Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site
 

 


 
Go Back   Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site > Second Generation Toyota Yaris Main Rooms > General Yaris / Vitz Discussion
  The Tire Rack

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 05-03-2007, 08:48 AM   #19
Yaris Revenge
GIGA...DRILL...BREAKER!!!
 
Yaris Revenge's Avatar
 
Drives: Lagann. ;P
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: My own little world.
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by BailOut View Post
This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. The (for example) Prius is most commonly a household's main vehicle, and as you can read on just about any hybrid site on the Net most folks stop driving their secondary cars pretty much altogether in favor of their hybrid.



This is complete, utter, total, shameful, fairyland, unicorn-shat crap. For one thing hybrids haven't even been on the road but for 10 years now in Japan, and for just 6 years in the rest of the world, so it is impossible to know that folks will be dumping them at the 12 year point. Additionally, even 1st generation hybrids like the Insight and Prius I tend to sell for exactly as much as they were bought for, even at a second resale, which means they are well in demand and have expected longevity. Let's also not forget that the typical Toyota car is good for at least 300,000 miles and the typical Honda is good for at least 200,000. It will take longer than 12 years for most folks to hit those mileage counts. Conversely the average American car is an 80,000 mile disposable vehicle. Keeping anything GMC or the others have built on the road for 20 years takes so much repair, maintenance, upgrades, etc. that to not take that into account in the "study" (I use the term quite loosely) is a crime.



Again, please be careful what information you spread. There is enough FUD, disinformation, misdirection and other generally bad information in the world without any of us adding to it or propagating it.
BailOut, I agree with you that the Prius is more a household vehicle than anything else. I've never spotted a fleet Prius, and a hybrid as a secondary vehicle honestly makes no sense.

However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. How many 1970-1980 model Japanese cars do you see running around out there? Not nearly as many as you do American cars. I'm not saying one's better than the other, I'm just saying that people tend to hang on to the American cars longer (why I can't say), thus ultimately the American cars are the ones racking up the higher mileages.

~YR
__________________
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Yaris Revenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 09:14 AM   #20
flint_mica_manual
 
Drives: S Sedan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsmitchell View Post
You are just proving the point that you didn't take any time to READ THE REPORT. It goes into great detail about the much typed about but seldom read lifespans of the vehicles, and their methodology of how they came about. I realize other sites are quick to judge, but they could have done exactly what you did. Knee jerk reaction.
Yes I did, the report's methodology is flawed. It is right-wing shill.
flint_mica_manual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 05:29 PM   #21
nsmitchell
 
nsmitchell's Avatar
 
Drives: LB-Auto-PWR-ABS-Cruise-Springs
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,065
I see no proof that the Prius lasts as long as some may think ON AVERAGE. Sure some Priuses may last over that mileage. For example, did you know that leaving a Prius to sit without driving it for over two weeks will void the warranty on the battery? Well now! http://www.consumeraffairs.com/autom...s_battery.html. Only hybrids will have this issue. How about all the extra electronics needed for the hybrid system. Can a mechanic fix all that stuff if it gets gremlins? Not really. Mostly, the car is disposable. The cost to fix it may cost more than the car is worth. All these things are taken into account. Believe me, I was sceptical too, until I READ THE REPORT. It explains about why the numbers seem out of whack. "right-wing shill"?? How come, if they were trying to boost GM sales or something, they would list the xB as the least impact? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd. And the highest impact vehicles are the most COMPLEX, not necessarily the most expensive, or gas guzzling, or sipping for that matter. Come on folks, it's not black and white. The Earth is round, not flat like most people believed before proven otherwise. Sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem at first glance.
__________________
Other car is a 2005 Mustang Convertible 4.0L V6 Manual - Legend Lime
Get YarAss in gear!
RIP - Casey Tatum
nsmitchell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 05:37 PM   #22
PetersRedYaris
 
PetersRedYaris's Avatar
 
Drives: 2005 Scion xB
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: The Black Hills of South Dakota
Posts: 1,059
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge View Post
...However, I have to disagree with your American "80,000 mile disposable vehicle" comment. Toyotas may be good for 300k miles, but I've certainly never seen one. ~YR
How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...
PetersRedYaris is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 06:39 PM   #23
IllusionX
It's the illusion you see
 
Drives: 07 Yaris Sedan Aero
Join Date: Oct 2006
Location: Brossard, QC
Posts: 3,888
for traveling short distances... ppl have also modified their prius to plug-in charge the vehicule every night.
some ppl have managed to get over 250 USMPG!!!

search plug in hybrid on google. Though, it would be a really bad idea if your home electricity is charcoal or oil powered...
IllusionX is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 10:42 PM   #24
Andrew Chalmers
 
Drives: NA
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: NA
Posts: 27
Uh... so how do these generalizations apply to the individual driver? These "reports" say what?

btw - nsmitchell... most people assume things to be false until proven to be true... it isn't up to other ppl to demonstrate that the report is wrong - but up to the authors to demonstrate that its true. Assumptions made about consumer/driver habits without data = baseless assumptions.
Andrew Chalmers is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 10:49 PM   #25
spkrman
Banned
 
Drives: 1
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 2
Posts: 1,476
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris View Post
How have you never seen one? I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars. In fact the only really high mile American made cars I have seen are trucks, in particular Dodge Cummins with ~750,000 miles. I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.

Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...
x2...

This is why everyone tends to unload their cars before 100k, or swap it for a beater... yet if you have a toyota/etc you just keep on chuggin, you know it'll last another 100k without flinching.

btw by end cost... I'm sure a used, POS but good mechanical condition metro would lay the smack down on any hybrid or yaris :)
spkrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-03-2007, 11:41 PM   #26
graywolf_14
 
Drives: um not a yaris but hopefully
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Wichita ks
Posts: 207
It is great everyone is talking about mpg and the environment. I cant get approved for a car so I am getting a $250 83 pontiac grand prix than when I get a job in the town I live I will hopefully end up putting in a 455 with a few mods. It will maby get 18mpg and the tires I go through alone will create more bad stuff than the yaris motor does.
graywolf_14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 12:15 AM   #27
spkrman
Banned
 
Drives: 1
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: 2
Posts: 1,476
Quote:
Originally Posted by graywolf_14 View Post
It is great everyone is talking about mpg and the environment. I cant get approved for a car so I am getting a $250 83 pontiac grand prix than when I get a job in the town I live I will hopefully end up putting in a 455 with a few mods. It will maby get 18mpg and the tires I go through alone will create more bad stuff than the yaris motor does.
is that your way of stickin it to the man for not letting you have a yaris?
spkrman is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 12:25 AM   #28
graywolf_14
 
Drives: um not a yaris but hopefully
Join Date: Dec 2006
Location: Wichita ks
Posts: 207
no I had one before and this was my plan with that one. I will probley end up getting a motor cycle and eather sell the pontiac or keep it for a toy. I would rather have a mustang or a monte carlo ss or somehting like that. Shoot I would love a talon tsi or a z car but right now I cant seem to get anything. I just like the thought of a 300hp big motored car right now. Hell or I will keep it and get a small truck I could have a use for a truck.
graywolf_14 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 07:31 AM   #29
wagoneer
 
wagoneer's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 Liftback - Red
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: Wisconsin
Posts: 25
If you are plugging in a Prius to the wall at night....

then 250 mpg means you burn less gas, but you are burning more coal from the power plant to charge it up.

If we could plug our cars in and be totally electric and get infinite miles per gallon of gas (because we don't burn any) we would still be burning coal.

Coal is around 55% of power production in the u.s.
Nuclear is around 21%
Natural gas is ?
"renewables" are ?

nothing is free

to be eco friendly, we should just kill ourselves.
__________________
DRL removed
rear debadged

Tachometer installed
Mudguards installed
Rear Bumper Guard installed

FUTURE = Fog Lights, arm rest, RS spoiler, cruise, black 17" wheels
wagoneer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 08:06 AM   #30
flint_mica_manual
 
Drives: S Sedan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsmitchell View Post
How about all the extra electronics needed for the hybrid system. Can a mechanic fix all that stuff if it gets gremlins? Not really. Mostly, the car is disposable. The cost to fix it may cost more than the car is worth. All these things are taken into account. Believe me, I was sceptical too, until I READ THE REPORT. It explains about why the numbers seem out of whack. "right-wing shill"?? How come, if they were trying to boost GM sales or something, they would list the xB as the least impact? Doesn't that strike anyone as odd. And the highest impact vehicles are the most COMPLEX, not necessarily the most expensive, or gas guzzling, or sipping for that matter. Come on folks, it's not black and white. The Earth is round, not flat like most people believed before proven otherwise. Sometimes things aren't as simple as they seem at first glance.
Your logic is faulty. How on earth can you say that an electric car is more complex than a gasoline engine? A Prius is basically an electric car with a gasoline engine bolted on to recharge the batteries. Electric drive trains are infinitively simpler than the alternative. An electrical motor is a shaft with some wire and magnets. That's it. Compare that to a gasoline motor with cams, gears, transmissions, rods, pistons, bearing, all kinds of stuff. . .and if that wasn't all, you have to keep all that stuff in time or it self destructs. PLUS, all those parts are wearing on each other constantly for the life of the vehicle.

Electric motors have no such problems, and they have more power -- more efficiently put to the wheels.

Look at the Honda Incite. The first one came out about 10 years ago. Where are all the internet reports about people being ticked off because the batteries died? Or because the drive train failed?

Period. That report you cite makes claims that are not verified because they don't even disclose their methodology. And you want someone to "prove" it wrong.

That's right. Toyota became the world's largest automotive company by investing in wasteful technologies. If only they could get a business model as good as Hummer's!

It's not like hybrid technology is old either. Just because it's new and novel in the automotive world, doesn't mean it's an unproven technology. Have you ever seen a diesel train? Around here they are big black Norfolk Southern monsters that haul thousands of Toyota Tundras out of Princeton. Believe it or not, those trains are ELECTRIC. The diesel engines are just there to run the generators that power those huge electric engines that pull all the weight.

Tho, I dunno, maybe you could find a study of how much more complicated and wasteful they are compared to a coal fired steam engine. We got rid of those in favor of these "new fangled" disposable diesel electric hybrid trains. Freaking luddite.

[rant mode off]

Happy Friday!

Last edited by flint_mica_manual; 05-04-2007 at 08:45 AM.
flint_mica_manual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 09:09 AM   #31
Yaris Revenge
GIGA...DRILL...BREAKER!!!
 
Yaris Revenge's Avatar
 
Drives: Lagann. ;P
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: My own little world.
Posts: 717
Quote:
Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris View Post
I see lots of extremley high mile Toyotas and Hondas, but have only seen a couple high mile American made cars I have NEVER seen an American car with 300,000+ miles, and cars are a hobby of mine.
Probably because the ones that do have that many miles have tripped the odometer 3 or 4 times. Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.

Quote:
Originally Posted by PetersRedYaris View Post
Maybe people hold onto their American cars beceause they are worth nothing with over 100,000 miles. No resale = keep it...
Very, very possible. But by conceding that people do hang on to American cars longer, doesn't that contradict your point about Japanese cars having higher overall mileage?

~YR
__________________
Be polite. Be professional. But have a plan to kill everyone you meet.
Yaris Revenge is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 01:35 PM   #32
static808
Engineer/Artist/House-Dad
 
static808's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Toyota Sienna XLE
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yaris Revenge View Post
Can you honestly say you see more old Japanese cars on the road than old American cars? Crazy talk.



~YR
in my neck of the woods, most of the older cars (all the way from the 70s) are definitely american, and most of them are ford and chevy pickups. i kinda figure that a higher number of old american cars would be on the road due to cultural changes. back then, an american would buy a ford or chevy and drive it until its wheels fell off. the influx of japanese cars really picked up heat when the automotive culture changed, and people in general started trading in their cars after 4-5 years. its really tough to generalize this topic though. from personal experience, most 10 year old cars i see are camrys and accords. however, if you get into the 15-20 year old car range, you start to see a bunch of cutlass supremes and le sabres. older than that, and you get into the ford pickup and classic vw bug range...

--B
__________________
His: 2006 Toyota Sienna XLE Arctic Frost Pearl, FC Package, 2007 Solara Nav unit, Spoiler, Running Boards & Auto-dimming rear mirror
Hers: 2007 Toyota Yaris LB Black Sand Pearl, Auto, Power Package, Side Airbags, VIP security, USDM center armrest, and accessory 7 spoke 15" alloy wheels
static808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 03:26 PM   #33
flint_mica_manual
 
Drives: S Sedan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by static808 View Post
i kinda figure that a higher number of old american cars would be on the road due to cultural changes. back then, an american would buy a ford or chevy and drive it until its wheels fell off.

--B
I see quite a few high millage imports around here. But I think your culture comment is valid tho. The reason the "wheels fell off" was due to age not mileage. Old American cars simply don't have that many miles on them, because a generation ago, people didn't commute 60 miles to work like they do today. It took me 5 years to drive 140,000 miles on top of the 91,000 that came with my old geo storm -- that's over 75 miles a day. Nobody, or very few anyway, did that 25 years ago. . .and certainly not in an old C-10 pickup. Most old American cars I've seen have under 100,000 miles. This talk of putting over 300,000 on some american car from the 80's is craziness -- unless it was a diesel owned by a mailman.

Anyone wants to dispute that, then I want a picture of an odometer. I've seen plenty of old American cars, and they all have low miles and eventually end up in demolition derbies.
flint_mica_manual is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 03:46 PM   #34
static808
Engineer/Artist/House-Dad
 
static808's Avatar
 
Drives: 2006 Toyota Sienna XLE
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: California
Posts: 419
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint_mica_manual View Post
I see quite a few high millage imports around here. But I think your culture comment is valid tho. The reason the "wheels fell off" was due to age not mileage. Old American cars simply don't have that many miles on them, because a generation ago, people didn't commute 60 miles to work like they do today. It took me 5 years to drive 140,000 miles on top of the 91,000 that came with my old geo storm -- that's over 75 miles a day. Nobody, or very few anyway, did that 25 years ago. . .and certainly not in an old C-10 pickup. Most old American cars I've seen have under 100,000 miles. This talk of putting over 300,000 on some american car from the 80's is craziness -- unless it was a diesel owned by a mailman.

Anyone wants to dispute that, then I want a picture of an odometer. I've seen plenty of old American cars, and they all have low miles and eventually end up in demolition derbies.
u know what? you brought up a very good point that i have failed to recognize. there is a difference between high mileage cars and older cars. most of the older american cars that i see on the road are driven by, of course, older americans!! im sure that they dont have the travel distances or commutes that younger people have nowadays. and i do agree that some 5 year old camrys/accords have much more mileage than 15 year old buicks and oldsmobiles. if you take a quick peek at the used auto ads, that should serve as evidence. good point...

--B
__________________
His: 2006 Toyota Sienna XLE Arctic Frost Pearl, FC Package, 2007 Solara Nav unit, Spoiler, Running Boards & Auto-dimming rear mirror
Hers: 2007 Toyota Yaris LB Black Sand Pearl, Auto, Power Package, Side Airbags, VIP security, USDM center armrest, and accessory 7 spoke 15" alloy wheels
static808 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2007, 04:35 PM   #35
nsmitchell
 
nsmitchell's Avatar
 
Drives: LB-Auto-PWR-ABS-Cruise-Springs
Join Date: Aug 2006
Location: Richmond, VA
Posts: 1,065
Quote:
Originally Posted by flint_mica_manual View Post
Your logic is faulty. How on earth can you say that an electric car is more complex than a gasoline engine? A Prius is basically an electric car with a gasoline engine bolted on to recharge the batteries. Electric drive trains are infinitively simpler than the alternative. An electrical motor is a shaft with some wire and magnets. That's it. Compare that to a gasoline motor with cams, gears, transmissions, rods, pistons, bearing, all kinds of stuff. . .and if that wasn't all, you have to keep all that stuff in time or it self destructs. PLUS, all those parts are wearing on each other constantly for the life of the vehicle.

Electric motors have no such problems, and they have more power -- more efficiently put to the wheels.

Look at the Honda Incite. The first one came out about 10 years ago. Where are all the internet reports about people being ticked off because the batteries died? Or because the drive train failed?

Period. That report you cite makes claims that are not verified because they don't even disclose their methodology. And you want someone to "prove" it wrong.

That's right. Toyota became the world's largest automotive company by investing in wasteful technologies. If only they could get a business model as good as Hummer's!

It's not like hybrid technology is old either. Just because it's new and novel in the automotive world, doesn't mean it's an unproven technology. Have you ever seen a diesel train? Around here they are big black Norfolk Southern monsters that haul thousands of Toyota Tundras out of Princeton. Believe it or not, those trains are ELECTRIC. The diesel engines are just there to run the generators that power those huge electric engines that pull all the weight.

Tho, I dunno, maybe you could find a study of how much more complicated and wasteful they are compared to a coal fired steam engine. We got rid of those in favor of these "new fangled" disposable diesel electric hybrid trains. Freaking luddite.

[rant mode off]

Happy Friday!
So you don't think the HYBRID SYSTEM is complex. To make the electric motor and gas motor play nice nice together IS complex. They have lots of sensors and onboard computers to make sure they run smoothly together and max out mileage. Also a Prius at $25K is being sold by Toyota at a loss of about $3K. So a Prius is actually a $28K car. Why? Because it is quite a bit more complex than a Yaris at $13K. Good Grief! More expensive components that make up the hybrid system. More expensive to make, more, more more, etc... More complex machines to build the more complex parts. Those machines need servicing, maintenance by more skilled people ...yadayadayada... This all adds up. Open your mind a little. Do you actually think someone would write a report just to poo poo hybrid cars? That is why I thought the report was fascinating. All of the arguments against the report are so weak. I'm not just talking about the XLS file, look at the PDF files as well.
__________________
Other car is a 2005 Mustang Convertible 4.0L V6 Manual - Legend Lime
Get YarAss in gear!
RIP - Casey Tatum
nsmitchell is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-06-2007, 05:11 PM   #36
flint_mica_manual
 
Drives: S Sedan
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Midwest
Posts: 65
Quote:
Originally Posted by nsmitchell View Post
Open your mind a little. Do you actually think someone would write a report just to poo poo hybrid cars? That is why I thought the report was fascinating. All of the arguments against the report are so weak. I'm not just talking about the XLS file, look at the PDF files as well.
This isn’t about having an open mind. It’s about critical thinking.

I have searched high and low to find info about this supposed story, and the only thing out there is the original study, right-wing sites linking to the original article (with cutesy latte-drinking-hollywood-loving-liberal-pinko-status-symbol comments from right wing filth to boot), and a bunch of forums talking about the original study. Where is the peer review? How did they get their data? Who PAID for this “study”? NOBODY freaking knows.

These are the hybrids that are or have been on the market for the last 20 years. Where is the data for these cars? WHY is the Toyota singled out in this “study”?

I, quite honestly, am done “debating” this nonsense. Nothing I can say will change your mind, and I’m not going to change my mind until I see something other than flame wars and ONE dubious “study” that is ridiculous in its conclusions.

1989 Audi 300 Duo
1994 Audi 80 Duo
1996 AC Propulsion tzero (primarily electric vehicle; 80 mile PbA, 300 mile Li-ion(2003) EV-mode)
1997 Toyota Prius (first commercially mass-produced and marketed hybrid automobile) Japanese market only
1997 Audi A4 Duo (Audi became the first manufacturer in Europe to mass produce a hybrid vehicle. Their hybrid vehicle is powered by a 66 kW 1.9-litre TDI-Engine and a 21 kW electric motor)
1999 Honda Insight 2000 model
[edit] 2000s
2000 Toyota Estima hybrid (Japanese market only)
2000 Toyota Prius US market
2002? Mazda Demio e-4WD (Japanese market only, used for traction assistance)
2002 New Flyer DE60LF (diesel-electric hybrid articulated bus)
2002 Dyna Diesel Hybrid (Japan only, Diesel Hybrid)
2002 Honda Civic Hybrid 2003 model
[edit] 2003
Renault Kangoo (plug-in hybrid electric vehicle)
Suzuki Twin
Toyota Alphard Hybrid
Toyota Prius (5 seat midsize) 2004 model year, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
[edit] 2004
Honda Accord Hybrid 2005 model
Ford Escape Hybrid 2005 model (released in late summer 2004)
General Motors city bus
[edit] 2005
Chevrolet Silverado/GMC Sierra Hybrid 2006 model, Mild hybrid
Honda Civic Hybrid 2006 model, second generation
Lexus RX 400h 2006 model year, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Mercury Mariner hybrid
Toyota Kluger/Highlander Hybrid 2006 model
[edit] 2006
Lexus GS 450h 2007 model, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Saturn VUE Green Line 2007 model, Mild hybrid
Toyota Camry Hybrid 2007 model, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive
Toyota Estima/Previa hybrid minivan, second generation Hybrid Synergy Drive (Japanese market only)
[edit] 2007
Nissan Altima Hybrid (limited sales)
Saturn Aura Green Line Hybrid (BAS) 2008 model, Mild hybrid
flint_mica_manual is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
NEWS: TOYOTA REVEALS ALL-NEW YARIS SEDAN AT 2006 LOS ANGELES AUTO SHOW VitzBoy General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 7 09-20-2023 07:50 AM
Consumer Reports not too pleased with Yaris Befuddled General Yaris / Vitz Discussion 132 02-28-2011 02:57 PM
2007 Yaris Pricing Info ! YarisBueller New YARIS Purchase Forum 104 06-24-2009 04:54 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 05:54 AM.




YarisWorld
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.