Fuel Prices

[chrisj]

This is a new thread started on fuel prices and what is fair/unfair/good/bad.

My problem with fuel prices is how weather or breakdowns in a refinery or an oil spill may drastically affect pricing on any given day. I have been driving since 1972 and I don't remember this kind of thing happening until just a few years ago. Pricing was fairly stable for years until the Oil Crisis in 1973 (I think). Even 3 years later though, I was paying 76 cents (yes, that's right) a gallon for gas. I was paying 99 cents in 1991, so in 15 years the price only went up 23 cents. This is fact, because I lived it. We can now see gas go up 23 cents in a day.

I think $2.50 a gallon is too much, for sure. I would like to know exactly what the cost of producing a gallon of gasoline is, then I could either feel better about it or get more upset. I would say that I would get more upset if I found out what it costs to refine.

The entire reason for trading to a Yaris from our trusty 1998 Avalon was fuel economy (also, the Yaris just looks better). I did lots of research before settling on the Yaris because I know that gas prices will be higher again, and one day they will stay higher. I am just heading off the inevitable.

It costs just about 1/2 to fill up the new car than it did the old one. Of course the tank is smaller, but we get just about the same amount of miles from a tank. We have already figured that in gas savings alone, if we keep the Yaris as long as we kept the Avalon, the Yaris will basically be free, due to gas savings alone. So, while I hate $2.50 a gallon gas, we all have to pay it, and it only makes sense to get a car that gets the very best fuel economy.

[chrisj]

Oops. This thread probably should have been in the Fuel Economy forum. :/

[DebbyM46227]

This is telling my age but I remember when I got my first car (a used 1969 Cougar) I paid 25 cents a gallon! The gas stations by the interstate had gas wars.

I really think now it's supply/demand. Everyone in China now drives a car where they used to ride bikes.

[teddy]

2.50 a gallon is super cheap compared to our Canadian prices. I understand even more so compared to what they pay over in Europe.

On my way to work this morning I passed a gas station at 0.999 per Litre, which according to google is equivalent to approx $3.67 USD/gallon.

Back in the summer of 2008, only a couple months after we got our Yaris I remember buying gas at $1.38 per Litre (about 5.07 USD/gallon). Thankfully it didn't stay that high for long, it gradually lowered over a few months.

[why?]

A huge chunk of the final gas cost we pay is taxes. The average state gas tax is around 27.2 cents a gallon, and the federal gas tax sits at 18.4 cents a gallon.

And this is a great article on how much taxes oil companies pay in general. So basically oil companies pay more money in taxes than what they earn in profits each year.

Yup, the governments and its elected leaders are thieves and thugs.

[chrisj]

Speaking of Canada, back in 2001 my wife and I went on vacation to Nova Scotia. I had rented a car in Portland, Maine and took it over on a ferry, and I was amazed at how cheap the price of gas was! Of course that was PER LITER. My excitement didn't last long. lol

[chrisj]

Right after gas hit nearly $4 a gallon a couple of years ago, it took a nose-dive to about $1.50 a gallon, slowly easing upward to where it remains today. Anyone remember paying that buck and a half?

[why?]

From the other thread

Originally Posted by Kal-El

I agree with you on some points. It is ridiculous that the government pulls in more money on oil than those that do all the work. However, the other way to look at it is that gas taxes [supposedly] go to roads/bridges which works out nicely because it's the road users that are paying for such work more than those who for whatever reason don't drive and therefore don't pay this extra tax.

I certainly don't want gas above $3 a gallon for the sake of our economy. $4/ gallon devastates it. However, I still have to say that $2.50/gal is a very fair price for fuel. Of course it used to be cheaper but lets not ignore inflation. Honestly, you can't really expect gas to be $1.50/gal in 2010, do you? What was $1.50 in 1990, isn't $1.50 now. The first major problem with that is that everyone owns massive gas hogs and no fuel alternatives are ever explored. Am I an environmentalist? Nope. But I appreciate a sensible balance. Make anything cheap as dirt, and it gets severely wasted. I think $2.50 is a point when people are still conservative but it's not killing budgets or the economy. People are buying sensible cars although you still see a return to SUV's which suggest that yes, it's still inexpensive.

Anyway, I think we need a new thread. This is way off topic.

Gas taxes go to our roads? You mean the ones that are falling apart, and the bridges that are literally falling down now?

Yea, maybe at one point that was true, but then again, at one point someone believed money collected for social security would not be stolen by congress, and look how well that worked.

Inflation is almost non existant. A table for inflation since 1913. And an inflation calculator.

Even during the late '90's gas was still 99 cents a gallon. In fact, using the above calculator, just using inflation, gas would have to have been 99 cents a gallon in 1980 for it to have been inflation that makes it $2.50 a gallon now.

Gas should be inexpensive because we have plenty of it, and it isn't going to run out any time soon. It is expensive because of greedy governmental types who think they can tax the heck out of anything, and they know they have people like you around who will say it is ok, because it is what we "should" be paying for gas.

As I noted before, oil companies pay more in taxes then they earn each year in profits. So that makes our gas prices at least twice as much as they should be.

Kinda sickening, huh?

[PhotoDu.de]

Originally Posted by why?

It is expensive because of greedy governmental types who think they can tax the heck out of anything, and they know they have people like you around who will say it is ok, because it is what we "should" be paying for gas.

How is it the government fault that the price of gasoline fluctuates when the tax rate stays the same? You were paying the same amount of tax (minus sales tax) when gas was a $1.50 versus now.
How is it greedy to want to fund the government? If tax money were being embezzled or misappropriated, I would agree with you. If they are going to pay for the programs written into the law, then we are really talking about what should be the responsibility of government.

[Altitude]

Originally Posted by PhotoDu.de

How is it the government fault that the price of gasoline fluctuates when the tax rate stays the same? You were paying the same amount of tax (minus sales tax) when gas was a $1.50 versus now.
How is it greedy to want to fund the government? If tax money were being embezzled or misappropriated, I would agree with you. If they are going to pay for the programs written into the law, then we are really talking about what should be the responsibility of government.

For some, the government is always the problem.

[why?]

Originally Posted by PhotoDu.de

How is it the government fault that the price of gasoline fluctuates when the tax rate stays the same? You were paying the same amount of tax (minus sales tax) when gas was a $1.50 versus now.
How is it greedy to want to fund the government? If tax money were being embezzled or misappropriated, I would agree with you. If they are going to pay for the programs written into the law, then we are really talking about what should be the responsibility of government.

The tax rates have not stayed the same. Just the latest in literally thousands of gas tax changes through the years.

It is greedy to want to steal money and then use it for whatever they want to. And that is what they are doing at this point, just stealing more and more of our hard earned money.

You can't possibly think it is ok to waste trillions of dollars doing absolutely nothing.

And then there is the fact that at some mythical time gas taxes were suppose to only go for infrastructure maintenance and improvements, but that changed decades ago. Now they use the money for whatever suits their fancy.

Governments and bureaucracies are always innately evil. The more you allow them to do, the more evil they get.

[PhotoDu.de]

Originally Posted by why?

The tax rates have not stayed the same. Just the latest in literally thousands of gas tax changes through the years.

It is greedy to want to steal money and then use it for whatever they want to. And that is what they are doing at this point, just stealing more and more of our hard earned money.

You can't possibly think it is ok to waste trillions of dollars doing absolutely nothing.

And then there is the fact that at some mythical time gas taxes were suppose to only go for infrastructure maintenance and improvements, but that changed decades ago. Now they use the money for whatever suits their fancy.

Governments and bureaucracies are always innately evil. The more you allow them to do, the more evil they get.

That article is just about one tax increase just in California.

The government does use the money for something, not nothing. They can't use it for whatever suits their fancy, only what the law allows them to.

In my humbled opinion, you are being very paranoid.

Originally Posted by Altitude

For some, the government is always the problem.

If the government is always a problem move to a country without one, like Somalia.

[STC]

Originally Posted by Altitude

For some, the government is always the problem.

Not government, but a Corporatocracy... Public (government) and Private (corporations) sleeping together in a technocratic business association...

Cheers!

[Altitude]

Originally Posted by why?

Governments and bureaucracies are always innately evil. The more you allow them to do, the more evil they get.

The same can be said of corporations no? Though you should really take it a step further and blame human greed and corruption since it is the people that comprise the governments and corporations that do these evil deeds, right?

[47_MasoN_47]

Power = Corruption.

Be it government (all types), corporations, or management at McDonalds. Anyone with power will, at some point, take part in some corrupting activity.

Gas is around $2.65/gal here.

[PhotoDu.de]

Originally Posted by STC

Not government, but a Corporatocracy... Public (government) and Private (corporations) sleeping together in a technocratic business association...

Couldn't agree more.

Originally Posted by 47_MasoN_47

Power = Corruption.

Be it government (all types), corporations, or management at McDonalds. Anyone with power will, at some point, take part in some corrupting activity.

There are some altruist out there but not many. Your statement is generally true which is why all developed countries have checks on their powers.

[why?]

Originally Posted by Altitude

The same can be said of corporations no? Though you should really take it a step further and blame human greed and corruption since it is the people that comprise the governments and corporations that do these evil deeds, right?

There is a huge difference between governments and corporations. You can choose not to spend your money with a certain corporation. If you choose not to pay your taxes, you go to jail.

You give people that type of power, and they must be watched over like a hawk, or you get the quagmire of waste and bribes and corruption that we currently see.

Originally Posted by PhotoDu.de

That article is just about one tax increase just in California.

The government does use the money for something, not nothing. They can't use it for whatever suits their fancy, only what the law allows them to.

In my humbled opinion, you are being very paranoid.

If the government is always a problem move to a country without one, like Somalia.

This is just one of many thousands. Look at the date of the article. It just proves that gas taxes are rising all the time, just google it and you will see.

And all the governmental types have to do is write the law to be able to use the money for anything, they know they can do it, because they voted for something last week to give someone else a ton of money to use however they want.

Anarchy is suicide. If people were perfect, anarchy would absolutely be the perfect form of government. Since they are not, government is required to protect the people.

[PhotoDu.de]

Yes, taxes change. They are not the main reason for the volatility in the price of gas.

If you think government is ran ineffectively then vote for an effective government, or revolt.

And sorry if the Somalia bit was a little hyperbolic.