I BIT THE BULLET!

[otterhere]

This must be where my (middle) age shows, LOL... All of you young kids are celebrating the purchase of your brand new Yari, and here I'm having buyer's remorse... Remind me again why I spent ALL this money on a brand new car because I just HAD to have the 2009 Yaris??? Oy, my aching bank account...

I'm not happy about having to pay something like a thou all together for all these little extras I really didn't want, and I think that's what's eating me...

Shame, Toyota, for "loading" these cars! But maybe I'll learn to love MP3...

:redface:,

[PreciousPups4U]

"middle" age here and no regrets.

Love all my extras, power windows, locks, keyless. Can't imagine the car without them. Even got the second one equiped just the same except the first one is an auto and the second one is a manual. Now I have never used the MP3 thing, but I don't have an ipod.

Just enjoy, what color did you settle on? Did you get the 3 dr or 5 dr?

[jclo3313]

I'm an odd one I ordered mine (08') with few options for the same reason. My wifes Yaris is loaded up and she loves it and wouldn't have had it any other way. Just sit back and enjoy all of the goodies.:biggrin:

[lita_g]

Shame, Toyota, for "loading" these cars! But maybe I'll learn to love MP3...

:redface:,

I find it hard to believe people still listen to radio, I can't stand all the commercials and I'm not a fan of talk radio. Plain CDs can't hold much, so it's great to have an MP3 disc player and the audio aux input, I don't have an Ipod (hate them with all my soul) but I have a walkman phone and it's awesome to be able to plug it into the car and browse through my songs, besides, if someone calls me, I can hear them through the speakers :thumbup:

[otterhere]

I find it hard to believe people still listen to radio, I can't stand all the commercials and I'm not a fan of talk radio. Plain CDs can't hold much, so it's great to have an MP3 disc player and the audio aux input, I don't have an Ipod (hate them with all my soul) but I have a walkman phone and it's awesome to be able to plug it into the car and browse through my songs, besides, if someone calls me, I can hear them through the speakers :thumbup:


But you're young, right??? All I wanted was a car that ran well:frown:... For $11k...

[Stargate YARlantIS]

I went w/ the base model, I didn't need all the bells and whistles, keyless: no big shake, so i gotta stick a key in the door, BFD! lol power windows: something else to brake, I don't mind the manual crank ( my boss said he didn't think they still made cars w/ crank windows) lol

[lita_g]

But you're young, right??? All I wanted was a car that ran well:frown:... For $11k...

I don't know how "young" I am anymore, not a kid, 27 already. Believe me, a car that runs well for $11k sounds good to me too, but if I was going to buy a new car I was going to get what would make me comfortable this time, so I had to ask for AT (don't care to drive MT with heels on), power windows/doors/mirrors are something I'm already used to, and I can't be on the road for 30 mins each way when going to work with no music, I've tried FM modulators in the past but they're not the same.

Anyway, I know there's some yaris that don't come fully loaded, I know that because I saw a whole bunch of them when looking for the one that had the specs *I* wanted.

[Luna V 2.0]

I was kinda in the same boat. I wanted the power package, not because of the goodies but because I want a rear flat folding seat. But I also wanted to spend under 12k.

My solution was buying a used 07. Worked out for me. considering my last car was a 92 Tercel, having a 07 is close enough to "new" for me. I only regret it when I think about having 4 doors, not because I want to ride people int he back but because it's just a hassle to climb into the back to get the seats to fold flat.

I grew to like the extras anyway, its nice having the keyless, although I'm paranoid of the battery dieing on me and then not being able to get in my car (cause its keyless/alarm). In fact I might eventually un install the alarm, I never wanted it anyway, it just came with the car.

[otterhere]

I think we have different definitions of "extras"... Mine is w/o power windows, power locks, keyless entry, etc. (didn't get power package)... But there is no "base" model out there without at least the convenience package; most also have all-weather guard package (which I consider a total rip-off; you get a "better" heater and washer fluid holder? is the "regular" not good enough? Rear defroster? But wait; you already paid for that in your convenience package!). And the $150 mats; don't get me started...

So I got as bare bones as I could (without "special ordering" and waiting a year and then maybe not even getting it, and it wasn't bare bone enough to suit me. "Done and done!"

[Thej3sta2]

blasphemy

[MadMax]

I gotta admit, owning a Jeep Wrangler made me more acceptable of a Yaris with manual locks and windows. I kinda like the fact that they are mechanical and not electrical, if you know what I mean. I have more of a chance of fixing them if they break, which is less likely because of the lack of complexity!

But I have to admit the MP3 auxillary jack is one of the coolest things on the car! I love bringing my music and listening to my playlists, not some assclown DJ's idea of music! Or I can listen to one of the several podcasts I download, such as CarTalk (my fav).

Yeah, I'm middle aged as well (45); but I am re-living my youth a bit with my Yaris. It has tinted windows and mag wheels, and the last time I put an exhaust tip on a car it was still the 1970s! And I paid way too much for my Yaris, but I love it and can't wait to teach my boys how to drive in it! But I also had "buyer's remorse" for spending that much money on a car, especially after I just bought two new M1911 pistols about a month prior! But the wife just talked me into $5000 in new appliances in the house, and we just put in $1400 in wooden blinds in our house. Plus, about a year ago we put in over $3500 in wooden floors, so the joy of spending is shared!

Cheers! M2

[aca72]

You'll be smiling a lot when the price of fuel goes back to $5 per gallon.

[specialeducator]

"middle" age here and no regrets.

Love all my extras, power windows, locks, keyless. Can't imagine the car without them. Even got the second one equiped just the same except the first one is an auto and the second one is a manual. Now I have never used the MP3 thing, but I don't have an ipod.

Just enjoy, what color did you settle on? Did you get the 3 dr or 5 dr?

I'm middle-age too- somehow I now think I must need an ipod now. Once you plug it in, where does it sit?

[oilman930]

I am also middle age, but too quickly coming up on being an old man, and I am not going quietly.

I ordered a Yaris S and will be paying what some people think is way too much money for a Yaris. I want the car with every option. Hopefully the car will show up before the 2010 models come out and with the right options in it.

As for music, maybe I will opt for Sirius radio. I already have an account so I might as well listen to it in the car too.

The car will have big shoes to fill, it will be a replacement for the Mini Cooper S that I sold after I got married.

[BailOut]

I don't think I quite qualify as middle-aged yet as I just turned 36 (my wife, who is older than I, likes to tell me that I'm in my late 30's now!" :smile:) but I love the MP3 player and the all weather package. I, too, avoided the power package as those things have always been the first to break on me and are always unjustifiably expensive to repair.

The rear heater is valuable if you have passengers back there. The larger fluid tank isn't so much a boon as the low level indicator is because most of us tear through fluid during thaws and it's difficult to see how much you have left due to the tank's placement in the engine compartment. The rear defroster is self explanatory. Etc.

The ability to play MP3s is nice for me in three ways. First, as others have stated radio has way too many commercials (it was always bad but it's even worse under the Clear Channel banner nowadays) and music CDs don't hold much music so it's wonderful to be able to pop in a data CD that's chock full of like 10 hours of MP3s and then hit the random button (although the random algorithm isn't random at all, much to my dismay).

Secondly, the ability to hook up an MP3 player via the auxiliary jack is a boon for my carpoolers. The 3, sometimes 4 of us have a 35-45 minute drive in each direction and it is wonderful to be able to check out books on CD from our local library, rip them to MP3 and turn them back in right away so that someone else can check them out, then hook up the player during the drive. Right now we're listening to William Gibson's "Spook Country". "Animal, Vegetable, Miracle" is next.

Thirdly, when it's nice outside and we have the windows down you can't hear audio books well so it's time to jam out, and the aux jack makes it possible for everyone to take turns hooking up their MP3 player and selecting their favorite playlist. It's a great way to get exposed to different music, and when combined with the democratic way we select audio books it gets everyone involved in the audio decisions. No one feels left out and everybody is happy. :smile:

[otterhere]

Well, I'm single and virtually NEVER carry more than one passenger (in fact, I would've bought the Smart Twofer had it not been for all the interstate driving among crazy 18-wheelers going 80 mph), so "rear" anything (except cargo space) is wasted on me. Trust me: I will NEVER own an iPod, iPhone, or MP3 player. However, to answer your question, you can put your device in one of any 20 "compartments"; that cost $750!!!

Seriously, I'm disappointed in Toyota for not just offering it bare bones and letting us "build our own," as they advertise; it's very American (greedy) and unworthy...

[b_hickman11]

they do it because it saves them money

[otterhere]

they do it because it saves them money

MAKES them money!!! Good product for a good price is what I thought Toyota was all about - not loading bells and whistles for a profit... : (

[Tiddlygoose]

Toyota just puts in what most people would want in a basic car. All I got was the power option and the keyless entry. Have you ever tried to drive down the farms roads and crank a window up or down? I would go off the road! With the power windows, you just push a button. I also have them in my Tacoma, which has 100,000 miles with no issues what so ever, so I will trust that the Yaris' windows will work at least as long.

It is a great little inexpensive car that holds a helluva lot of stuff if you need to haul your life somewhere else!

[MadMax]

I revived this thread as I noticed that our own resident dipshit Otterhere has been bashing our beloved Yaris over at CarTalk.com (Hatin' on the Yaris (http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2119609.page) and Still Hatin' on the Yaris (http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2121591.page))!

Dear God, what a fucking whiner! What in the fuck were you expecting for $11K? And you really think you would be happier with a Hyundai Accent Hatch? You must be a real fucking idiot!

The next time you "bite the bullet," make sure it is leaving the barrel of a gun at maximum velocity!

[Forrest]

I revived this thread as I noticed that our own resident dipshit Otterhere has been bashing our beloved Yaris over at CarTalk.com (Hatin' on the Yaris (http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2119609.page) and Still Hatin' on the Yaris (http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2121591.page))!

Dear God, what a fucking whiner! What in the fuck were you expecting for $11K? And you really think you would be happier with a Hyundai Accent Hatch? You must be a real fucking idiot!

The next time you "bite the bullet," make sure it is leaving the barrel of a gun at maximum velocity!
:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

[TheRealEnth]

madmax can i ask how you found his threads? lol

[SIPNGAS]

A broken record, really. And they're telling him/her the same things we did.

[JBougie]

*rolls eyes* he should sell the Yaris and just take the bus. The Yaris deserves better than that guy.

[HTM Yaris]

I got my 07 and 09 LB's with no power . Just the way I ordered them . I ordered my 07 in Nov. 05 and took delivery in June 06 . Hell it was three months before I (my son) figured out that I could plug in my Ipod Nano :smile:
I put my Ipod ( with Vera Bradley case ) next to the e-brake . It has a 3' retractable plug ( Toyota dealership $ 8.99 Scoche brand) .

In my opinion , the Yaris LB is the best car in the US market at ANY price . Don't get me wrong , The EVO X , Lotus 240 S , and GTR are all affordable , but they take away from the driving experience . I don't want some computer reigning in on my fun . Not to mention to replace the tires on the aformentioned vehicles is a house payment or two . Besides , who the hell wants to ride around while sitting on a dead cow . I hear all the time about how "gay" the polka dot seats are , but what people don't seem to realize is those "gay" seats grip like hell . Ever hear about anyone sliding around in Yaris seats ?

The Yaris LB helped me get back to the fundamentals of driving . I don't need massive amounts of HP to have fun anymore . Sure , going 0 to 60 in 4 seconds is fun , but it is even more fun to make a 300 + HP car relent to a 103 HP car in the twisties . Even better yet , when the 300 + HP car finally catches up at the overlooks , demand to see your turbo kit . Yes its priceless to see the look on their faces when the figure out , "it really is only 103 HP "


I love my Yaris ( Coryn ) so much I am making a movie about it , with original soundtrack . So far I have about 120 hours of footage . Just so ya'll know , there will be REAL people playing REAL instruments on my soundtrack , and NO sampling . I am creative enough that I don't have to steal someboby else's material . My approach to the movie will in essence , be just like the Yaris , that is , bare bones , and HELLACIOUS FUN .

[HTM Yaris]

JBOUGIE , Killer avatar ....SERIOUSLY

:headbang::bow::headbang::bow:

[JBougie]

JBOUGIE , Killer avatar ....SERIOUSLY

:headbang::bow::headbang::bow:

I did it so that it will drop the hint I am a girl, not a boy :wink:

[HTM Yaris]

Well , I'm a boy and I love the Kitty . In more ways than one :biggrin:

[JBougie]

I got my 07 and 09 LB's with no power . Just the way I ordered them . I ordered my 07 in Nov. 05 and took delivery in June 06 . Hell it was three months before I (my son) figured out that I could plug in my Ipod Nano :smile:
I put my Ipod ( with Vera Bradley case ) next to the e-brake . It has a 3' retractable plug ( Toyota dealership $ 8.99 Scoche brand) .

In my opinion , the Yaris LB is the best car in the US market at ANY price . Don't get me wrong , The EVO X , Lotus 240 S , and GTR are all affordable , but they take away from the driving experience . I don't want some computer reigning in on my fun . Not to mention to replace the tires on the aformentioned vehicles is a house payment or two . Besides , who the hell wants to ride around while sitting on a dead cow . I hear all the time about how "gay" the polka dot seats are , but what people don't seem to realize is those "gay" seats grip like hell . Ever hear about anyone sliding around in Yaris seats ?

The Yaris LB helped me get back to the fundamentals of driving . I don't need massive amounts of HP to have fun anymore . Sure , going 0 to 60 in 4 seconds is fun , but it is even more fun to make a 300 + HP car relent to a 103 HP car in the twisties . Even better yet , when the 300 + HP car finally catches up at the overlooks , demand to see your turbo kit . Yes its priceless to see the look on their faces when the figure out , "it really is only 103 HP "


I love my Yaris ( Coryn ) so much I am making a movie about it , with original soundtrack . So far I have about 120 hours of footage . Just so ya'll know , there will be REAL people playing REAL instruments on my soundtrack , and NO sampling . I am creative enough that I don't have to steal someboby else's material . My approach to the movie will in essence , be just like the Yaris , that is , bare bones , and HELLACIOUS FUN .

I couldn't agree more. There is not ONE thing I don't like about my car; and yes - it makes me giggle everytime I am taking the onramp to the freeway at 55-60 and the sports car behind me can't even cling to the road like I can and has to take it wider ... I didn't think that was possible. I love it :)

For $15k I got everything I could ever ask for in a car (well, I would have REALLY liked a sunroof, but the dealer told me they weren't available for the yaris becuase of the shape of the roof ... liar ... lol) I have all the fun little additions and I couldn't be happier.

That guy is just a loser and obviously pissed off he can't afford a Ferrari so is taking out on the Yaris. Way to "upgrade" to an Accent, assclown. :rolleyes:

[JBougie]

Well , I'm a boy and I love the Kitty . In more ways than one :biggrin:

lol - nice

[HTM Yaris]

I love my Kitties :cool:

[kngrsll]

did you stop aging DJ? damn...

btw, im going to need a seat upgrade! i was pivoting in it at roebling like crazy, i was sliding out of it!

[HTM Yaris]

Ken , the Kitty ( not Hello Kitty ) , has magical powers :biggrin:

You don't need a seat upgrade , knee pads will do just fine :smile: Besides going into a turn at 90 mph pulling 1.05 G's is an exception . A very good one I might add :biggrin:

Oh , I expect to see you at my Mountain Cruise on July 18 .........

[JBougie]

I love my Kitties :cool:

LOVE it (the pictures of the HK stuff)!! my HK obsession has gotten really bad ... I have appliances, alarm clocks, calendars, bubble gum dispensers, floor mats, my oil cap is HK, license plate covers, I have TONS of imported stuff Japan & Korea, jewelery, movies ... I can't even list everything. It's bad. Seriously. I want the HK guitar so bad - but I play the viola and bass so I just don't think that is going to work out lol

I draw the line at HK exhaust pipes and bubble gum pink cars though. Even that makes me sad for the car.

We just hijacked the hell out of this thread.

[MadMax]

Hijack over! :respekt:

madmax can i ask how you found his threads? lol

I am a big fan of CarTalk (Click and Clack), and I subscribe to their email list as well as download their podcast to listen to in my Yaris. I decided to search their site to see what they had on our beloved car and saw otterhere's comments. I recall them same BS on this forum, so I thought I would call them to everyone's attention. CarTalk is a huge forum for automotive enthusiasts, and I wouldn't want people on there to get the wrong impression of the Yaris!

When I was researching the car, I found a web site that had a couple of hundred reviews from actual Yaris owners (not magazine reviews, but people who spent their own money on the car). I remember that although people has some minor complaints, each and every one of them was happy overall with their Yaris. I recall telling my wife it had to be a good car, as I couldn't remember ever seeing so many reviews of a particular model where every one of them was positive.

I fully understand that the Yaris doesn't have some of the luxury items that you can find on more expensive cars, and I also can tell you I could have easily spent twice as much money on a car as I did on my Yaris; but I consider the Yaris' 'bang for the buck' to be one of the best values available today. Yes, there are cheaper cars, but the Yaris was exactly what I wanted in a commuter car and six months later I am still very pleased with my purchase.

So I have to lean over to open the passenger window or unlock the door; big shit, I have to do that in the Jeep anyway (when it has doors and windows on it!) so I am not missing anything in that regard except the cost of replacing those components if and when they break.

Overall, I guess I am a little defensive to criticism concerning the Yaris. I know it is not perfect, but it is a damn good car and I won't tolerate assclowns like otterhere spreading lies about it on other forums! :hitcomputer:

Cheers! M2

[TheRealEnth]

Well i think we are all biased, having owned the cars and loving it? But i mean.. whats not to love... his car might have sucked in handling... mine is like a dream now... and it isnt too slow.. If i can keep up with certain cars in the high 10's range then im fine. Yes it is a real bang for your buck car.... Great stuff that toyota offered for cheap... its dam brilliant =)... now if only google would release a car..

[yaris-me]

This must be where my (middle) age shows, LOL... All of you young kids are celebrating the purchase of your brand new Yari, and here I'm having buyer's remorse... Remind me again why I spent ALL this money on a brand new car because I just HAD to have the 2009 Yaris??? Oy, my aching bank account...

I'm not happy about having to pay something like a thou all together for all these little extras I really didn't want, and I think that's what's eating me...

Shame, Toyota, for "loading" these cars! But maybe I'll learn to love MP3...

:redface:,



Her first thread:

First, I'm a girl... And second, yes, I LOATHE that seat belt hanging from the roof!!! As for all the cupholders, interior room, etc., I'm a total minimalist who strives for the most efficient use of the smallest space possible, whether that's in my car, office, or home, so "roomy" is not a good thing for me...

I virtually never carry more than one passenger and would be driving a Smart today if it weren't for the fact that I currently do a lot of interstate driving...

Hence, the tiny, close-to-the-road Swift suited me perfectly and just seemed so much more "user-friendly," somehow. I agree it will be interesting to see how the Yaris holds up over the long haul. I can't see it lasting 10+ years??? But I'll keep an open mind...

Sorry to sound so negative; obviously there are things I like about the car (I agree it's cute as can be), or I wouldn't have chosen it over all the others available... I guess I just wish they hadn't discontinued and then altered the Swift (SRX is way too big and expensive now), but que sera, sera. So of all the subcompacts available (and I just did another cars.com search), Yaris still rules the "cheap, small car"...


A Middle age female that likes the Swift, what do you expect. She is a real expert in a piece of crap. She could never appreciate a fine car like the Yaris.

[kngrsll]

Ken , the Kitty ( not Hello Kitty ) , has magical powers :biggrin:

You don't need a seat upgrade , knee pads will do just fine :smile: Besides going into a turn at 90 mph pulling 1.05 G's is an exception . A very good one I might add :biggrin:

Oh , I expect to see you at my Mountain Cruise on July 18 .........

if im not on call, ill come up! call to remind me, cause i forget :( lol

[MadMax]

A Middle age female that likes the Swift, what do you expect. She is a real expert in a piece of crap. She could never appreciate a fine car like the Yaris.

:laughabove:

That's right, I forgot she was also the Swift freak! Now I know there is something definitely wrong with this person!

I am pretty sure this (http://www.cars.com/go/crp/research.jsp?section=consumerreviews&crpPage=consumerreviews.jsp&makeid=47&modelid=8242&year=2008&myid=&acode=&mode=&aff=national) is where I read all the positive owner reviews (it's been a while); but I do remember that for the vast majority, everyone was very happy with their cars. 22 pages of owner reviews, and most agree with us that it is an exceptionally great car! :headbang:

I wonder how many positive reviews the Suzuki Swift got? :barf:

Cheers! M2

[voodoo22]

@people who complain about being forced to purchase a car with too many options:

I will never understand people complaining about how many options they were forced to buy. You're not forced to buy anything. I've yet to purchase a vehicle which wasn't exactly what I wanted option wise. One time I waited 3 1/2 months to get a bare bones car. The dealer told me there were no models around like I wanted, so I asked him to order it bare bones and he did.

Don't blame the company for "making" you pay more for options when it's your lack of planning or impatience which played right into their hands.

[MPC Motorsports]

I got my 07 and 09 LB's with no power . Just the way I ordered them . I ordered my 07 in Nov. 05 and took delivery in June 06 . Hell it was three months before I (my son) figured out that I could plug in my Ipod Nano :smile:
I put my Ipod ( with Vera Bradley case ) next to the e-brake . It has a 3' retractable plug ( Toyota dealership $ 8.99 Scoche brand) .

In my opinion , the Yaris LB is the best car in the US market at ANY price . Don't get me wrong , The EVO X , Lotus 240 S , and GTR are all affordable , but they take away from the driving experience . I don't want some computer reigning in on my fun . Not to mention to replace the tires on the aformentioned vehicles is a house payment or two . Besides , who the hell wants to ride around while sitting on a dead cow . I hear all the time about how "gay" the polka dot seats are , but what people don't seem to realize is those "gay" seats grip like hell . Ever hear about anyone sliding around in Yaris seats ?

The Yaris LB helped me get back to the fundamentals of driving . I don't need massive amounts of HP to have fun anymore . Sure , going 0 to 60 in 4 seconds is fun , but it is even more fun to make a 300 + HP car relent to a 103 HP car in the twisties . Even better yet , when the 300 + HP car finally catches up at the overlooks , demand to see your turbo kit . Yes its priceless to see the look on their faces when the figure out , "it really is only 103 HP "


I love my Yaris ( Coryn ) so much I am making a movie about it , with original soundtrack . So far I have about 120 hours of footage . Just so ya'll know , there will be REAL people playing REAL instruments on my soundtrack , and NO sampling . I am creative enough that I don't have to steal someboby else's material . My approach to the movie will in essence , be just like the Yaris , that is , bare bones , and HELLACIOUS FUN .

I would extend your opinion to ALL Yaris!!! THE best car...Period!!!

[tomato]

I revived this thread as I noticed that our own resident dipshit Otterhere has been bashing our beloved Yaris over at CarTalk.com (Hatin' on the Yaris (http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2119609.page) and Still Hatin' on the Yaris (http://action.publicbroadcasting.net/cartalk/posts/list/2121591.page))!

Dear God, what a fucking whiner! What in the fuck were you expecting for $11K? And you really think you would be happier with a Hyundai Accent Hatch? You must be a real fucking idiot!

The next time you "bite the bullet," make sure it is leaving the barrel of a gun at maximum velocity!

I remember Otterhere. I joined the forum when her thread "happy with Yaris" was very active, and I responded, in good faith, thinking she just needed more time to adapt to the car. :iono:

I can understand that because I was having a bit of a hard time at the time myself, transitioning from driving an older Honda CRX 5 sp. (the Yaris clutch especially took me a *while* to figure out)

To be honest, I did, too, have buyer's remorse for a little while, but now, I count myself among the "overall-happy-with-the-car" crowd. Still wish for a bit more acceleration from time to time, so I guess I'll have to keep that in mind when chosing my next car, but right now the Yaris is doing just fine meeting most of my driving needs. :thumbsup:

[nemelek]

There is no perfect car. Between cars, trucks, and motorcycles I have owned 25 of them. Some were fast, some were slow. Some were loaded, some were plain. Some I had buyers remorse and some I wish that I never sold. Some were old some were new.

That being said, the Yaris was the best value for a new car that I have owned.

[Yaristrocrat]

My $11,600 bare-bones Yaris was worth every penny. I like the fact that it's so basic, because all I need it for is a 5 mile daily drive to work and occasional errand running. Why pay $400 a month for some sports car just to do that? Instead, I got a $200 a month payment and a unique car that looks great and is one of only a few in my entire town.

BONUS: I only have to fill up every two weeks. Immensely pleasing to the cheap side of me.