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02-22-2010, 04:38 PM | #1 |
snubby wubba
Drives: '09 silver 5-door Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central CA Coast
Posts: 15
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Is highway wander caused by caster?
Hi folks, long time member, long time lurker, newbie poster.
At highway speeds my 5 door liftback needs constant attention to drive in a straight line down the road. I think I found out why. I came across a forum discussing the new Toyota Corolla's similar complaint with the steering. A coincidence is that the Corolla has electric steering assist too. Check out posts #94 and then #98. http://townhall.edmunds.com/direct/view/.f1d0fdf/90 Post 94 is an account of a guy that had his caster adjusted and said his steering improved (less wander). Then in post 98 this other guy replies that he always thought the reason Toyota gave it less caster is that it makes steering easier. Easy steering would require a less powerful and smaller electric motor, smaller wires, smaller alternator, battery, etc. He thinks their motive is to save money on the smaller parts and I agree. In the forum I linked to, it seems a lot of people don't understand what the complainers are talking about. They reply saying the electric assist is great. Which it is. I love mine in parking lots. And I love its simplicity because there is no hydraulic pump sapping power and potentially getting leaks in the future (however I'd rather have no power steering altogether because I don't think it is needed on such a small car). Back to the topic, the the issue is the wandering, so naturally the complainers blame the electric assist because it is the new technology associated with the steering. The theory is that it is not the electric assist that is the direct problem, but the caster setting. If this theory is true, the electric assist is the reason for the problem, but indirectly, because Toyota set the caster to make steering effort easy on their new electric assist steering technology and this setting makes a the car wander. If a car has electric or hydraulic power steering, it shouldn't wander down the road as it goes in a straight line. I've driven 8 cars may miles in my life ranging from an '84 Corolla to a '64 Dodge Dart to a '90 CRX to a '95 BMW 525i. They ranged from light weight and no power steering to moderate size and advanced power steering. They all did not wander as bad as my Yar-Yar. It appears many Carolla owners are speaking up about the issue. Check out post 101. It has this link to an article where the NHTSA is studying the Corolla problem. http://content.usatoday.com/communit...ing-problems/1 Why is the same action not taken with the Yaris? Until now, I attributed the wander to the small size, light weight, and tall height making it easily affected by the wind so I didn't complain to anybody but myself. I think other people haven't complained because they attributed it to the same characteristics as I just stated. FYI: Here's a link to the NHTSA (National Highway Traffic Safety Administration) where complaints can be made. http://www-odi.nhtsa.dot.gov/ivoq/index.cfm I hate to put extra stress on the beloved mother of my Yar in this time of other recalls, but what the hell Toyota?! I expect a straight tracking car! If anything, make a car with no power steering. There are other Americans like me that don't require unnecessary fluff (power steering on a small car) to powder my butt with. I am a tweaker (with mechanics, not meth ), and now I want to have my caster measured and depending on its angle, have it set to the more extreme angle while still being within spec. In order do this it looks like my option is to cut out the cone shaped protrusion from the strut tower that the top of the shock fits into and then adapt some other vehicle's camber/caster kit to the strut tower and shock. Is anybody out there that has changed the caster? Any recommendations on a good shop that knows what they're doing in So. CA? Are there any camber / caster kits for the Yaris in this country or others? |
02-22-2010, 05:10 PM | #2 |
What?
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB Join Date: Nov 2008
Location: Safety Harbor, FL
Posts: 1,006
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Without reading a bunch of stuff you've linked, or most of your post...
The Yaris has no caster adjustment. I'm betting the Corolla doesn't, either. You can make the car track straighter with a little bit of toe-in. If you want to tinker, try adding a rear swaybar. Proper toe-in (a tenth of a degree or so... 1/16-1/8" total toe in) and a rear swaybar should give you a wander-free Yaris. |
02-22-2010, 05:18 PM | #3 |
snubby wubba
Drives: '09 silver 5-door Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central CA Coast
Posts: 15
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Thanks, I'll try that. Its much easier than caster and hopefully does the trick. I do have a rear sway bar installed from TRD and it gave me much more stability (and a great handling beast of a car) but I'm still not satisfied with the tracking.
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02-22-2010, 07:05 PM | #4 |
Drives: 2009 yaris sedan base Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: 02809
Posts: 74
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OK not that I want to jump onboard, but same issue here... ordered a swaybar to help I hope it does... if not springs... It is affected by the wind a lot, but still at higher speeds 80 or so I need to slow down to keep her straight..... it's constant attention has caused my wife to blacklist the car and she won't drive it or allow my son in it...... my own issues in life with only 2600 miles on the car....
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02-22-2010, 07:12 PM | #5 | |
Drives: 08 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: California - Bay Area
Posts: 2,773
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Quote:
So take your case just have it aligned to have a bit of toe in and it will correct your issues. If not atleast make it substantially better. Our cars do get tend to be knocked around a bit with high winds at freeway speeds since they are so small and lightweight with a short wheel base.
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02-22-2010, 07:35 PM | #6 |
Drives: 2010 Yaris Join Date: Jan 2010
Location: Abilene
Posts: 131
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Caster is what leans a tire into a turn. It does not cause a car to wander, pull probably, but not wander. An improper toe setting will cause wander. Not sure what the Yaris specs are (have not done alignments since 1992), but have the toe setting checked and adjusted as necessary.
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The moving power of mathematical invention is not reasoning but imagination. Augustus de Morgan Truth does not change because it is, or is not, believed by a majority of the people. Giordano Bruno |
02-22-2010, 08:23 PM | #7 |
Drives: 08 sedan at Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: long island
Posts: 313
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nothing much to do, our yaris were not designed for highway driving, more of a city driver, i know how u feel - my car loves wandering, especially on wide open highways
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02-22-2010, 09:10 PM | #8 |
Or just loosen your grip on the wheel :)
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02-22-2010, 09:33 PM | #9 |
Reluctantly Crouched...
Drives: 2008 Yaris HB M/T Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: DFW, TX
Posts: 867
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You need a slight toe-in to avoid wander. I have mine set to zero toe-in and don't have any real wander issues, but there is a noticeable difference in self-centering.
Regarding the idea that the Yaris wasn't made for highway driving, I think that's silly. I can cruise for hours at 80 mph and the car is a champ. I think its as much a highway car as any other compact. |
02-22-2010, 09:54 PM | #10 |
snubby wubba
Drives: '09 silver 5-door Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central CA Coast
Posts: 15
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Chew,
thats a serious bummer with the wife's blacklisting! The swaybar is a must just because it makes it handle the corners so much better and its pretty cheap and easy. You can tell your wife it makes it much more stable at high speed turns like slight bends in the highway. But if you went so far as lowering springs, she might not like the ride quality as in bumps. I go by the motto in my sig if you know what I mean. Ranger SVO, on what you said about caster not causing a car to wander, I disagree. I like thinking of the forks on a bicycle. If a bicycle didn't have any caster, it wouldn't tend to go straight. Think of a scenario where the neck is directly above the wheel axle and there would be no inherent forces keeping the wheel straight besides your arms. With caster, its like the weight of your body and the bike keeps the wheel straight. Does this make sense? PaddyMac, believe me, I've changed my driving habits with this car. Right now I use a loose grip, but with more attention. ozmdd, I agree, I think any car can do well on straight highways at 65mph. For example my 4 door '86 Corolla with power steering did fine. My Yar does get knocked by the wind but on a calm day I still get unacceptable wander. I like the concept you mentioned of self centering, I think when I let the steering wheel go it doesn't go to center as easily as my other cars. And I think this is the caster.
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Think outside of the box. Last edited by Snubba; 02-22-2010 at 10:03 PM. Reason: making more sense |
02-22-2010, 10:17 PM | #11 |
Drives: '08 LB MT Bayou Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Colorado
Posts: 1,671
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The day I drove it home from the lot I noticed a little wander, but nothing I would call terrifying. Added larger/wider wheels and tires and that seemed to improve it a bit. Then I added a rear sway bar and the wander is pretty much non-existent. Drove it from Colorado to Maryland and back last summer and had zero issues with wandering.
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02-22-2010, 10:37 PM | #12 |
Only Happy When it Rains
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I've never really noticed any wandering issues. Oh wait, yes I have. I am wicked paranoid though, and I chalk it up to that usually. Speaking of paranoia, I have to go find my wheel locks. Now that is scary, not something you want to lose...
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02-22-2010, 10:41 PM | #13 |
Super Moderator
Drives: 2014 White VITZ Join Date: May 2007
Location: Huntington Bch, CA
Posts: 4,938
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Initially had quite a bit of wander. Now, with wider wheels and tyres and 34,000 miles, have no wander to speak of.
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02-22-2010, 10:53 PM | #14 |
snubby wubba
Drives: '09 silver 5-door Join Date: Dec 2008
Location: Central CA Coast
Posts: 15
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kimona,
I have about 16K miles logged so far. I have wider rims and tires and a rear sway bar and both of these helped to reduce the wander. Its not that bad, I could handle an all day drive but it would fatigue me more than if I used another car. I don't drive over 70mph often due to the heavy presence of revenue hungry CHP officers in my area. Its just not as good as I want it to be. I think I have high standards for this car since its my first that I bought new. I wonder if your suspension settled and broke in? Maybe some bushings got a little worn but in a good way? Maybe they engineered this into the car?
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Think outside of the box. |
02-23-2010, 01:17 AM | #15 |
Drives: no-longer-boosted '10 Yaris Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Angus, Ontario
Posts: 1,891
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funny.... i drive highway all the time with no hands on the steering (busy eating, texting, coffee, playing, adjusting....u get the point) and my only complaints are coming out of a turn or sometihng of the sort finding center is a bit of a job (steering does have a little bit of play or dead zone) but once the wheels are happy and true they stay like that....
quick thought (please dont let this offend anyone) check ure tire pressure.... u will be surprised how much 3psi difference will make. make sure all tires are the same, not jsut in range....
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If it has boobs or wheels sooner or later your gonna have problems with it |
02-23-2010, 12:19 PM | #16 | |
Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009
Location: Middletown, NY
Posts: 1,502
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Quote:
BTW, the fist time I drove my Yaris in high croos winds, I was pleasently surprised about how stable it was considereing its configuration. |
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02-23-2010, 01:46 PM | #17 |
Drives: no-longer-boosted '10 Yaris Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: Angus, Ontario
Posts: 1,891
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Yes I am, dnw, always have one hand on the wheel, but very lightly at times. But really for a car top of the line costs around 22000 I'm very happy
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If it has boobs or wheels sooner or later your gonna have problems with it |
02-23-2010, 02:59 PM | #18 |
Drives: 2009 yaris sedan base Join Date: Sep 2009
Location: 02809
Posts: 74
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OK as far as driving goes, I am more then able to do that... I am not a freaky tight fisted driver... trained in CEVO I and II, pursuit driving, advanced defensive driving, .. My backround is in EMS and law enforcement with a hobby of auto racing.... car isn't the worst it could be, just more then my wife will deal with especially since we live on the coast and there is wind all the time.... As far as tires, I am anal retentive about them... especially since I have michelin x ices on for the winter..... but it was still the same with the stock integritys (which I hate)....
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