Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site
 

 


 
Go Back   Toyota Yaris Forums - Ultimate Yaris Enthusiast Site > Second Generation Toyota Yaris Main Rooms > General Yaris / Vitz Discussion
  The Tire Rack

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-30-2009, 12:29 AM   #1
fmicle
 
fmicle's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 685
The great intake debate!

Quote:
Originally Posted by camelll View Post
NST said that the damper is for NVH for the driver and to eliminate cabin noise!

Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise on a 12,000 dollar vehicle, show me anywhere else on the car the were concerned with cabin noise.
That's an easy one, come on.

From the mods I have installed so far, I think my cold air intake made the most noticeable difference. The acceleration is much better. So, why don't they have a stock CAI? Because it makes the car louder!!!

So, yes, I am pretty sure the engineers at Toyota are more concerned about cabin noise in a car like the Yaris than about performance!
fmicle is offline  
Old 09-30-2009, 09:23 AM   #2
camelll
 
Drives: 07 sedan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Home
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by Astroman View Post
A great post but... what does the harmonic balancer and a failed water pump after a month have to do with one another? The most likely culprit is a defective water pump or improper installation.
NST came on here claiming that there solid pulley's will not or could not cause any damage so I posted in response. Don't get me wrong, I don't think his crank pulley caused his water pump failure. I believe I said that earlier. I think it is either a case of defective part or overtightened belt.

Again I am not bagging on NST's product, many people here have there pulley's with no ill effects, but make no mistake that there is a chance of damage when changing your crank pulley to a solid one, which NST claims there pulley cannot damage our cars when if fact it is very possible.

Mike if it can be determined that one of your crank pulley's caused some form of damage, what ever it is, how minor or how big, would you and NST be willing to warranty the part or parts that were determined to be damaged because of the pulley?

There are laws to cover buyers of aftermarket parts. But bearing experts can tell by looking at the bearings, shafts or journals that the bearings were riding on, if it was damaged due to harmonic vibrations. You better believe Toyota is gonna have someone look at those parts if your motor blows, bearings fail or seals are breaking and leaking and you try to take it in with an aftermarket pulley and claim it under warranty. Bearings are fairly easy to diagnose as to why they fail. Resonance is bad this is why Toyota dampens their crank pulley's. Its not all about the bearings though, these vibrations can cause crankshaft failure as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
That's an easy one, come on.

From the mods I have installed so far, I think my cold air intake made the most noticeable difference. The acceleration is much better. So, why don't they have a stock CAI? Because it makes the car louder!!!

So, yes, I am pretty sure the engineers at Toyota are more concerned about cabin noise in a car like the Yaris than about performance!
You are absolutely wrong. Show me a dyno before the cold air intake and after! Your but dyno is lying to you. You maybe gained 2 hp from your cold air intake, not 12 like they claim.

And as far as the CAI not coming stock, this is what is the easy one, its a little thing called emissions, your CAI is not carb legal nor will it pass emissions testing. So no Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise when they put their low breathing smog box on. Granted the stock intake box does limit noise that is not the main reason they make it the way they do.
camelll is offline  
Old 09-30-2009, 02:04 PM   #3
supmet
Banned
 
Drives: 2007 4 Door Yaris
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: Southern California
Posts: 1,357
Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
That's an easy one, come on.

From the mods I have installed so far, I think my cold air intake made the most noticeable difference. The acceleration is much better. So, why don't they have a stock CAI? Because it makes the car louder!!!

So, yes, I am pretty sure the engineers at Toyota are more concerned about cabin noise in a car like the Yaris than about performance!
A)Pulleys don't need regular changing like air filters, and changing a CAI filter means removing a headlight- turning a 5 minute chore into a multiple hour chore.
B) as camellll pointed out, you can't pass smog with a CAI.
C) TRD offers a CAI, where's the TRD pulleys?

we skipped apples and oranges, and went straight to apples and orangutans.
supmet is offline  
Old 09-30-2009, 02:53 PM   #4
cali yaris
ULTIMATE
 
cali yaris's Avatar
 
Drives: 07 Yaris Turbo
Join Date: May 2007
Location: Canoga Park, CA
Posts: 14,859
Send a message via AIM to cali yaris
^
about B. above -- This is not 100% correct.

Many smog stations will allow a CAI if the car still passes the sniff test, which a Yaris will with a CAI properly installed. How picky they are about the visual inspection differs from place to place.
__________________
Micro Image forums, online store and shop are now closed. It was a great eight year run, but it was time to focus on other things. I'm still selling parts on eBay under micro*image seller ID and customers can still make requests for anything specific.
cali yaris is offline  
Old 09-30-2009, 03:50 PM   #5
ddongbap
Banned
 
Drives: yw calls me douche and racist.
Join Date: Aug 2007
Location: hay
Posts: 2,183
Quote:
Originally Posted by cali yaris View Post
^
about B. above -- This is not 100% correct.

Many smog stations will allow a CAI if the car still passes the sniff test, which a Yaris will with a CAI properly installed. How picky they are about the visual inspection differs from place to place.
Or how much cash you have... =]
ddongbap is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 02:23 AM   #6
fmicle
 
fmicle's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 685
Quote:
Originally Posted by camelll View Post
You are absolutely wrong. Show me a dyno before the cold air intake and after! Your but dyno is lying to you. You maybe gained 2 hp from your cold air intake, not 12 like they claim.

And as far as the CAI not coming stock, this is what is the easy one, its a little thing called emissions, your CAI is not carb legal nor will it pass emissions testing. So no Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise when they put their low breathing smog box on. Granted the stock intake box does limit noise that is not the main reason they make it the way they do.
No, my friend, it is you, who is wrong here. You see, there are plenty of perfectly CARB legal CAI's out there, just not for the Yaris. And I am pretty sure it is just a matter of time and beaurocracy to get exemptions for some CAI's that work on the Yaris. Check out the CARB website and you'll see how long the list of CARB legal CAI's is.

That should take care of the "facts".

Now, regarding the claim about HP gain, I never gave any numbers, never said the CAI gave me 12 HP, but at least the one that I bought came with a dyno chart, which shows the improvement. If you do a little research on CAI's you will quickly learn that the reason they are not standard is because of noise and vibrations standards that manufacturers adhere to.

And since you asked for the dyno, here they are:

fmicle is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 02:30 AM   #7
fmicle
 
fmicle's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 685
Quote:
Originally Posted by supmet View Post
B) as camellll pointed out, you can't pass smog with a CAI.
Of course you can, guys, come on, do your homework before making such statements, there are hundreds of CAI's out there that are legal and pass smog and everything, just none for the Yaris yet. I don't know what it takes to get an executive order, but I would imagine some CAI manufacturers should be working on that.

Also, you can pass the smog test with a modified car. Do some research on "smog referee" and you will see what I am talking about.
fmicle is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 03:59 AM   #8
mikenacarato
SIPNDEW
 
mikenacarato's Avatar
 
Drives: 15 STI
Join Date: Oct 2008
Location: Brentwood, TN
Posts: 2,281
Send a message via AIM to mikenacarato
just because your car has an intake does not mean you wont pass emissions. on obdII cars as long as your CEL is not on and there are no pending codes and your driving cycle has been done, you will pass. some places do check for cats though.
mikenacarato is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 04:10 AM   #9
Kioshi
Heart Up! Vitz
 
Kioshi's Avatar
 
Drives: トヨタ Vitz
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Fremont, CA
Posts: 2,582
I'd be surprised all the people here with custom catbacks and running into problems passing emissions in California rather than a CAI (simple fix, remove before smog check and put back on later)....
Kioshi is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 07:27 AM   #10
camelll
 
Drives: 07 sedan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Home
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
No, my friend, it is you, who is wrong here. You see, there are plenty of perfectly CARB legal CAI's out there, just not for the Yaris. And I am pretty sure it is just a matter of time and beaurocracy to get exemptions for some CAI's that work on the Yaris. Check out the CARB website and you'll see how long the list of CARB legal CAI's is.

That should take care of the "facts".
They do have a good list of CARB legal CAI's but they also have a lot that are not listed, such as the Yaris. So it is hit or miss. If they are listed on there then I can almost assure you they are no better than the stock air box. For others who want to view what he is talking about CLICK ME. You can believe what ever you want. I think you should read post 57 again, here is a excerpt from it.

"And as far as the CAI not coming stock, this is what is the easy one, its a little thing called emissions, your CAI is not carb legal nor will it pass emissions testing. So no Toyota was not thinking about cabin noise when they put their low breathing smog box on. Granted the stock intake box does limit noise that is not the main reason they make it the way they do."

Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
Now, regarding the claim about HP gain, I never gave any numbers, never said the CAI gave me 12 HP, but at least the one that I bought came with a dyno chart, which shows the improvement. If you do a little research on CAI's you will quickly learn that the reason they are not standard is because of noise and vibrations standards that manufacturers adhere to.
I asked for a dyno BEFORE and AFTER, and you bring a manufacturer claim. doubtful you are getting a 5-6 percent hp increase from a CAI with 70 hp stock dyno. Again dyno YOUR car BEFORE and AFTER then post those results.

Does carb deal with noise and vibration levels? Also how can we have any CARB legal CAI's since they all almost raise the noise level inside and outside the car. Please post some links up so I can read what you are talking about? There is almost no sound deadening in our cars, as a matter of fact I think the only sound deadening material they put in our cars they had to remove because it could possibly cause a fire.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
Of course you can, guys, come on, do your homework before making such statements, there are hundreds of CAI's out there that are legal and pass smog and everything, just none for the Yaris yet. I don't know what it takes to get an executive order, but I would imagine some CAI manufacturers should be working on that.
It has to do with emissions. Not noise and vibration as you believe. Noise reduction is a secondary benefit of the stock airbox. The car has been out since 2006 in the US. They already have 08's listed on the carb website for other vehicle manufacturers and some 09's.

Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
Also, you can pass the smog test with a modified car. Do some research on "smog referee" and you will see what I am talking about.
No need to search smog referee, here is the smog check manual from the BAR, which had a link right on the CARB website.

http://www.bar.ca.gov/80_BARResource...08-09%20V3.pdf

Here is a good read on intakes.
http://articles.sromagazine.com/diff...f-air-intakes/

Last edited by tk-421; 10-06-2009 at 02:28 PM. Reason: no longer relevant
camelll is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 12:48 PM   #11
fmicle
 
fmicle's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 685
Quote:
Originally Posted by camelll View Post
It has to do with emissions. Not noise and vibration as you believe. Noise reduction is a secondary benefit of the stock airbox.

Here is a good read on intakes.
http://articles.sromagazine.com/diff...f-air-intakes/
Here is the primary advantage of a stock intake, as listed in the link you provided above:

Advantages
Helps keeps the engine quiet.

It's not what "I believe", it's what the experts say, and I like to read.

fmicle is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 12:58 PM   #12
camelll
 
Drives: 07 sedan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Home
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
Here is the primary advantage of a stock intake, as listed in the link you provided above:

Advantages
Helps keeps the engine quiet.

It's not what "I believe", it's what the experts say, and I like to read.

Out of context, that is an advantage, you like to read but take away what you want out of reading. Read the paragraph above!

"Stock Air Box.
With fuel injected vehicles you usually can’t even see it. It’s usually enclosed plastic. The vehicle designers usually make the stock air box draw cold air from outside the vehicle usually from the fender well. The air flow is restricted for emission purposes."

Again the noise is a secondary advantage which I have stated before but noise is not the reason they make intakes the way they do. Nice try though. Tell me what restrictions do motor companies have that they have to follow except safety and emissions? Answer some of my other questions why you are at it too!
camelll is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:02 PM   #13
camelll
 
Drives: 07 sedan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Home
Posts: 108
Try reading a little farther down too!
"Legal Issues
Adding an intake system to your vehicle may make it illegal for road use. Because you are altering the engines emissions system the government wants to make sure that it does not create more pollutants than it should. California has the strictest laws pertaining to this so the better manufacturers will get a CARB # for the intake system. CARB means California Air Resource Board. Once an intake has been approved by CARB the intake system will require a sticker to be placed on a visible location on the intake system. It will have some numbers on the sticker called an “Executive Order Number”. This can be shown to smog technicians or police or CHP / State Troopers. Since California has the strictest emissions policy the intake will then be 50 state legal.

This is the Air Resource Lookup webpage for aftermarket parts:
http://www.arb.ca.gov/msprog/aftermk...es/amquery.php

Why Spend $200 vs. $40 for an intake?
Here is the reason why. The $200 intake system was probably designed and created by the company selling it. This means they Dyno tested different lengths and designs to try to gain the most horsepower for each vehicle. They then applied for a CARB number for this intake. When ordering your intake make sure it’s 50 state CARB legal.

The $40 intake system is just some company in the US importing over a generic design or copied intake system from China. These will not have a CARB number and the filters will usually fall apart within 6 months.

You might want to buy a cheap intake because you don’t car about CARB and you probably won’t get caught. If you do get caught, here is the scenario.

Police officer pulls you over. Asks you to pop your hood. They check out the intake and ask for the CARB number. There is none. So what happens? He gives you a fix it ticket to be signed off by the State Ref only. This ticket is charged by the city from $10-$100.

You then have to put on your stock air box (if you still have it), and then make an appointment with the State Referee. This cost $75 for them to inspect your car. If you have any other modifications they’ll find them, anything wrong they’ll find it and you’ll fail. These guys are strict.

Maybe you passed, maybe you didn’t? If you didn’t you have to go back to the State Ref until you do pass. If you did pass then they’ll sign off your ticket.

Now you have to go to court. You have to go show the judge that you got your ticket signed off. He’ll chuckle at the case, but you’ve already spent 2 days taking care of this ticket. So do some research before you buy and try to buy a 50 State CARB Legal intake for your car. Some good brands to look into are AEM, Injen, K&N, True Flow, and Weapon-R.
http://www.aempower.com
http://www.injen.com
http://www.knfilters.com
http://www.weapon-r.com

You can find intakes to purchase at our online store at

http://www.sroperformance.com/air-intakes-html.html

Last edited by tk-421; 10-06-2009 at 02:29 PM. Reason: no longer relevant
camelll is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:05 PM   #14
fmicle
 
fmicle's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 685
Some more food for thought: if emissions are that important, how come my friend's 1984 carburetor Honda Civic is "legal"? Everytime he starts it, he has to wait for the smoke cloud to clear before he drives away...

What I'm trying to say here is that even if (and it's a big if) the smog numbers are slightly worse with a CAI, I bet they are still well within the range they should be for this car.

I have absolutely no doubts that my car would pass the smog test itself, if nobody opened the hood... I may in fact go get a smog test for the heck of it...

Did anyone do a smog check with a CAI by any chance and can chime in?
fmicle is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:15 PM   #15
camelll
 
Drives: 07 sedan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Home
Posts: 108
Quote:
Originally Posted by fmicle View Post
Some more food for thought: if emissions are that important, how come my friend's 1984 carburetor Honda Civic is "legal"? Everytime he starts it, he has to wait for the smoke cloud to clear before he drives away...

What I'm trying to say here is that even if (and it's a big if) the smog numbers are slightly worse with a CAI, I bet they are still well within the range they should be for this car.

I have absolutely no doubts that my car would pass the smog test itself, if nobody opened the hood... I may in fact go get a smog test for the heck of it...

Did anyone do a smog check with a CAI by any chance and can chime in?
You can believe what you want, but the hard truth about this is that stock intakes are designed for emissions control. I have no idea when they started carb in california, he may be grandfathered in.
camelll is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:24 PM   #16
camelll
 
Drives: 07 sedan
Join Date: Jun 2007
Location: Home
Posts: 108
fmicle by all means get your car tested. You will not pass visual because you don't have a carb number on your intake. You may pass smog but you will still not pass because of the visual.

Do you have a SRI or a CAI?
camelll is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:29 PM   #17
fmicle
 
fmicle's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 685
I am not debating whether stock intake provides better emissions, that's obvious, but manufacturers don't design parts with one goal in mind only. They are aiming for many things with one design: emissions, noise, vibrations, safety, reliability, easy access/replacement, compatibility among different models etc. I don't believe the main factor for better emissions is the air intake, I believe it's the ECU, the fuel mixture, air to fuel ratio, not to mention the fuel itself. That's why gas in California is most expensive in the US, because it's higher grade, meant to produce less smog - no matter what car you put it in.

Usually smog numbers are relative, parts per million or whatever measuring units they use. More air, means more fuel being burnt, but the ratio of exhaust gases will be the same, as a percentage of the whole. Of course in absolute numbers with the stock intake it will be less, because if you pump in less air, you burn less fuel, so there is less exhaust. But I believe the smog measures concentration of gases in the exhaust and not the absolute number of SO2, CO2, CO and whatever other molecules produced.
fmicle is offline  
Old 10-06-2009, 01:42 PM   #18
fmicle
 
fmicle's Avatar
 
Drives: 2007 Yaris LB
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: San Jose, CA, USA
Posts: 685
Quote:
Originally Posted by camelll View Post
fmicle by all means get your car tested. You will not pass visual because you don't have a carb number on your intake. You may pass smog but you will still not pass because of the visual.

Do you have a SRI or a CAI?
I know I won't pass for now, but I think it's just a matter of time until a manufacturer obtains an executive order for a CAI. What I'm trying to say here is that the reason I wouldn't pass is beaurocracy related and not emissions related. But at the end of the day, it's just a guess

I have an AEM CAI.

I just searched the CARB database and found that an AEM CAI for a 1990 Honda Civic is legal and it looks just like mine, same filter, the pipe seems to be a little longer. So what's the difference in emissions?

I believe thata there are more Civics out there than Yarii and it made sense from a business perspective for AEM to go through the certification process.

Here, from the CARB website, for 92-96 Honda Prelude:
Factor air cleaner and intake air tubing is removed and replaced with an open element style filter. Aluminum tubing is used between the air filter and the throttle body.

That's exactly what I have. Legal for the Prelude, illegal for Yaris. I could probably sue for discrimination if I ever get a ticket
fmicle is offline  
Closed Thread

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
DIY: Intake Installation redyaris DIY / Maintenance / Service 53 08-23-2014 05:34 AM
MY new PRM Intake... marcus Performance Modifications 27 05-03-2009 11:04 PM
Bomz Ebay Intake - Partial Review Split Performance Modifications 11 11-19-2008 02:12 AM
Intake Systems Decision Maker.. Blenjar Performance Modifications 25 09-15-2007 10:07 PM


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 04:40 AM.




YarisWorld
Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.