The open political discussion thread. Read the first post! - Page 5 - Toyota Yaris Forums

GeneW · 08-02-2009, 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLyttle

It would seem that the scariest thing in the US is "socialised medicine", and that those pinko commies to the North are doing just fine with it. I mean, how are those poor middle men supposed to steal a living if one can't profit from the sick without lifting a finger? The HMOs' right to gouge is written into the Constitution someplace, isn't it? Some of the videos I've seen are saying almost as much.

The HMO's "right to gouge" was given to it by the US Congress in 1972, by Ted Kennedy. Pl 93-222 1972.

Yes, the same Ted Kennedy who today is "giving America Health Care", a kind of care that he won't be getting as a Senator, gave America the HMO.

Everyone ought to think long and hard about it - if the HMO is so shitty what does that tell you about its architect and what does it tell you about his next "great idea"?

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Most countries have a form of social medicine, a system which allows ALL citizens to be covered equally.

Don't buy it. "Private" plans and physicians are available in Great Britain, and probably elsewhere in Europe.

In the USSR it was necessary to bribe the Physicians and other health workers for anesthesia, clean sheets and post Op care.

In China patients now pay cash for services - capitalism has arrived in China I suppose.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Is that the complaint? That one can't just buy their way to the head of the line?

I work damn hard for my money and my bennies. Why should some lazy dope smoking slacker get the same quality of medical treatment as myself? Why should I wait in line behind them?

What incentive does a Canadian have to work hard to get ahead in life?

Oh, that's right, they don't.... those who work harder get taxed harder, don't they? That's also true in the US, for now anyhow.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Here in Canada, the only card I need to show is my health card: my Visa card stays at home. Why is that such a frightening concept? When I had a stroke, I was attended to RIGHT AWAY, and didn't have to wait while they checked my credit rating.

I whip out my BC/BS card, which I pay for every two weeks. I get to the front of the line. I don't wait. I don't grovel to the Docs to get me anything special. They also bug me about my weight, which I'm losing and give me low costs annual exams so that I don't end up getting a stroke in the first place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLyttle

The US taxpayer is being sold a load of rubbish with the paranoia about single-payer health systems by the profiteers. It works, and it works well.

The Canadian taxpayer has a higher level of per capita debt than their American counterparts, and Canada isn't pissing away money on Carrier Groups, ICBMs and other war toys.

Were it not for Canadian tar sands I have this feeling that Canada could not afford their noble experiment in equality. Maybe they'd have to let the elderly die - as does happen in Great Britain, through starvation in hospital.

Canada is gradually losing Doctors and Nurses, mainly to the US. The average Canadian is waiting far far longer for "Chronic" procedures than insured Americans.

By the way T, NOT ONE US CONGRESSMAN or CONGRESSWOMAN will be covered under Obamacare. They have their own "elite" medical services. Every American ought to think long and hard about it - why does Congress and our Elected Officials have a different medical coverage than us Proles?

Tells me that Obamacare is gonna suck, big time.

Does the Prime Minister of Canada go to a regular Hospital or do they have their own elite care too? I sure hope that Canadian politicians don't have their own elite medical care, what's the point of "equality" if some are more equal than others?

Gene

GeneW · 08-02-2009, 12:46 PM

British NHS refuses to pay for steroid injections for chronic pain sufferers.

Quote:

Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.

By Laura Donnelly, Health Correspondent
Published: 7:45AM BST 02 Aug 2009
Tens of thousands with chronic back pain will be forced to live in agony after a decision to slash the number of painkilling injections issued on the NHS, doctors have warned.
Cuts to treatments would save the NHS £33 million. Photo: ANDREW CROWLEY

The Government's drug rationing watchdog says "therapeutic" injections of steroids, such as cortisone, which are used to reduce inflammation, should no longer be offered to patients suffering from persistent lower back pain when the cause is not known.

Instead the National Institute of Health and Clinical Excellence (NICE) is ordering doctors to offer patients remedies like acupuncture and osteopathy.

Specialists fear tens of thousands of people, mainly the elderly and frail, will be left to suffer excruciating levels of pain or pay as much as £500 each for private treatment.

The NHS currently issues more than 60,000 treatments of steroid injections every year. NICE said in its guidance it wants to cut this to just 3,000 treatments a year, a move which would save the NHS £33 million.

But the British Pain Society, which represents specialists in the field, has written to NICE calling for the guidelines to be withdrawn after its members warned that they would lead to many patients having to undergo unnecessary and high-risk spinal surgery.

Dr Christopher Wells, a leading specialist in pain relief medicine and the founder of the NHS' first specialist pain clinic, said it was "entirely unacceptable" that conventional treatments used by thousands of patients would be stopped.

"I don't mind whether some people want to try acupuncture, or osteopathy. What concerns me is that to pay for these treatments, specialist clinics which offer vital services are going to be forced to close, leaving patients in significant pain, with nowhere to go,"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/he...njections.html

Yes, US Private insurers will also deny treatments... and if you're sick of it you pick a new insurer during "Open Enrollment".

Meanwhile in Britain it's "do or die", but hey, it's fair, isn't it?

Gene

TLyttle · 08-03-2009, 09:24 PM

Don't eat all of that, Gene, some of your information is a bit faulty. As a Canadian, I, too, hear a lot of stuff about long waits, and the lack of availability of some medications that are supposed to be "miracle" cures. We have no more problem getting surgeries and medications than the AVERAGE American. Whatever your health coverage costs you (or your company) is going to be far more than what the SAME coverage costs me, period. If you are lucky enough to be covered, fine, but what happens if you end up being assessed with a "pre-existing condition" and are required to defend yourself against such an assessment? Please don't tell me that this scenario isn't a regular occurrence in the US, the stats say otherwise. After my stroke, my medical coverage, or its cost to me, changed not one whit.

If the Brits (the Canucks are fighting this fight as well) are accepting the US model of private coverage, to the disadvantage of many average people. The Canadian doctors and nurses are lured by that old greed factor, again a US import; so much for the Hippocratic Oath, taken over by the Hypocritical Curse. Even your line about "average Canadians" waiting longer than "insured Americans" points to the real problem: 47 MILLION Americans are NOT insured, many millions more UNDERinsured; some system!

And yes, our Prime Minister (and most of the legislators) uses the public system. And yes, sometimes they depend on other systems, but no more than our (or your) hockey or football players. If we could keep the doctors and nurses we send to the US, things would be easier, and cheaper; see line about "greed". The infringement of the US system on ours is a product of US lobbyists for the HMOs etc: they work hard to find (and tape and photograph) people whose ailments aren't being taken care of right away. Yes, their problems are indeed real, but the blame rests with early political decisions and the lobbying. In either case, the difficulties being reported by, say, Rush Limbaugh, are overblown and sensationalised, American style.

Find some other sources, Gene, not necessarily those who give you information that suits your view.

JBougie · 08-04-2009, 01:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by PK198105

he will never know he's banned.........

Is he really banned??

TLyttle · 08-04-2009, 11:31 AM

Me? Not yet...

ChinoCharles · 08-04-2009, 12:23 PM

Gene's a goner.

TLyttle · 08-05-2009, 11:42 AM

Whaaat? Why??? I found Gene's repartee enlightening and intelligent for the most part, I guess I'm next....

Bob Dog · 08-05-2009, 12:27 PM

Too heavy a hitter for the more sensitive folks, I guess. I disagreed with him about 70% of the time, but found his diatribes intellectually stimulating in an adversarial kind of way. He was a mental sparring partner who could take a hit and keep punching.

eTiMaGo · 08-05-2009, 12:27 PM

Gene enjoyed seeing how far he could push moderators. til we pushed back, simple as that

ChinoCharles · 08-05-2009, 12:31 PM

Gene was not banned due to his political beliefs. He was banned for saying something wildly inappropriate to me via PM. We will never ban people based on their beliefs, but the moderation staff does demand a certain level of respect that Gene was not willing to offer. That is all that needs to be said about it. Back on topic.

TLyttle · 08-05-2009, 11:53 PM

Fair 'nuff...

JBougie · 08-06-2009, 01:33 AM

Well, if things were said through PM then we will never know what was said, but it had to be bad if it got him banned. I was about to lose every ounce of respect for the moderators on this forum if it was based on his beliefs.

Thank you guys for proving you aren't evil. lol

JBougie · 08-07-2009, 06:57 PM

I am going to rant for a second. Very simple complaint ...

I am so damn sick of as soon as conservatives start doing what liberals have done FOREVER we get labeled as 'extremists' and 'dangerous' - yet, what is it when liberals do it? 'Peaceful protesting'

Really? REALLY?!? Ugh. It drives me INSANE.

Malaya1221 · 08-07-2009, 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBougie

I am going to rant for a second. Very simple complaint ...

I am so damn sick of as soon as conservatives start doing what liberals have done FOREVER we get labeled as 'extremists' and 'dangerous' - yet, what is it when liberals do it? 'Peaceful protesting'

Really? REALLY?!? Ugh. It drives me INSANE.

that sux...wait till they release the dogs or the full force of the govt...forced dissapearance....baton cracking up skulls...fire hoses...put you in jail because of your beliefs...worst, killing you or your families...then, u really have something to complain about.

JBougie · 08-07-2009, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malaya1221

that sux...wait till they release the dogs or the full force of the govt...forced dissapearance....baton cracking up skulls...fire hoses...put you in jail because of your beliefs...worst, killing you or your families...then, u really have something to complain about.

That won't start for another few years.

Malaya1221 · 08-08-2009, 04:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JBougie

That won't start for another few years.

that can't be! according to some people, 12/21/12 is the end of the world!

in any case, we still have few years to change things(better or worse....but, it's up to us)!

TLyttle · 08-07-2009, 09:32 PM

I think that you should have a look around, JBougie, not just around the US. Check other countries to see how successful they are, regardless of the big difficulties your country face right now. Even Canada is doing better for a few simple reasons, not the least of which how horrible "liberalism" is when applied to a civilised society. Many people see the US as being less and less civilised as time goes by. It wouldn't hurt you to see why, simply by getting some perspective.

Not meant as criticism, just a quiet suggestion...

JBougie · 08-07-2009, 10:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I think that you should have a look around, JBougie, not just around the US. Check other countries to see how successful they are, regardless of the big difficulties your country face right now. Even Canada is doing better for a few simple reasons, not the least of which how horrible "liberalism" is when applied to a civilised society. Many people see the US as being less and less civilised as time goes by. It wouldn't hurt you to see why, simply by getting some perspective.

Not meant as criticism, just a quiet suggestion...

Yes. Yes. Yes. Government is the answer to all our problems. Screw having to be responsible for yourself.

08-05-2009, 12:27 PM	#9
eTiMaGo vroom vroom View User's Garage Drives: lil red 5-door Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Bangkok, Thailand Posts: 7,744	Gene enjoyed seeing how far he could push moderators. til we pushed back, simple as that __________________ The price of freedom of religion, or of speech, or of the press, is that we must put up with a good deal of rubbish. - Robert Jackson Bye bye 1NZ...

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08-03-2009, 09:24 PM	#3
TLyttle Drives: 07 Yaris sedan Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Keremeos BC Posts: 986	Don't eat all of that, Gene, some of your information is a bit faulty. As a Canadian, I, too, hear a lot of stuff about long waits, and the lack of availability of some medications that are supposed to be "miracle" cures. We have no more problem getting surgeries and medications than the AVERAGE American. Whatever your health coverage costs you (or your company) is going to be far more than what the SAME coverage costs me, period. If you are lucky enough to be covered, fine, but what happens if you end up being assessed with a "pre-existing condition" and are required to defend yourself against such an assessment? Please don't tell me that this scenario isn't a regular occurrence in the US, the stats say otherwise. After my stroke, my medical coverage, or its cost to me, changed not one whit. If the Brits (the Canucks are fighting this fight as well) are accepting the US model of private coverage, to the disadvantage of many average people. The Canadian doctors and nurses are lured by that old greed factor, again a US import; so much for the Hippocratic Oath, taken over by the Hypocritical Curse. Even your line about "average Canadians" waiting longer than "insured Americans" points to the real problem: 47 MILLION Americans are NOT insured, many millions more UNDERinsured; some system! And yes, our Prime Minister (and most of the legislators) uses the public system. And yes, sometimes they depend on other systems, but no more than our (or your) hockey or football players. If we could keep the doctors and nurses we send to the US, things would be easier, and cheaper; see line about "greed". The infringement of the US system on ours is a product of US lobbyists for the HMOs etc: they work hard to find (and tape and photograph) people whose ailments aren't being taken care of right away. Yes, their problems are indeed real, but the blame rests with early political decisions and the lobbying. In either case, the difficulties being reported by, say, Rush Limbaugh, are overblown and sensationalised, American style. Find some other sources, Gene, not necessarily those who give you information that suits your view.

08-04-2009, 11:31 AM	#5
TLyttle Drives: 07 Yaris sedan Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Keremeos BC Posts: 986	Me? Not yet...

08-04-2009, 12:23 PM	#6
ChinoCharles Banned Drives: LB Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: OH Posts: 7,787	Gene's a goner.

08-05-2009, 11:42 AM	#7
TLyttle Drives: 07 Yaris sedan Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Keremeos BC Posts: 986	Whaaat? Why??? I found Gene's repartee enlightening and intelligent for the most part, I guess I'm next....

08-05-2009, 12:27 PM	#8
Bob Dog DARK PHASE OF THE MOON Drives: 07 liftback Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: the Boondocks, NC Posts: 993	Too heavy a hitter for the more sensitive folks, I guess. I disagreed with him about 70% of the time, but found his diatribes intellectually stimulating in an adversarial kind of way. He was a mental sparring partner who could take a hit and keep punching.

08-05-2009, 12:31 PM	#10
ChinoCharles Banned Drives: LB Join Date: Jul 2006 Location: OH Posts: 7,787	Gene was not banned due to his political beliefs. He was banned for saying something wildly inappropriate to me via PM. We will never ban people based on their beliefs, but the moderation staff does demand a certain level of respect that Gene was not willing to offer. That is all that needs to be said about it. Back on topic.

08-05-2009, 11:53 PM	#11
TLyttle Drives: 07 Yaris sedan Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Keremeos BC Posts: 986	Fair 'nuff...

08-06-2009, 01:33 AM	#12
JBougie Banned View User's Garage Drives: 2010 Yaris LB (Prev: 07 Sedan) Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Beech Bluff, TN Posts: 1,266	Well, if things were said through PM then we will never know what was said, but it had to be bad if it got him banned. I was about to lose every ounce of respect for the moderators on this forum if it was based on his beliefs. Thank you guys for proving you aren't evil. lol

08-07-2009, 06:57 PM	#13
JBougie Banned View User's Garage Drives: 2010 Yaris LB (Prev: 07 Sedan) Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Beech Bluff, TN Posts: 1,266	I am going to rant for a second. Very simple complaint ... I am so damn sick of as soon as conservatives start doing what liberals have done FOREVER we get labeled as 'extremists' and 'dangerous' - yet, what is it when liberals do it? 'Peaceful protesting' Really? REALLY?!? Ugh. It drives me INSANE.

08-07-2009, 09:32 PM	#17
TLyttle Drives: 07 Yaris sedan Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Keremeos BC Posts: 986	I think that you should have a look around, JBougie, not just around the US. Check other countries to see how successful they are, regardless of the big difficulties your country face right now. Even Canada is doing better for a few simple reasons, not the least of which how horrible "liberalism" is when applied to a civilised society. Many people see the US as being less and less civilised as time goes by. It wouldn't hurt you to see why, simply by getting some perspective. Not meant as criticism, just a quiet suggestion...