal. Anyone else with '07s feel that much lag/delay in response?
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Old 03-15-2016, 06:37 PM   #13
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I ended up adding a second shim to th original one I installed. Both are holding up well. To be honest I don't notic , huge difference by feel but judging by the lack of clutch chatter i'm getting, I seems to do the trick.

I'd still recomme doing it since it costs nothing and does seem to make a difference with the throttle lag. I did notice a big difference in clutch feel from adjusting that though. Do both while you're down there
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Old 04-04-2016, 09:49 PM   #14
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tmontague View Post
Just finished up doing the mod. Used a piece of clear thin plastic from a product wrapping package. Used super glue and attached it to the module not the actual pedal lever as there is more surface area there. If it falls on and somehow jams the throttle I can just depress the clutch and throw it in neutral so no worries there.

We'll see how well it holds, i'll be driving it in a half hour so it's only had about 2 hrs to cure but seems solid.

Pro tip: when you're down there you might as well tighten up the clutch stop screw. I had about a 1cm play in my clutch pedal and decided to finally finally something about it. 3 quarter turn or so of the 14mm bolt and the play is all gone.

I'll let you all know how I find it, but i'm looking forward to it
OH MAN! Please put that spacer on the lever. It will fall off and wedge that pedal open the day you let someone you love drive that car. YOU know it's there and what to do, but no one else does. While there is less surface area on the lever, there is no tension or pressure moving it anywhere so very little surface area is needed. It is basically resting in place when on the lever.
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Old 04-04-2016, 10:09 PM   #15
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Update for all, I believe there is another issue going on here. Specifically, the first gear stalling issue. While the spacer I put has made it perfect no less than 90% of the time, there are still times when I stall out in first. It is like someone throws a switch and the engine dies. I believe a sensor must be off somewhere. I noticed in the 2000 miles I've driven since this mod, that when cold, I don't have any problems. I can be idling and release the clutch slowly and it will not stall. When fully warmed, if I'm at a light and start to engage the clutch, I don't even feel the car budge, the darn thing just shuts off. As soon as the engine gets loaded, poof....I am convinced it is not sensing the engine load and just like a lawn mower I have that stalls as soon as it touches a blade of grass, it dies since it doesn't have the fuel. ECU is not calling for more fuel fast enough. It doesn't happen often, really. At this point, I am used to this car enough to be aware of when this is about to stall and adjust pedal position, but it does surprise me sometimes. I will be investigating further as it warms up here in the Northeast, but I am certain this is the case. It is certainly not a low torque issue, this is acting just like a stalling under load due to not enough fuel, and it is sporadic in nature. This is unrelated to the dead space of the pedal, which the spacer works very very well at least in my car. Another point which probably should be another topic, my car has surged twice. I use an ultragauge attached to my obd port almost all the time to monitor MPGs, and it also tells me if I'm in open/closed loop. I was going downhill at 65mph or so and I let off the gas. The car accelerated to 75 rather quickly and I glanced at the ultragauge and found I was still in closed loop as if I was still on the gas. That's why I accelerated that much and that fast. I tapped the gas pedal and then it went into open loop and coasted normally. That was strike one. Strike two was just the other day I was driving normally and there was a quarter-second minor surge. There is no question about it. I was absolutely steady on the gas on a steady road and the thing lurched forward like I stepped on the gas. I miss cable-operated throttle terribly. Check this out, happened in a Yaris: https://www.consumeraffairs.com/news...ve-010116.html

Last edited by mirageman; 04-04-2016 at 10:20 PM.
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Old 04-05-2016, 12:30 AM   #16
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mirageman View Post
It will fall off and wedge that pedal open the day you let someone you love drive that car. YOU know it's there and what to do, but no one else does. While there is less surface area on the lever, there is no tension or pressure moving it anywhere so very little surface area is needed. It is basically resting in place when on the lever.
No one else drives my car but me...I make sure of that

With how my flimsy plastic "spacer" is added there is actually less risk of it jamming between the pedal due to gravity and the natural bend of the plastic spacer.

It will fall away from where it is glued and away from the pedal. Had I mounted it on top, gravity could cause it to fall and get jammed.

The reason you likely don't have the stalling issue when the engine is cold is due to the revs hanging higher which causes the car to want to drive in first gear and not stall.

Don't be afraid to Rev to 2k rpm when letting out the clutch, smal engines need more throttle to avoid stalling
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Old 04-05-2016, 02:25 AM   #17
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No no, engine soon after cold startup, idling at 500 or 600. It is running richer at that time, that's why it doesn't stall very easily. Needs very little gas to get it moving. When warm or hot, it won't even put up any kind of a fight to stay alive, it'll just keel over and die the instant the clutch starts to grab. I won't even feel any motion or struggle or movement of the car. Definitely not normal. 2000 rpm sounds like an amateur is at the wheel when your inside the car, people outside the car would shake their heads! Small engine yes, but still power to weight is pretty damn good. Old car was also a 1.5, 12 valve 92hp with a slightly heavier car and did not have these issues. It is definitely a fuel ratio issue hot and under load.
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Old 10-01-2019, 12:53 AM   #18
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Sorry for unearthing this old thread,
I have an 04 Yaris 1.0 with the same infuriating problem, I use the double acceleration trick at red lights, first quick tap on the paddle to "wake up" the beast then the second one to actually take off.
was a solution ever found?
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