DEBATE: Analog vs Digital - Class D vs Old School Amps

[TOLMACH]

^SQ

We are a bit of the topic, my apologies to the thread starter

I am a permanent resident status in Canada, not a citizen, and require a visa to go to the US which I do not have (( IMy install is not progressing at the moment as I am studying now. (I am still using the oem woofers and need to do some minor work on my crossover networks) .. I would still be happy to come to the event in Coquitlam to see what IASKA is about (not sure IASKA welcomes half done systems). Would also be interesting to listen to your system.

Do you happen to have the date for the Coquitlam event?

[sqcomp]

You don't have to compete. You are more than welcome to though.

June 17th SoundsGood in Coquitlam
July 15th Performance Stereo in North Van
July 29th SoundsGood in Burnaby
August 26th Canadian Western Finals in Coquitlam

It'd be interesting (getting back on topic) to be able to plug in two "identical" amplifiers powerwise on the same signal chain, one a class A/B and one a D class, both at the same retail price point, bypass the processing and just listen...and draw conclusions.

[TOLMACH]

SQ, awesome, thanks man

You will be present at any of the above?

[sqcomp]

Perhaps on August 26th.

I know I'll be putting together my own Western regional IASCA finals.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by _S7V7N_

K Debate away . Taken from a diff thread.








Keep it clean !!

Richard clark once held a bet that no person could tell the difference between two amps (by listening alone) 10 out of 10 times... he put up money too. Nobody ever won. Back then the argument was Tube Amp vs Class A/B amps.

Once you take away eq's, crossovers, and other sound processing tools there is virtually no audible difference between amps. Yes there are some uber technical discussions we could have about different qualities in amps, but really, what amp you by (all other things being equal) will have less than a 1% difference in your install.

Simply put, too much energy is spent trying to figure out which amp will sound best. People would be better off learning how to design crossover networks and tweaking with the crossovers that came with their component speakers. Crossover networks arguable might be the single greatest factor in a stereo install. followed by enclosure design, and then speaker placement. everything else is the fine tuning that makes up the last 10%.

with that said, i'll be running a/b amps in my install... but my install is far from normal as i'll only be running 460rms. With twice as much power going to my components as to my sub(s). The reason for the a/b amps however is solely because they are cheap.

[sqcomp]

This is exactly what I was divining...

A Watt is a Watt.

As amplifiers stand simply slapping in one over another I still submit that the difference we will hear primarily would be in the dynamic power differences. If I rememeber, we are most sensitive to amplitude differences especially in the upper mid range.

The subject of source amplification difference between an analog valve amplifier, A/B, and a full range D class amplifier is an interesting topic. The thing is, having heard various setups of all those types of amplifiers, there's give and take with all of them.

I agree that a tube amplifier can sound spectacular. The thing is, so can an A/B or a D...to the same level. The idea of supremacy of one type over another is arguably moot given similar ranges of specifications. Now, what specs to pic and choose from is another question. It ultimately would have to be determined side by side between amplifiers...hence the amplifier challenge.

The funny thing is that one could probably take all crunch or boss amplifiers to world championships and have a damned good chance at winning given a good effort with all the other tertiary issues to deal with in a world class level vehicle.

[_S7V7N_]

Pyle and Lanzar amps FTW !!!

[sqcomp]

Don't include speakers in this. There shouldn't be much argument about being able to hear the difference between speakers.

[patm]

"RR... You are impotent." ?????

Referring to post #14

[sqcomp]

In other words RR's arguments are moot.

Not only are they so very esoteric but they're so hugely general in scope, it's like reading a horoscope and basing your life decisions of it.

He won't answer any questions. He changes his arguments when he is called to the mat. I asked two simple questions and he could not give an answer to what he considered good analog and bad digital sources.

Oh, to answer his question about a good digital source music piece sounding just as good if not better on a digital source and digitally mastered, Flim & the BBs Big Notes album. Tricycle is another great example. Also, you notice how much he talks about the car being a terrible platform for music? One has to ask, then why is he even in here talking on a car forum about CAR AUDIO if he condemns it so.

With the way he complains about it, it's apparently obvious that he has nothing of substance to talk about regarding car audio subjects. RR needs to stick to his home audio world. You like the "warm" sound off tube amps and record players? Great! I appreciate them as well. The thing is...that "warmth" is not accuracy. I'll take the "convenience" of my 32 bit DSP and quadruple 24 bit D/A converters and 115 dB S/N and 1/10th the size of his record player...especially in my vehicle. And yes, I can take my equipment and make it play in the home audio environment...to include my speakers. And it WILL sound as good as any setup you can bring.

There have been 100's of bets placed where an audiophile said he could tell the difference, and in every case, where the experiment was done correctly, he was proven wrong. Think Placebo effect.

Until RR wants to put a true analog source in his car, his argument is compromised. There is nothing in his car and I'd be more than willing to bet even in his home that isn't influenced digitally. Oh no! God forbid.

http://www.audioasylum.com/audio/vin...es/765335.html

[_S7V7N_]

Feem em to the Sharks !!!!!

NOM NOM NOM

[sqcomp]

One thing I need to note though...

THIS IS SUBJECTIVE! Each of us hears things just a little differently. RR likes his analog sound. Awesome, I enjoy it as well. I enjoy the digital domain a little more than he does. Awesome.

Are either of us wrong for appreciating what we do? Not at all. It's all in the approach. Absolutes are bad. It's like saying "I'm the best". There is ALWAYS someone out there that will beat you at your game.

[sqcomp]

Adding more fuel to the fire...

The following is a direct quote from an 8 time IASCA sound quality champion, Scott Buwalda:

"In less than a year, Jeremy and I will officially proclaim the end of the age of passive crossover devices in garden-variety component sets. In ten years, passive crossovers will be right up there with the cassette deck. It is my hope that we will be considered the forefathers of this idealogy."

"...Anything less than McIntosh in Black Betty would have been a sin, punishable with 40-lashes. But I will say to the group that I cannot hear the difference between the Arc Audio SE series and JL Audio HD series in a tightly controlled, heavily tweaked car audio environment in the G35. In fact, I prefer the JL Audio system because of power, dynamics, size and form factor, and stereo separation. This might shake to the core what perhaps a few on this very team hold as truth. I am even more convinced today than I was when I was quoted in 2004 that amplifiers of a certain quality truly do not add any value in the car audio environment. Installation and speakers make 99% of the magic formula. I promise anyone reading this, using Black Betty as a test mule with all of her fancy phase correction and impulse response correction, exposing the efficacy, ability, and shortcomings of the amplifiers, that no one reading this message right now could acurately identify the difference between McIntosh MCC602TM's and any other amplifier of reasonable quality, including Class D JL Audio. All that being said, some (including many judges) believe in the magic of electronics, and this is why we generally recommend 'name brand' Class A/B amplifiers, that don't have a negative stigma, especially in high-profile cars where the amplifiers are prominently mounted. I threw mud in the face of the community at Daytona with my D-class amplifier system, but I wouldn't recommend that as a matter of course, because the mind and preconceived ideals are far more powerful than any human interaural system."

My arch-nemesis on this topic will probably call Scott a hack or say that he has no idea what he's talking about. I can invariably say that this man has had more seat time in top end home audio listening rooms, top flight car audio systems, and recording studios (being a musician) than anyone RR can actually bring to the table on a whim.

Scott has iterated what I've been saying regarding hearing a difference between amplifiers. All else being equal, you CANNOT hear a difference between "different" Watts. If you can, you're hearing something else that has been induced.

There is the interesting snippet at the beginning of the quote as well regarding passive crossovers. I'm interested to see how this plays out over time. One should note that he's talking about CAR AUDIO. *hint hint* -for anyone who wants to change the specifics of what we're talking about in this thread.

This following quote is from an electrical engineer that works for IBM and designs his own amplifiers and processors:

"The ability to hear what you expect to hear is undeniable" -Jeremy Carlson

This goes for EVERYONE, myself included.

[RedRide]

Originally Posted by patm

"RR... You are impotent." ?????

Referring to post #14

I would refer you to post #18!


The net is full of posters who only post/repeate what others have posted on the net with no reguard to its accuracy.
They have become experts at only hearing what they want to hear.

Now, excuse me while I pop some more corn.

[_S7V7N_]

Red Ride link up to some post that support your views and opinions and support your claims. Please make sure they are recent and not from 1995.

[RedRide]

My OP in the original thread only concerned anilog VS digital sources and had absoloutely nothing to do with digital amps except to say that amps of C-64 era sound just as good as modren amps.
Can anyone honestly provide proof that disputs this?

In addition, it was solely about the potential of anilog sources and I never claimed that all anilog sources were superior to digital sources!

My OP......

I let you in a secret that many are in denial over.
Sound quality was no different back then and in some ways, even better.
Fact is, high qualty, high dynamic range anilog is better than compressed digital any day.

Also, about the only advantage of modern amplifiers is that they are much more efficient, not that they sound better than amps of the C-64 era.

Get with reality people. Those who have no argument generally make up ther own false arguments...... just as flaky politicians do

[sqcomp]

Indeed! Follow your own line of thought RR. Especially with the last sentence. Seems to me you're the only one still back floundering in the C-64 era.

Take the plunge. If you truly believe what you say, then you only stand to gain by using today's amplifiers. You insinuated it yourself. They'll be more efficient and sound just as good.

Now, knowing that you're talking about analog sources and not amplifiers anymore, do you want to tailor this debate to car audio? I mean after all, this is a car audio thread.

Should I put a winking smiley or a barfing one?

[RedRide]

Originally Posted by sqcomp

Indeed! Follow your own line of thought RR. Especially with the last sentence. Seems to me you're the only one still back floundering in the C-64 era.

Take the plunge. If you truly believe what you say, then you only stand to gain by using today's amplifiers. You insinuated it yourself. They'll be more efficient and sound just as good.

Now, knowing that you're talking about analog sources and not amplifiers anymore, do you want to tailor this debate to car audio? I mean after all, this is a car audio thread.

Should I put a winking smiley or a barfing one?

A poster merntion the "C-64" and it's the only reason I mentined it. My post had little to do with car audio, I assumed it would be obvious but, guess not.

It was in respons to this post.....

I'm going to be 41 in June, I used to be one of those that you could hear/feel blocks away! I just never knew about sound quality and what was all about! I started playing with a comodore 64, Atari, Pac Man, Space Invaders etc, now I enjoy playing Wii with my family. Still love the out doors and good music!

Keep in mid that I never said that I did not like modern amp. All my present amps are "modern". I've experimented with Tripath amps for my home system for example.

Why do some insist on arguing where no argument exists?