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Old 09-28-2020, 02:42 PM   #55
ern-diz
 
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Holy smokes, cars in your neck of the woods sure do rust up good!

My engine bay looks nearly the way it did off the line, 13 years ago.

You're right, that was a shameful repair attempt by the previous owner.
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Old 09-28-2020, 06:32 PM   #56
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ern-diz View Post
Holy smokes, cars in your neck of the woods sure do rust up good!

My engine bay looks nearly the way it did off the line, 13 years ago.

You're right, that was a shameful repair attempt by the previous owner.
Oh, for sure. It's the god awful road salt they dump by the ton. With rustproofing, they can look like new after years and years. I had a Dodge Grand Caravan, which are notorious for rotting out in the rear rockers and dogleg area. I rustproofed mine from day one and after 10 years it looked new, even inside the rockers when I check it out with my inspection camera. Other than that manifold, the engine bay in this '07 is in pristine condition as, at least in the bay, they sprayed a lot of rustproofing goop. Those manifolds though do rust out. I had to replace the one on my 2006 RS when I bought it, but that car doesn't see winter. I expect that the '07, when done will also be a 3 season car. Cars around here that aren't driven in the winter last a very, very long time.

Yup, using muffler cement is a piss poor way to fix something. I'm paying the price now as they didn't do the correct repair and replace the manifold. Pretty sure I'm going to be looking at a difficult job extracting what is likely going to be a snapped off bolt. I'm prepared, though, as I have a variety of extractors and drill bits as well as the welder if I can move the engine forward and get the right angle to weld a nut on. It ain't gonna be fun, though. lol
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Old 09-28-2020, 09:01 PM   #57
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Bolt extraction decisions

I'm applying my limited knowledge of physics to this problem. First, I will try the socket extractor. I ordered these and will pick them up this week.



If the socket extractor fails, I'll try the drill and extract tools. Since my bench vise is broken and I have to buy a new one, I used it to test the strength of the various extractors I might use. Surprisingly, I think that the tool of choice will be a Torx T25 socket bit. I drilled a hole in my vise, pounded in the torx bit, attached the ratchet. I was really surprised at how much pressure it could withstand. I figured it would snap the bit off, but it actually shredded the cast iron inside the hole. I know that cast is softer than the actual bolt but I was really pushing hard on the ratchet. Although a Torx T30 would be stronger, I feel that the expansion force in the drilled hole in the bolt might bind it tighter. The advantage, I believe of using the Torx bit, is that it should provide a better grip on the bolt as it's not tapered or cone shaped like the 'actual' extractors, so should have deeper and more consistent grip. Regardless of approach, I'll heat the bolt and cool it a few cycles as well as apply lots of penetrant over a period of time.









I plan to cut the manifold runner pipes off as close to the head flange as possible. I will try removing the other bolt first (the one I haven't attempted yet). If unsuccessful, I'll grind both bolts off level with the manifold and remove the manifold. This may give me a bit of bolt poking out of the head (due to the thickness of the manifold) to attempt to weld a nut to it. I'm not optimistic that I'll be able to weld inside the nut and I could probably only do this if I release the lower dogbone engine mount and/or remove the passenger side axle. This is an option as I have to replace that axle anyway.

There were some deep discounts at Princess Auto, so I picked up a few other items including a 5pc pry bar set, 5pc center punch set, telescoping inspection mirror, telescoping magnet, a torch and a few other odds and ends. Here's the compact impact gun I picked up. I won't actually use this in the extraction process, but rather I'll use a ratchet as it will give me more control.

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Old 10-01-2020, 10:38 PM   #58
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Literally a nightmare scenario for me with the exhaust manifold. I'm very fortunate on my 1 litre engined Yaris that the exhaust manifold is on the front of the engine facing the radiator. I literally just replaced my exhaust manifold last weekend. It had a very large crack in it which was causing it to set P0420. I also replaced both the Oxygen sensors with new Denso sensors. I have also had to replace the water pump (leaking and rattling) and the radiator as I think it has a pin hole leak or two which is why I was losing coolant.

In my case all the bolts came out without too much of a fight.

From what I have seen your best bet would probably be to weld a nut onto whats left of that bolt and use as much heat as possible. Hopefully it has the effect of freeing the bolt. Using a torx isn't such a bad idea either - unlike other kinds of extractors it doesn't have such an "expansive" force on the fastener which might increase the friction you're trying to overcome by getting it out. Those other extractors you have which have teeth inside the socket are fairly decent. I have a set and I have used them as well a few times successfully.

Best of luck mate - you will need it.
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Old 10-02-2020, 05:58 AM   #59
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Quote:
Originally Posted by zoidberg444 View Post
Literally a nightmare scenario for me with the exhaust manifold. I'm very fortunate on my 1 litre engined Yaris that the exhaust manifold is on the front of the engine facing the radiator. I literally just replaced my exhaust manifold last weekend. It had a very large crack in it which was causing it to set P0420. I also replaced both the Oxygen sensors with new Denso sensors. I have also had to replace the water pump (leaking and rattling) and the radiator as I think it has a pin hole leak or two which is why I was losing coolant.

In my case all the bolts came out without too much of a fight.

From what I have seen your best bet would probably be to weld a nut onto whats left of that bolt and use as much heat as possible. Hopefully it has the effect of freeing the bolt. Using a torx isn't such a bad idea either - unlike other kinds of extractors it doesn't have such an "expansive" force on the fastener which might increase the friction you're trying to overcome by getting it out. Those other extractors you have which have teeth inside the socket are fairly decent. I have a set and I have used them as well a few times successfully.

Best of luck mate - you will need it.
Yes, I am quite apprehensive about this operation. My intention is to tackle it on the weekend. I have been worrying about the 'expansive' force on the bolt that you mention. I see it as a bit of a catch 22 in that using too large of a drilled hole and extraction tool would likely increase the friction, yet using too small an extraction tool could result in it snapping off inside the hole. I really think that the bolt head and washer are the parts that are rusted to the manifold flange and attempting to break them free is what might cause the head to either strip or shear off. The threads of the bolts themselves - the ones that I already removed - don't appear to be rusty. I am considering grinding the head and washer off and just tackling the shank. Welding a nut on would be my preferred approach and I may yet do that. If I can grind the bolts flush to the manifold flange, theoretically I could remove the manifold and have a stub of shank to weld to. Regardless, it would require leaning the engine forward quite a bit. I simply couldn't get the welder perpendicular enough to the head to get down inside the nut due to space constraints. I do intend to let heat be my friend. I have a propane torch and in testing, have managed, quite easily, to get a bolt head glowing cherry red. I just put a similar sized bolt in my bench vice and heated it. I'm not sure if I have enough BTUs to get the shank of the bolt red hot as it's sitting in quite a heat sink (the head). If I'm applying heat for a period, should I worry about melting the aluminum head? Then again, I doubt I could do it as there is likely water in the water jacket surrounding the bolt. The other option, I suppose, is to drill out the bolt completely and tap for a larger bolt. However, I don't have any info on how thin the aluminum is and if it poses a risk to entering a water jacket. I can put a slightly shorter bolt in but not knowing how much wall thickness I have to work with would concern me.

I really appreciate the feedback and am open to additional suggestions.
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Old 10-02-2020, 09:10 PM   #60
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Good news and bad news...

Good: I got the 5th bolt out with the socket extractor. It was touchy going, but it came out.



I cut the runners off the manifold to have better access to the bolts.

Bad: I keep making mistakes. I had no luck with the socket extractor on the last bolt. The head was too badly damaged. I ground the bolt and washer flat to the manifold flange. This is where I screwed up. I should have removed the manifold flange at that point. Had I done that, I probably would have had enough poking out to grab on with some vise grips. But, figuring that with the bolt and washer gone, I could drill a hole and use the extractor. The torque needed to remove the other bolt was well within the strength of the extractor. So, I used a center punch and then drilled into the bolt.



The actual was drilled a little deeper - deeper than the depth of the extractor.



I got it centered well. Unfortunately, despite setting the extractor well, it just stripped and tore the bolt, leaving it in the head. Heat didn't help, sadly. I decided to drill a little deeper and try a slightly larger extractor. Then, the unthinkable happened...the drill bit broke off in the bolt.



Tomorrow, I will weld the hole closed, build up a good nub and try using vise grips to get this dang thing out. If that fails, I'll pick up a diamond bit, bore it out slowly and try using a thread chase or pick to remove the last bit of the bolt. If that fails, I'll drill larger and tap new theads for a larger bolt.

Not giving up yet! I don't want to pull the engine, but I will if I have to. If I do pull the engine, I'll put my other lower mileage 1NZ in in its place.
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Old 10-04-2020, 06:14 AM   #61
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Fail...

I got prepped a large washer by drilling it out the exact size of the manifold bolt, then ground down both sides to shiny metal for good contact. I built up the inside of the hole drilled in the bolt the best I could, then welded the washer to the base of the bolt stub. Finally, I built up a big nub of weld. I shaped it enough so that I could get a socket extractor on it. The bolt shank went through several heat and cooling cycles during the welding; glowing red then cooling. I applied a lot of force with my ratchet; much more that was required to remove the other 4 bolts. It seemed to start turning, then the washer and weld nub snapped off, leaving the bolt shank flush with the block. I tried drilling and using an extractor, which, of course, snapped off inside the bolt shank.

I will not give up! I am consider a few more options:

1) get a diamond or carbide tungsten bit and drill the whole shank out, then tap new threads for a slightly larger bolt. Or, use progressively increasing sized bits and try to remove the bolt shank while preserving the threads. I would use a pick to pull out the remaining material and run thread chase through.

2) Build up a nub of weld on the top of the flush broken stud. Install the manifold with the metal gasket, weld a washer to manifold over the weld nub and then weld the nub to the washer.

3) Carefully weld (so as not to warp the manifold) a stiffening brace around the missing manifold bolt. The manifold is pretty thick metal and quite stiff. There may not be a leak with the 5th bolt missing.



My gut tells me to go with option 1; continue to try removing the broken bolt shank. Then installing a new fastener.
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Old 10-04-2020, 09:00 PM   #62
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Some pics from yesterday

This is the washer I welded on. I don't have a pic of the massive nub I piled up in the center. Sadly, the bolt's shank is still in the block. I'm amazed how badly stuck it is. I put some serious force on the ratchet before it sheared off. The washer looks like it was welded to the head on the top, but it wasn't.



Here's the old manifold. The flange that attaches to the cat pipe rotted off so only one spring bolt kit was holding it in place. Also, the support bracket attachment point was completely gone. Nice extra OE wideband, though.



The manifold from my swapped out 1NZ. This manifold is in pristine condition despite the flaking ceramic paint. Note to self...not even high temp ceramic paint will withstand exhaust temps. I even had a relatively new, yet used spring bolt kit and a new donut gasket that I bought on a closeout ages ago.



Got bored waiting to pick up my diamond bit and tungsten carbide burring tools (to drill out the broken extractor in the manifold bolt), so I sanded, primed and painted the manifold support. I will have to take the support in to source a bolt. The old one had to be sawed off as the nut was rust welded to it and completely corroded.





In the next few days, I'll remove the 1/4" chunk of hardened steel extractor from the bolt shank with my diamond tip bit and or tungsten carbide pointed and round deburring tools. Then, I'll either drill it out to 10M (original bolt is 8M) and try tapping for the larger bolt. Or, I'll install a helicoil and use another 8M bolt. I do not know how thick the water jacket walls are, so a bit apprehensive about upsizing the bolt hole.
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Old 10-05-2020, 04:31 PM   #63
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Oh, man, you've been through the ringer with this one. Enjoying the persistence!
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Old 10-05-2020, 10:50 PM   #64
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Oh, man, you've been through the ringer with this one. Enjoying the persistence!
Yeah, it's been a rough one. I worked on it a bit tonight and managed to grind the extractor out with the tungsten carbide dremel bit. It wasn't easy going as the bit wanted to keep slipping off the hardened steel extractor piece in the hole and dig away at the softer aluminum. I'm sure that if I had had the engine out of the car things would have gone differently. It's very hard bending over the engine and using mirrors to see what I'm doing. I started drilling a new hole which I will tap and use a different bolt. I need to go get better sharper bits as mine are pretty worn. I hope to have this wrapped up in the next few days. I don't get much time in the evenings - maybe an hour or two.
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Old 10-06-2020, 07:09 PM   #65
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Success...finally!

Most people know this, but I can't underscore the importance of a good drill bit. I picked up a new gold oxide bit and it cut into the block clean and straight with almost no pressure needed on my pneumatic angle drill. Tapping was fairly easy as the aluminum is soft. I was a little nervous drilling deep enough to have adequate threads, but I didn't break through into any water jackets or anything else. Although a bolt turns in nicely and tightly, I've decided to use a stud and nut instead. I will probably use a stud in place of the other manifold bolt too. I think it will make future repairs, if needed, easier.

Long end of stud in block. Before final installation, I'll apply some copper RTV sealant. There are probably better high temp sealants, but the copper RTV has done a great job of holding my turbo studs in and those get a heck of a lot hotter than any head stud/bolt.



Nut on stud

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Old 10-07-2020, 07:05 AM   #66
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Success! I've been following your struggle and admiring your tenacity. Congratulations. Carry on, mate.
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Old 10-07-2020, 11:24 AM   #67
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Success! I've been following your struggle and admiring your tenacity. Congratulations. Carry on, mate.
Thanks! Haha, yeah, it feels good finally getting it sorted. I know where I went wrong and have definitely learned from the experience.
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Old 10-10-2020, 11:28 AM   #68
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Exhaust work done...

Got the manifold on. I applied a bead of Permatex copper RTV on both sides of the steel gasket. It squeezed out nicely on both sides. Hopefully it seals. I'll start the car later today after the RTV sets up a bit. Then, final torquing of the bolts after that.



Brace remounted



New exhaust donut and used but fairly new spring bolt kit installed.

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Old 10-10-2020, 05:12 PM   #69
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Bet it felt great when you finally got that bolt out.
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Old 10-10-2020, 06:37 PM   #70
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Bet it felt great when you finally got that bolt out.
Oh man, you know it! If I ever have to do this again, any bolts/studs that won't come out, I'll grind flush with the manifold. Then, remove the manifold, weld nuts onto the bit of stud/bolts that's sticking out. I think my welding nub failed because I'd already compromised the bolt shank by drilling it out. No more male extractor type tools for me! I think I got lucky after the extractor broke off in the bolt shank. Those carbide dremel burring bits saved the day. They chewed up that hardened steel extractor like it was nothing, and it did no damage to the bits. I also got lucky drilling and tapping.

BTW, started the car and it's dead silent up front now. I do need to install an exhaust donut between the cat pipe and muffler at the back. Otherwise, the exhaust system is in excellent shape.
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Old 10-10-2020, 08:55 PM   #71
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Wow, that was intense! You, sir, have patience and perseverance!
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Old 10-10-2020, 10:31 PM   #72
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Wow, that was intense! You, sir, have patience and perseverance!
Haha, yeah, it was a demanding job. Oddly enough, I've wanted for some time the experience of removing a frozen, broken bolt. I'm sure the experience and what I learned will come in handy again!
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