Yaris sales hit new low...

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by matti

I can say that I don't care if the Yaris has an old "non-tech" engine and transmission. I don't care if the technology is 30 years old: if it works and is proven to be durable, that's all I care about. I could not care less about having a "more modern" drivetrain if it would cost me more.

However, the 6-speed manual would be worth it to me if = +++ MPG and the +++ MPG paid for the increased cost by the 100k mile mark. If the increased cost wasn't paid for until the 150k mile mark, better 'manners' might still make the 6-speed manual worth the cost.

[kimona]

Originally Posted by matti

I can say that I don't care if the Yaris has an old "non-tech" engine and transmission. I don't care if the technology is 30 years old: if it works and is proven to be durable, that's all I care about. I could not care less about having a "more modern" drivetrain if it would cost me more.

I think the current 1.5L and 4-speed automatic transmission are brilliant! I wouldn't change a thing.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

However, the 6-speed manual would be worth it to me if = +++ MPG and the +++ MPG paid for the increased cost by the 100k mile mark. If the increased cost wasn't paid for until the 150k mile mark, better 'manners' might still make the 6-speed manual worth the cost.

at 15,000 miles/yr and $3.70/gallon, a 40 mpg car would save $112/yr over a 37 mpg car.

id guess that 6 speed version would be at least $1k higher, so you'd be looking at a good decade to recoup the costs.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

However, the 6-speed manual would be worth it to me if = +++ MPG and the +++ MPG paid for the increased cost by the 100k mile mark. If the increased cost wasn't paid for until the 150k mile mark, better 'manners' might still make the 6-speed manual worth the cost.

Actually as long as the highest gear ratio (ie 4th in a four speed, 6th in a six speed) are the same so will the mileage be. And because you are winding through the gears (and burning gas as you do so) the more speeds the transmission has the worse the mpg.

Thus the most efficient transmission is a three speed NOT a six speed.

Get it?

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Actually as long as the highest gear ratio (ie 4th in a four speed, 6th in a six speed) are the same so will the mileage be. And because you are winding through the gears (and burning gas as you do so) the more speeds the transmission has the worse the mpg.

Thus the most efficient transmission is a three speed NOT a six speed.

Get it?

I was going by a general assumption that the set up on a 6-speed vs a 5-speed (on average) would allow the 6-speed to be at a lower rpm (and likely higher MPG) than the 5-speed at the same MPH.

If one wound through the gears ALWAYS at a low rpm (trying to get to 5th or 6th as quickly as possible without 'bogging'), wouldn't the diminished efficiency of more gears to 'row'/'wind' through be minimal, or almost non existent ?

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by roxy1

at 15,000 miles/yr and $3.70/gallon, a 40 mpg car would save $112/yr over a 37 mpg car.

id guess that 6 speed version would be at least $1k higher, so you'd be looking at a good decade to recoup the costs.

Yeah, but I've averaged about 2.5 x the 15,000 per year with my Yaris, accelerating the break even point had a 6-speed been available .

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

I was going by a general assumption that the set up on a 6-speed vs a 5-speed (on average) would allow the 6-speed to be at a lower rpm (and likely higher MPG) than the 5-speed at the same MPH.

If one wound through the gears ALWAYS at a low rpm (trying to get to 5th or 6th as quickly as possible without 'bogging'), wouldn't the diminished efficiency of more gears to 'row'/'wind' through be minimal, or almost non existent ?

In most six speed transmissions the highest speed is equal to or lower than the comparable highest speed in a five speed, four speed etc.

It is unusual for it to be higher which would result in lower rpms.

If you accelerated the engine to the same rpm in a six, five, and four speed transmission before shifting up you would have slightly less mpg the more speeds you shifted through. More speeds does NOT mean more mpg. The eight speed autos Chrysler and others have come out with are just pulling the wool over the eyes of the unwary consumer.

However as you suggest the difference might not be much or even noticeable in practical experience.

And a three speed transmission would not be as adaptable to varying road conditions as a six, five, or even four speed.

HOWEVER!

Manufacturers are guilty of misleading the public in many things. All the time they were increasing the size, weight, and displacement of cars like the Corolla they said "And the mileage is improved!"

Not so.

My sister in law had something like an 85 Camry that got 38 mpg around town while my wifes 05 Camry gets 22.

If you have your heart set on a six speed (soon to be SEVEN speed!) before purchasing get a print out of the final drive ratio of each speed and compare it to the five speed. In many case there IS no five speed to compare it to!

BUT you can always SKIP gears as I did on my motorcycles when going cross country or commuting to work. I shifted my ST1100 and 1300 1-3-5.

[Superfly]

The lack of models on the sale floor has to be the first killer. No one is going to buy the Yaris if it is not there. Then all the competitors offer incentives, slightly lower MSRPs and more modern "conveniences". Plus Toyota has so many incentives for the Prius C and the Corolla. The Yaris is really in a rough spot.

However, the biggest problem probably deals with the people most likely to buy the Yaris. We all want cheap, lightweight fuel-sipping strippers that will last 1 bagillion miles without incident. I can imagine it is difficult for TMC to push for more research and development investments if they know most US Yaris buyers are going to be around once for the initial purchase and then ten years later for a newer model. Shoot, most of us don't even visit the dealer for anything more than the oil changes. Realistically, I just don't see a simple solution for improving Yaris numbers which sucks because it is simply a sweet ride.

[Superfly]

Originally Posted by kimona

I think the current 1.5L and 4-speed automatic transmission are brilliant! I wouldn't change a thing.

I agree. I appreciate the simplicity of the 4-speed and the 1.5L but I would kill for some more torque. Not horsepower, but torque.

[juicyjosh]

Guys and gals, we all realize the 2014 Yaris is a 2005 Yaris, which is a 2007 Daihatsu Charade..., right?

Would YOU buy a 2005 100-hp FWD car... TODAY IN 2014?

I know I wouldn't.

There's also a minimal commission payout to Toyota sales reps for selling the Yaris, so the sales reps aren't going to be pushing these cars to begin with. The point is significant: Salespeople aren't going to spend 4 hours to trying to convince someone to buy a cheaply-made car hoping to make $1xx.00 commission when they can much more easily sell a "nicer" Camry or Corolla and make $3xx.00.

But Toyota's milking the 2005 Yaris (a.k.a. 2007 Daihatsu Charade) for all it's worth. The 2012-on Yaris has an exterior and interior refresh, but it's only a facelift. Like everything else in life, what's inside is more important. In the case of the Yaris, the engine, drivetrain, suspension are all circa 2005. (So the 2012 SE has disks in the rear; There's so little weight back there that there's no significant performance benefit.) However for 2012, Toyota remapped the ecu for "softer" throttle response to get an extra 1 mpg City and Highway for the MT. Thanks Toyota for completing the initially only partially botched castration of what little cojones this car ever had to begin with.

I leased the car because of a unique situation I was in at the time where I needed something cheap with Toyota reliability, and I had no time to be working on cars. And I got a 5-speed fwiw. At least it was cheaper than the auto, and I'm averaging 29 mpg on 87 octane, which isn't bad, though could be better for a 2300-lb. car with a very optimistic 106-hp rating.

Hopefully this helps ppl to not lose any sleep over this car's demise.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by bronsin

Manufacturers are guilty of misleading the public in many things. All the time they were increasing the size, weight, and displacement of cars like the Corolla they said "And the mileage is improved!"

Not so.

My sister in law had something like an 85 Camry that got 38 mpg around town while my wifes 05 Camry gets 22.

.

that's because up until 10 years ago, manufacturers cared little about improving economy. it was all about making the car bigger, more comfortable, and quieter. that 85 camry had a big advantage in weight and was also infinitely less safe. that 85 camry got a rating of 23/29 (and 24/31 for the manual)

now that efficiency is being demaded from all sides, cars are getting bigger and more efficient. the 2014 camry (non hybrid) is close to 1000 lbs heavier, much larger, and far safer than that 85 camry. it is rated at 25/35 and I can get 39-40 in that car all day long.

[roxy1]

Originally Posted by juicyjosh

Guys and gals, we all realize the 2014 Yaris is a 2005 Yaris, which is a 2007 Daihatsu Charade..., right?

Would YOU buy a 2005 100-hp FWD car... TODAY IN 2014?
.

I owned an 07 yaris and now a 14 yaris. the 14 is a little longer, has different sheet metal, a different interior, is definitely quieter, has a better ride, gets a little better mileage, and is safer. it is definitely a different generation yaris. so no, a 2014 yaris is not a 2005 yaris.

the 2007 charade is a 2nd gen yaris that was simply given the charade name, and that was just to make it as easy as possible for diahatsu to carry on in those markets. who cares? nobody here, im sure.

at 2300 lbs, I will gladly buy lots of 100-ish horsepower cars. the fiat 500, at 101 hp, is the most fun car ive had since a 1980 vw rabbit. the service experience more than the car led me away from fiat.

if hp is ones only determining factor then you will always be chasing more hp. for many small car drivers, hp is not a major determining factor.

we will see, in the next 10-15 years, more subcompacts, perhaps even diesels, with a little more torque but under 100 hp.

would I buy a 100 hp car in 2014?......heck, id buy a 85 hp diesel subcompact in a second.

[why?]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

I'm assuming (from a U.S. perspective only, of course) that you mean when what we call the ECHO first came out ? The base pice on the 07 5M USDM 3-door was at least 11k+, IIRC.
I agree.
Good points. The only one of those that matters to me personally is the 6-speed manual (which of course the Yaris has in other markets ).
()
What percentage or fraction of your ability to do the above is attributable,do you think, to the fact that you've removed your rear seating area, and other items . Even if I could squeeze a couple more MPG out of an automatic over the same car with a manual, I'd still want the manual (as long as the model in question isn't really heavy) knowing I could push the car and compression start it in a pinch if I needed to do that.
Yep +++ .

Actually the base 2007 Yaris was $9999. And the 6 speed Yaris manual in other countries has a much better ratio for gas mileage than our 5th gear does, our 5th gear is totally useless.

As to my gas mileage, very little. My 2nd tank of gas I managed to hit 44 mpg. The car was completely stock, and I still have no idea how I managed it. A better sorted gear box would make it easier.

Originally Posted by Flipper_1938

I personally don't want stop-start or direct injection. Neither of those technologies are proving to be trouble free.

I really would prefer my existing yaris didn't have ABS (ASB= Anti-Stop Brakes)

A 6 speed manual trans would be nice though.

stop start is simply a better battery/heavy duty starter. Other countries, such as Japan, they are standard and have been for quite a while.

While Direct Injection has had some odd problems, I am sure they will be taken care of, and the benefits are massive. A 2liter turbo Mercedez Benz can get a 26/38 EPA rating, am I really suppose to believe a Yaris cannot match that?

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

I was going by a general assumption that the set up on a 6-speed vs a 5-speed (on average) would allow the 6-speed to be at a lower rpm (and likely higher MPG) than the 5-speed at the same MPH.
If one wound through the gears ALWAYS at a low rpm (trying to get to 5th or 6th as quickly as possible without 'bogging'), wouldn't the diminished efficiency of more gears to 'row'/'wind' through be minimal, or almost non existent ?

Totally non existent if you do it right, and much better than a "three speed." That is just absurd. If you shift our current 5 speed at 1500 rpm's, you are in 5th before you hit 25 or so. And if we had a 6 speed and better gearing it would help gas mileage.

Originally Posted by bronsin

In most six speed transmissions the highest speed is equal to or lower than the comparable highest speed in a five speed, four speed etc.
It is unusual for it to be higher which would result in lower rpms.
If you accelerated the engine to the same rpm in a six, five, and four speed transmission before shifting up you would have slightly less mpg the more speeds you shifted through. More speeds does NOT mean more mpg. The eight speed autos Chrysler and others have come out with are just pulling the wool over the eyes of the unwary consumer.
However as you suggest the difference might not be much or even noticeable in practical experience.
And a three speed transmission would not be as adaptable to varying road conditions as a six, five, or even four speed.
HOWEVER!
Manufacturers are guilty of misleading the public in many things. All the time they were increasing the size, weight, and displacement of cars like the Corolla they said "And the mileage is improved!"
Not so.
My sister in law had something like an 85 Camry that got 38 mpg around town while my wifes 05 Camry gets 22.
If you have your heart set on a six speed (soon to be SEVEN speed!) before purchasing get a print out of the final drive ratio of each speed and compare it to the five speed. In many case there IS no five speed to compare it to!
BUT you can always SKIP gears as I did on my motorcycles when going cross country or commuting to work. I shifted my ST1100 and 1300 1-3-5.

The Yaris six speed box has a lower 6th speed, which would result in much better gas mileage.

Originally Posted by juicyjosh

Guys and gals, we all realize the 2014 Yaris is a 2005 Yaris, which is a 2007 Daihatsu Charade..., right?
Would YOU buy a 2005 100-hp FWD car... TODAY IN 2014?
I know I wouldn't.
There's also a minimal commission payout to Toyota sales reps for selling the Yaris, so the sales reps aren't going to be pushing these cars to begin with. The point is significant: Salespeople aren't going to spend 4 hours to trying to convince someone to buy a cheaply-made car hoping to make $1xx.00 commission when they can much more easily sell a "nicer" Camry or Corolla and make $3xx.00.
But Toyota's milking the 2005 Yaris (a.k.a. 2007 Daihatsu Charade) for all it's worth. The 2012-on Yaris has an exterior and interior refresh, but it's only a facelift. Like everything else in life, what's inside is more important. In the case of the Yaris, the engine, drivetrain, suspension are all circa 2005. (So the 2012 SE has disks in the rear; There's so little weight back there that there's no significant performance benefit.) However for 2012, Toyota remapped the ecu for "softer" throttle response to get an extra 1 mpg City and Highway for the MT. Thanks Toyota for completing the initially only partially botched castration of what little cojones this car ever had to begin with.
I leased the car because of a unique situation I was in at the time where I needed something cheap with Toyota reliability, and I had no time to be working on cars. And I got a 5-speed fwiw. At least it was cheaper than the auto, and I'm averaging 29 mpg on 87 octane, which isn't bad, though could be better for a 2300-lb. car with a very optimistic 106-hp rating.
Hopefully this helps ppl to not lose any sleep over this car's demise.

Love it, but it is also really an Echo from the turn of the century. And they keep a lot of the good stuff out of the USA.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by roxy1

I owned an 07 yaris and now a 14 yaris. the 14 is a little longer, has different sheet metal, a different interior, is definitely quieter, has a better ride, gets a little better mileage, and is safer. it is definitely a different generation yaris. so no, a 2014 yaris is not a 2005 yaris.

the 2007 charade is a 2nd gen yaris that was simply given the charade name, and that was just to make it as easy as possible for diahatsu to carry on in those markets. who cares? nobody here, im sure.

at 2300 lbs, I will gladly buy lots of 100-ish horsepower cars. the fiat 500, at 101 hp, is the most fun car ive had since a 1980 vw rabbit. the service experience more than the car led me away from fiat.

if hp is ones only determining factor then you will always be chasing more hp. for many small car drivers, hp is not a major determining factor.

we will see, in the next 10-15 years, more subcompacts, perhaps even diesels, with a little more torque but under 100 hp.

would I buy a 100 hp car in 2014?......heck, id buy a 85 hp diesel subcompact in a second.

After reading JuicyJosh's post I was mulling over my response. No need. You hit the nail on the head.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by why?

Actually the base 2007 Yaris was $9999

I notice that your join date = before I purchased my Yaris. IIRC, The Yaris was first available in May of 2006 in the U.S. as a 2007 model. Perhaps the $9999 = the initial arrivals, and then by October a price increase had gone into effect. The base price of my base model purchased on October 7th, 2006 was $11,050.00.

[Thirty-Nine]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

After reading JuicyJosh's post I was mulling over my response. No need. You hit the nail on the head.

QFT!

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by Thirty-Nine

QFT!

..........well, I just increased slumping sales by one. As of last Friday 8/8/14 the customizable cars.com search engine (that roxy1 posted a link to a while back.....can pull the Yaris inventory for the whole united states) showed 22 manual transmission 2014 Yari (3 SE and 19 L). Seven of the L = in my preferred colors of White and Silver..... 4 in Florida, 1 in Tennessee, 1 in Ohio, and one in Illinois (in Naperville, where another YW member bought a 2014). Only 3 of the 7 = discounting anything off off the base MSRP...Toyota of Lakewood in FL, Royal Palm Toyota in FL (55 miles farther north), and the dealer in Naperville, IL. I honed in on the cheapest listing, posted by Toyota of Lakewood. It's still listed (at least as of a 1/2 hour or so ago) on cars.com with lots of pics ()...but it's not available. I'm in Dunedin, FL right now and I just parked it a few minutes ago.


The $12,866 on my car on cars.com = the $1,564 off the $14,430 base sticker MSRP..adding the 860.00 'destination' (on the MFR sticker on all new cars) = $13,720. In comparison, Royal Palm's Silver 3door = $13,888 ($542 off the $14,430 base MSRP) + 860.00 destination = $14,748...and the Naperville, IL dealer's $14,444 on cars.com does include destination, so = $13,584 + 860.00 desdination = $14,444. This Naperville, IL car has been sitting there since March 2014.

The car I bought had TDIO (Toyota Distributor Installed Options ) included on the factory sticker (but listed separately from the base MSRP and the 'destination' that is on all facrory stickers). Toyota only has two remaining independently owned distributors--Southeast Toyota, and Gulf States Toyota--covering a total of 10 U.S. states. My car has a TDIO package (listed on the original MFG sticker) that retailed for $946.00 and I negotiated that down to $790.00. My TDIO package original priced included -- #1 - $399 for the rear spoiler (something I like, and would have cost $435 if I had it put on at my local Toyota dealer in TX), #2 - $299 - for the 4 floor mats (a total rip off...I look at the $156.00 discount I negotiated off the package as coming off of this...the 4 floor mats on my 2007 = on the factory sticker as an option = about $150.00. #3 - $199 for film -- same idea as the 3M Clear Bra, but also included 3 additional areas (each door, and the 'load sill'/top of the rear bumper), and #4 - $49 for a Connection Package - 4 items - Apple 30 pin cable, Apple Lightening cable, a USB micro or mini cable, and a 12v USB plug). The Royal Palm car didn't have the TDIO/Spoiler pkg, and of course the Illinois car didn't because Illinois is not one of the 10 states that is covered by the independent distributors (Southeast and Gulf States).

A dealer PAC sticker of about 1k (..the existence of PAC stickers has p****d me off since I was a little kid) was added to the car when the dealer put it in inventory. It included a pinstripe with lifetime reapplication, lifetime nitrogen for the tires, and a few other things I can't think of off the top of my head. Adding that PAC sticker to the price must have completely went out the window when they put it on cars.com. I didn't expect them to include the PAC sticker items as benefits to me (because they never tried to add even $1 re those items), but the benefits were included (good idea on their part...potentially generates foot traffic at a pretty low cost).

The rest = sales tax (at the higher TX rate in my zip code), licensing, titling, etc (300+, IIRC, total in addition to the sales tax (the government fees = ). The total out the door/including all (above) was $15,990. They let me put $5,000 on Visa to get the Frequent Flier miles (I'd already put a $5k payment on my card (separate from the balance I pay off every month)...creating a way less than zero balance...to represent the charge. This was the most any dealer has let me do (dealer feeling re VISA transaction fees = ). When I bought my blue Yaris, the dealer let me do the same thing, but only for $2,000 OR $2,500 (I can't remember which). I did a bank guaranteed check for the other $10,990. All in all, I'm satisfied. I'm heading back to Texas tomorrow.

P.S. I was going to drive to Florida and sell my blue Yaris to Carmax (or to the dealer if they offered me more), but over the weekend I asked myself why....because I can't fit both into my garage?.....because insurance might be a bit more?...I decided these were dumb reasons (and I later learned the iinsurance increase = $150 something per year). I decided to keep my blue Yaris (I'll reevaluate as needed re repairs...no repairs needed at this time...but on the horizon). I redeemed a small portion of my mileage balance and flew to Florida instead.

^^^^^ Added P.S. on 8-13-2014


P.P.S. - On 9-9-2014 I got a refund check from the dealership for the amount they overcharged me for the sales tax and the titling -- the check was for $312.77 ---- This reduced my out the door cost to $15,677.23

[marcar72]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

..........well, I just increased slumping sales by one. As of last Friday 8/8/14 ...

Hey congratulations! Good for you! I got my 2014 L manual out the door from Libertyville, IL for $15,872 so you did real good!