I NEED Boost... Opinions puh-lease

[sleey0]

Yeah, I'm really on the fence when it comes to tuning... I have only one tuning shop that is near me, and I'm really not crazy about the guy from the three conversations we've had. I wouldn't mind learning some tuning, but am worried that with my inexperience and lack of dyno that I may cause damage... Then again, I did just throw a turbocharger in my car with no mechanical expertise so.. :iono:

I'm definitely leaning towards doing it myself... I'd like to think I get the basics of AFRs and the effect of adding/removing fuel. With a wideband, how hard could it be?

Do you plan on changing out any internal engine components?

I am just curious if you turbo guys are going to build your motors or just stay with a conservative boost. Not sure our tiny little motors are built for the long-haul when increasing its demands so much with boost.

[pimp my yaris]

Do you plan on changing out any internal engine components?

I am just curious if you turbo guys are going to build your motors or just stay with a conservative boost. Not sure our tiny little motors are built for the long-haul when increasing its demands so much with boost.

I was already pricing out pistons rods and rings. I am thinking mabe next spring or summer. This looks like about the easiest engine pull possible. I would love to be pushing 15psi and get this thing really turning heads!:bellyroll:

[sleey0]

I was already pricing out pistons rods and rings. I am thinking mabe next spring or summer. This looks like about the easiest engine pull possible. I would love to be pushing 15psi and get this thing really turning heads!:bellyroll:

Do you think our cars could run ok stock @ 12psi with a not-too-agressive tune?

[why?]

Yeah, I'm really on the fence when it comes to tuning... I have only one tuning shop that is near me, and I'm really not crazy about the guy from the three conversations we've had. I wouldn't mind learning some tuning, but am worried that with my inexperience and lack of dyno that I may cause damage... Then again, I did just throw a turbocharger in my car with no mechanical expertise so.. :iono:

I'm definitely leaning towards doing it myself... I'd like to think I get the basics of AFRs and the effect of adding/removing fuel. With a wideband, how hard could it be?

Dude, give Dezod a call, they are not too far, and he mentioned he be willing to give someone a deal.

Yes this unit works. I'd be willing to cut one user a deal and help with tuning to provide further proof to the community that it works. Serious people only please.....
Dezod's thread. (http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=29686&page=3)

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Do you plan on changing out any internal engine components?

I honestly don't know yet. If I did it wouldn't be for awhile.

Also very doubtful that a good tune will let this engine run on 12 psi. There's really no proof that it can't, so you could be the guinea pig. :tongue:

Anyways, I've decided I'll be doing my own tuning. I just ordered an AEM UEGO wideband and am going to do some more reading. cdydjded, I'll definitely be in touch... I'm hoping you can help me with the fuel trims for the most part, as that seems to be the most difficult.

Dude, give Dezod a call, they are not too far, and he mentioned he be willing to give someone a deal.

Yeah, exactly what I thought, but I'm using an FIC. I have to admit, it is slightly tempting to take the deal and get some REAL engine management...

[sleey0]

The jimze sc kit puts out 1 bar, as far as i can tell.

Therefore our cars should be ok at 12 psi. As long as the tune isnt crazy aggressive and richens out the afr.

[Nexus1155]

The jimze sc kit puts out 1 bar, as far as i can tell.

Therefore our cars should be ok at 12 psi. As long as the tune isnt crazy aggressive and richens out the afr.

Stop your reasoning right there. 12psi on one thing is not 12psi on another depending on how much air it pumps out. A tune cannot be "aggressive or subtle" The fuel is tuned to 11.* AFR and the ignition is dialed in to where there is no knock.

In terms of aggresiveness it relates to how much pressure you are pumping in there. Say on this engine 6psi on his turbo kit is streetable. you can get away with 8psi on a good tune, but on these internals and that turbo, you would be wise to not try to push more than that.

[sleey0]

Stop your reasoning right there. 12psi on one thing is not 12psi on another depending on how much air it pumps out. A tune cannot be "aggressive or subtle" The fuel is tuned to 11.* AFR and the ignition is dialed in to where there is no knock.

In terms of aggresiveness it relates to how much pressure you are pumping in there. Say on this engine 6psi on his turbo kit is streetable. you can get away with 8psi on a good tune, but on these internals and that turbo, you would be wise to not try to push more than that.

I see, and thank you. I shouldn't be comparing psi from the turbo to a sc.

See, you guys can hit me with the noob hammer once in a while. lol

Just wondering about that jimze blower and how much more it will put out and stress our engines.

[Nexus1155]

No, its not that. I just don't want to see anyone blowing up their engines from thinking that. If you didn't know, somewhere down the line it may have happened to you if you didn't have the proper info. I'd have to see the flow charts for the supercharger to compare to anything, but its hard to judge without testing it out and seeing how much you can push it.

I'm still looking around for a cheap G60 supercharger in good condition or an M45, or a GT25. I keep losing the damn ebay auctions

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yeah don't feel bad, you gotta learn somehow... A couple months ago I didn't even know what a turbocharger or surpercharger was. :biggrin:

Interesting aside, and a testament to the learning power of our ECUs. For the first week and a half my narrowband signal has averaged about .22. As of the last couple days, it has actually risen to average out at about .38. Not too informative, but clearly the ECU has gotten better at running stoich conditions, even with forced induction in the mix. Tuning is obviously still needed though.

[sleey0]

So you have no fuel management right now aside from the stock ecu and only have a narrowband?

Even I know that is risky! Lol

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yep :rolleyes:

I was originally expecting to get tuned before doing this much driving, but complications extended the install and then school started so I NEED my car. Not to mention my potential tuner gave off vibes of being a total ass. I rarely push 5 psi though, so I'm definitely trying to play it safe. There will be plenty of time to blow people away once tuning is done. :burnrubber:

[sleey0]

All i know is that it must be extremely difficult to have a turbo and not drive like u have one.

I dont think i could do it lol. More power to ya!

I must say i have really enjoyed this thread and i wish u nothing but the best!

Oh, and once you learn the FIC, you will be getting pm's from me, bro! I am planning on using it with my sc setup in the next couple of months.

[why?]

I see, and thank you. I shouldn't be comparing psi from the turbo to a sc.

See, you guys can hit me with the noob hammer once in a while. lol

Just wondering about that jimze blower and how much more it will put out and stress our engines.

Just want to make sure this is 100% clear. You can't even compare boost numbers from different turbo's, because different a/r's, compressor sizes, etc, can all make it different.

[sleey0]

Yes, I understand.

My question was supposed to be in general, ie "can our engines run @ 12psi safely without building the motor".

That was my question. :D

[cali yaris]

^ probably not for very long.

[Nexus1155]

:frown::frown::frown::frown::brokenheart::brokenhe art::brokenheart::brokenheart:

Look at it this way, whats the power output of a GT25 @ 12psi compared to a GT35. The difference is astronomical.

[sleey0]

Nevermind....

[Nexus1155]

nononono be lucky i am not tamago and i won't yell at you and i'll try not to go too in depth. I am going to show you what I mean. You are not allowed to build a turbo kit until you understand this. Basic I am sure you know, air + fuel + spark makes combustion and power. Doing something to allow air to flow into the engine more = more air+more fuel+spark = more power. Now if you take a turbo/supercharger and start forcing more air into the engine you will get alot more power.

http://www.atpturbo.com/root/maps/images/gt28rsturbine.gif

Pretty much identical turbo other than the area/radius of the housings. If you follow any pressure ratio on that given map you will see the larger housing will always be pushing more air through the engine.

Depending on if you want it for low end boost or more high end, something even in the same family of turbos can be dangerous to your engine if you do not size it properly even a GT25 and you end up cranking up the pressure one day by a little bit your engine might blow. Even though these engines ae only like $50 a pop.

[why?]

well maybe $500 a pop, but still dirt cheap engine wise.

[Nexus1155]

SEE $350 DELIVERED and thats a pretty good condition one as far as i can tell. Can't beat that

[cali yaris]

50... no.... 500...no....... 350....... BINGO

LOL

[Freedan]

350 for an engine!? Wow. :eek:

Might have to visit the local junkyard and find an engine that I can tinker with if it's that cheap.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Build update...

Been having problems getting the car to run properly with the FIC hooked up after I wired up the cam and crank wires. Turns out I had to drop the mago- wires on each, then just TAP C20-121 with both magi- wires. Why I had to do this when others didn't... I dunno.

Anyways, I first threw in a map pimp my yaris gave me just to see if my AFR would respond correctly, and possibly use as a base map for tuning. For whatever reason, nothing happened. Watching my wideband, the AFR continues to hold around 14.7 with no notable changes. I drove around a bit and pushed the engine to make sure. I'm going to do some logging and see if I can figure it out.

Was wondering what injector response time I should be running. Brian, Carlos, if you could chime in that'd be great.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Alright so tuning... I just don't understand how changing values on the fuel map is honestly going to work. By doing that I'm setting up the STFT and, therefore, the LTFT to be wayyyy off... I feel like the O2 sensors need to be manipulated to get an accurate and reliable tune. Also - while driving it seems like they just lean the car right back out to 14.7 even when additional fuel is being added. This is due to closed loop though, right? When I change values during idle I can watch the wideband go richer, then quickly get corrected back to about 15. So I'm assuming I need to leave everything out of boost untouched, then figure out a way to force the car into open loop when I'm boosting. Then I can adjust fuel without having the O2 sensors interfering, right?

So it's either force the car into open loop at around 15 PSIA, or manipulate the O2 so closed loop is forcing a richer AFR than 14.7. I feel like the latter is what I have to do, because the car begins boosting while in closed loop.

UGH. :rolleyes:

[pimp my yaris]

Your thinking is spot on. But you can do this with the maf. clamp when in the boost. OK first, when in closed loop [ie: normal driving] Your AFR will always be 14.5 to 15:1. This is actually good as it maintains low emmisions and good gas mileage. What we want is to clamp the MAF. at the correct voltage so when in the boost the computer will stop adding fuel and the FIC takes over. I still need to get this MAF max voltage on a normally aspirated Yaris. Also the most important AFR reading U need is when under heavy exceleration [IE: foot to the floor]. This is when Im trying to get that 12:1 zone AFR. The factory ECU flips to open loop at around 80% load or higher. Under that U should see 14.5 to 15:1 on the wideband. Their is no point to make the FIC control fueling all the time unless we are road racing or only driving a track car. I have already altered the map a little to help keep fuel trims more inline. What is your AFR when wide open and under boost. I know its difficult to answer but it should not go leaner then 13:1. Also in the map I gave you I clamped the map at 3.1 volts when in the boost and at above 3800rpm, if I remember correctly. Its still a work in progress for me too. I am happy I dont have any excessive rich or lean trouble codes.

[1.5ty]

Your spot on with everything but way are you looking for a a/f of 12.1 I know how to use aem standalone but not fic and when I tune with that with a boosted car max power falls around 11.2-11.5 a/f

[pimp my yaris]

This is the first car I have worked on tuning. The factory (non boosted) open loop AFR was 12:1 to 12.5 to 1. I just tryed to keep it in that range. I dont have a dyno. Everyone here seems to have a different opinion on the best AFR range to run.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Ok good I was wondering how you were running something other than 14.7 under closed loop but you're not. I took your map and made a couple changes according to where my car enters boost, and I also moved the MAF clamp to a lower RPM and changed it to 2.9 (my max value out of boost approximately).

The problem I was having yesterday was that I was entering boost and was still stuck around a 14.7 AFR. Even by 5 PSI I wasn't getting any richer. I'm not sure why... I'll watch closed/open loop more closely today and see where it switches. I may have actually been using a map yesterday that didn't have a MAF clamp... can't remember. That could be the issue.

AFRs confuse the hell out of me because there's a lot of conflicting information online... I was under the impression I needed an 11.5ish AFR at all times on an FI engine, but that's only really needed during boosting I reckon?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Well I had a crummy last two days lol. Car died because of battery terminal corrosion, then I went to go replace a coolant adapter and had the wrong one. Good thing is that I finally know the exact size thread I need so I can stop battling this stupid tiny leak.

Anyways, I've been toying with the FIC the last couple days and setup a MAF map. I put it in voltage mode and am using the MAF as the reference column. I then set all the rows to mirror the incoming MAF voltage. This way, MAF in = MAF out. However, at 2100 RPM and 2.81 volts, I've clamped everything beyond those values at 2.9V. This appeared to be the max N/A voltage reading I was obtaining. Not sure if this will work, as I haven't had time to try it yet.

Brian - if this works we won't need a MAF map. In fact I don't see why this wouldn't work. Anyhoo, I started throwing a MAF map together in case this fails, but it's been a real PITA so far...

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Alright.. Would like to talk about open loop. Hopefully some of you here will have some info for me.

I've yet to see my car enter open loop unless I am letting off the throttle entirely. How hard do you need to be pushing a car to enter open boost, WOT? Because I do my driving in the 1k-3.5k range and rarely hit WOT. Is there some sort of difference between a manual and automatic that I don't know about?

[1.5ty]

Open loop and close loop it controlled by temp when you start the car in the morning when it's cold that's what they call open loop after it's warm and that's what they call closed loop

[1.5ty]

To get full boosted it's all about the turbo you have and your setup

[Bluevitz-rs]

It's simply, in one situation the ecu is using pre-determained values to operate the engine and ignores the sensors. The other it's using the sensor readings.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

To get full boosted it's all about the turbo you have and your setup

Agreed, and by 7 PSI of boost my car still maintains closed loop. I know this because I have a scan gauge.

I need more information on this, because it's going to ultimately determine how I go about tuning.

EDIT: And allow me to clarify, I understand what the two are. But I'm told that modern cars enter open loop under heavy acceleration, and this is where I need to tune with the FIC, but I've yet to see it happen.

[1.5ty]

There is two ways to tune under wot on a dyno or street it really dosnt mater about open or closed loop

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Hopefully I'm not speaking too soon, but it would appear that my P0101 has gone away.

Ever since I cleaned the corrosion off my battery terminal, it's yet to come back. I also have completed enough driving cycles to determine whether or not there's any pending codes so... :w00t:

[eTiMaGo]

From OBD datalogging that PK did some time ago, it seems the main condition for entering open loop is 75% signal from the throttle position sensor. So, put the pedal to the metal!

[sleey0]

Or, maybe CTSCOTT can design something to trick the ECU to think it is always in openloop.

Then we would have 100" control of out cars/tuning withought standalone!

GREAT idea, now?

[eTiMaGo]

There is *potentially* such a trick, the other time the car is in open loop mode is when it's warming up. I've heard of tuners in Puerto Rico doing this, but you could put a resistor in line with the water temperature sensor to fool the ECU into thinking the car is *never* warm, hence it would stay in this warmup mode as long as you wanted. BUT, this is really a pretty dirty hack, I personally have no idea what other effects it may have...

[sleey0]

^^

Send this to ctscot and lets here his answer!!
Can't wait!

Then the car will REALLY be tunable w00t w00t!

[Focus_Sh1ft]

From OBD datalogging that PK did some time ago, it seems the main condition for entering open loop is 75% signal from the throttle position sensor. So, put the pedal to the metal!

THANK YOU. :bow:

This is the information I needed.

There is *potentially* such a trick, the other time the car is in open loop mode is when it's warming up. I've heard of tuners in Puerto Rico doing this, but you could put a resistor in line with the water temperature sensor to fool the ECU into thinking the car is *never* warm, hence it would stay in this warmup mode as long as you wanted. BUT, this is really a pretty dirty hack, I personally have no idea what other effects it may have...

I'm not feelin this lol. This is very iffy, and I feel like it would do more harm then good. Plus, fuel economy would blow if the car is constantly in open loop.

So I'm pretty baffled at this point though. What do I even need to tune? If I don't push the car hard enough to be entering open loop, then that's not really an issue... Afterall, the car runs fine at stoich.

[eTiMaGo]

but, where's the fun in driving a turbo'ed car sensibly all the time? :biggrin:

You *could* use a variable potentiometer, or switches, to change the water temp tweaking on the fly, when needed.

As for what you need to tune in open loop, there are loads of options out there, personally I would want to get my hands on an inexpensive apexi S-AFC and a wideband O2 gauge to see just how effective this kind of tweaking can be, even without boost (the Yaris does seem to generally run quite rich in open loop mode, might be just mine, but there's certainly some power to be gained by leaning things out at high RPMs)

[cali yaris]

You can pull the second O2 sensor, forcing a constant CEL, then tune the car. That is what ZPI did.

It's a really lame approach, though.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

You can pull the second O2 sensor, forcing a constant CEL, then tune the car. That is what ZPI did.

It's a really lame approach, though.

Bit lame, but better and probably safer than the water temp idea.

But back to my original question, is tuning closed loop even necessary? Because it's going to be a PITA...

Also - I hardly drive "sensibly" lol. But I just don't get it... If I'm not driving hard enough to enter open loop, then wouldn't I be best off just continuing to run stoich? Or is the hotter intake air too dangerous to run at 14.7 at all times? I DONT UNDERSTAND LOL.

[Bluevitz-rs]

The water temp trick will set a code eventually anyways. My parents Matrix set this code on it's own because the thermostat went bad and the car wasn't warming up fast enough. It took a long time to through the code though, as we found it wasn't heating up very quickly for a long time. PS it's only a '03 so I'm sure the Yaris has an even smarter ECU.

[cali yaris]

if you are in boost AT ALL, you don't want to be at 14.7. You should be able to make boost without going WOT.

Clear?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

if you are in boost AT ALL, you don't want to be at 14.7. You should be able to make boost without going WOT.

Clear?

Ok, this is what I thought originally.

So this means I do need to tune closed loop... So my options are what I originally stated - force the car into open loop or manipulate the O2 sensors. I guess I don't have much of a choice but to start fooling around with the O2 sensors. :iono:

[1.5ty]

Hey focus this is what you need to do not trying to be an ass here but you should take the car to a pro but if you don't want to here are a few thing to remember about tuning 1st it's always easier with two people but not needed ok when you start tuning you want to tune a no load meaning idle like I said before your looking for a a/f of 11:2 to 11:5 I'm not trying to tell you anything wrong if you take Otto a tuner that's what there going to look for so at idle set it around 11:5 after you get that then start with a light load don't get in to boost this is where two people come in hand as your driving cool at your gauges and the pc when you see your starting to leave the sweet zone of 11:2/11:5 then stop make a few changes and start again after you get that set the keep giving it more of a load and more till you have ran put on rpms to play with but always stay in that sweet zone of 11:2/11:5 there is no need to play with the 02 other then with the fic everything can be done with the pc as soon I get my oil leak under controll I well start tuning with my fic and when I'm done I'll give you a full tune of 8psi or what ever psi your running but like I said there is no need to play with the 02 other then using the pc


And for those that think I wrong go ask any pro tuner and the will tell you everything I just said I have tuned using aem before so I know what I'm talking about

[1.5ty]

Sorry about my spelling I'm using my iPad and it mess-up some of the words

[1.5ty]

Yep I haven't done this for the last 3yr I haven't tuned anything with more power than a yairs so thing what ya want and ill do as I've done ill quit tryin to help more power to ya camelll

[cali yaris]

^ Sorry but you WERE incorrect on several of your points. Go ahead and "do as you've done", or stick around and learn something.

We each make our own choices, and you can make yours for you car, but posting totally incorrect information will rightfully get challenged.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Guys, thanks so much for the input.

1.5ty, I appreciate your help but I know for a fact that technique is not going to fly with this car. I've added fuel with the FIC while idling and watched the AFR drop to 14- on my wideband then get immediately corrected. Open loop and closed loop are a big deal here.

Camelll, thanks so much bro. I've been wondering how Blitz handled this. Unfortunately, it gives me no more information than I already have. :frown:

What I find interesting is that you're boosting for awhile while in closed loop, correct? About what PSI do you reach before open loop kicks in in your case? The fact that you've been running two years successfully while boosting in closed loop really leads me to question how unsafe 14.7 is under light boost... Yes, I know I'm comparing two completely different things, but boost is boost - hot compressed air being forced into the manifold. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.

[cali yaris]

^ open loop doesn't kick in at a psi. It kicks in when the ECU senses a certain load, 75% throttle in our case, and maybe under some other conditions, I don't know.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

^ open loop doesn't kick in at a psi. It kicks in when the ECU senses a certain load, 75% throttle in our case, and maybe under some other conditions, I don't know.

Right, but wouldn't there be some sort of a trend where open loop usually kicks in? Or can you just floor it, be outside of boost still, and throw the car into open loop?

...Am I just not driving my car hard enough? lol :confused: :biggrin:

[eTiMaGo]

we actually brainstormed and did some research about this a few years back, if you wanna take the time to sift through it:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=15350
http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=21431

Pay close attention to the excel files linked, PK did some good data logging, and yes, no matter what your car is doing, what gear you're in, mash the throttle past the 75% signal and it'll go open loop.

In my mind, the ideal "simple" setup around open and closed loop would be what I call the Jekyll and Hyde approach. A boost controller set up for very gentle boost (maybe 5psi) for use during closed loop operation, and higher boost for open loop, and this would be triggered by the throttle position sensor. Add to that a piggyback that can also have different profiles based on throttle input (such as the apexi SAFC mentioned in the second link above), so that it'll let the ECU do its thing in closed loop, but then mess with things once the throttle goes past 75%.

So, driving "normally", you get the benefit of added power without reaching the limits of the engine/ECU, but when you put your foot down, then you get extra boost, and the piggyback to provide more appropriate fuelling, to unleash the beast within :wink:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Focus shift are you not seeing open loop at all? Do you have a manual or automatic?

I have an automatic and am not seeing open loop at all (as per Scangauge). The only time I enter open loop is early idling, and taking my foot off the throttle entirely.

Also - the reason I feel stoich may actually be alright is because there is no detonation, and IAT is always close to the ambient outside temp...

eTiMaGo, currently reading through those threads, but I had a thought. Does the ECU need to pass ALL the parameters to enter open loop? Because if not, there is probably a MAF voltage value whereby the ECU determines open loop is needed. If that's the case, a MAF clamp can be set up on the FIC at that value from where boost kicks in.

^^^ I feel the above may be possible due to the manner in which the Blitz fuel controller is hooked up, but 75% throttle might still be needed...

[Bluevitz-rs]

...and IAT is always close to the ambient outside temp...



Just remember, that reading is BEFORE the turbo. The air going into the engine is actually a lot hotter.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

^ Yeah sorry, disregard that. :tongue:

Looking at those excel sheets, it's pretty aparent 75% throttle plays a large role in changing to open loop. MAF reading seems to be pretty irrelevant, so my previous idea is (most likely) not going to work.

However, what if we mapped the TPS to one of the analog signals of the FIC? Then, could we possibly manipulate that signal to 75%? That would force open loop... This is probably way oversimplified and I'm sure there would be multiple other issues including a CEL.

eTiMaGo, we're going to figure this out this time around. I need my car running safely, and that turbo ain't coming out. :biggrin:

[cali yaris]

we're going to figure this out this time around. I need my car running safely, and that turbo ain't coming out.

That's the spirit :clap:

[eTiMaGo]

However, what if we mapped the TPS to one of the analog signals of the FIC? Then, could we possibly manipulate that signal to 75%? That would force open loop... This is probably way oversimplified and I'm sure there would be multiple other issues including a CEL.


Sounds like quite the recipe for unintended acceleration!!!


eTiMaGo, we're going to figure this out this time around. I need my car running safely, and that turbo ain't coming out. :biggrin:

sir yes sir! but keep in mind all I can offer is theoretical, we need all the experience amassed over the past few years from our 1NZ gurus :smile:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Sounds like quite the recipe for unintended acceleration!!!

sir yes sir! but keep in mind all I can offer is theoretical, we need all the experience amassed over the past few years from our 1NZ gurus :smile:

Agreed, I'm hoping others with some knowledge will chime in with ideas. I'm really hoping to get this working with the FIC, and I know we can do it...

Regarding the unintended acceleration, I don't think that would happen. The actual throttle plate would be at less than 75%, but the ECU would think it's time for open loop and give us fueling control. We could clamp the MAF if necessary as well.

But I can see what you're saying... If the ECU sees an open throttle, it would increase the engine speed right? I need to look at the service manuals a bit more...

When I get the chance, the first thing I'm doing is fooling around with the O2 sensors.

[Bluevitz-rs]

I don't think you can do that with TBW. If the ECU sees more than what's input and the output of the throttle plate doesn't match, it'll go into failsafe.

[eTiMaGo]

another (cheaper) piece of electronics to fiddle around with the MAF signal in open loop, the HKS AFR (Air Fuel Regulator). Very simple little box with a dial for the degree of adjustment of the MAF signal (leaner or richer). Nowhere as precise as a proper piggyback, as there is no RPM-specific or throttle-specific arrangement, but it could work well to get an *overall* richer or leaner fuel mix while in open loop, similar effect to getting bigger injectors, I suppose!

[Focus_Sh1ft]

No updates on tuning unfortunately, haven't had time to deal with it yet. However, I did redo my oil pan as per Garm's observation about the removable stems. No leaks from it now :thumbup:

Unbelievably though, I'm now back to dealing with coolant leaks. I don't know what the hell I'm doing wrong. I switched to M12 adapters that fit on the turbo VERY snug, but yet they still leak! I was so pissed when I noticed this yesterday, because I really don't know where to go from here. I'm thinking about just yanking water cooling :iono:

The only thought I had was that the hole on the adapters is too small and is creating a huge pressure buildup, which causes the coolant to back out through the threads. I have some pictures, but they suck. Basically, the diameter of the holes is about half of the lines I'm using. The adapters were really meant to be used for getting a pressure reading for a gauge. What do you guys think?

This is all getting incredibly frustrating... I just don't have time to deal with this BS over and over again with my classes. Oh, and I'm not even going to begin on how impossible it was to get those stems off. Unless you have an M4 female torx socket, you're practically SOL.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Oh yeah also - read somewhere (MI?) that a 10% underdrive pulley decreases max boost obtainable or something?

Explain?

[eTiMaGo]

only for a supercharger, which is belt-driven ;)

[cali yaris]

underdrive pulley makes the supercharger pulley turn more slowly, DEcreasing boost.

no worries for you.

just YANK the water cooling and add it later. Just means you have to idle the car when you park it for now. Minimize your frustration!

[sleey0]

So if u yank the water cooling won't it overheat?

[why?]

So if u yank the water cooling won't it overheat?

it is also oil cooled, the water cooling was just a backup so you could abuse the turbo and not worry.

[Parmas]

As I was reading the last 2 pages it seems like there is a big ? on O2 Control, Open/ Closed loop etc...

Since now I am studying into standalone ecu management systems all this big questions aren't a taboo for me anymore.

The only issue with the information I am going to mention is that eventually I don't know for sure if the Toyota Stock Ecu works exactly the same but at least you can have something to refer on man :smile:

Below is a tab of information on my Platinum Sport ecu for my wideband. All settings are critical to have a good working engine at all conditions :


1. There are two types, Wideband and Narrowband. Usually wideband sensors are able to adjust fuel at higher rpm than narrow band


2. Target Voltage

- Only valid for Narrowband sensors. This is the sensor voltage that the ECU will try to target. This should be between the two voltages that the sensor outputs for below stoichiometric and above stoichiometric. Setting this target too close to either of these voltages may lead the controller to not function.

3. Idle Target Voltage

- Only valid for Narrowband sensors. This is usually set slightly higher than the above target voltage to help richen the idle mixtures to aid in idle smoothness.

4. Maximum Increase

- Maximum percentage increase in fuel that is allowed by the O2 controller. (Max 25%).

5. Maximum Decrease

- Maximum percentage decrease in fuel that is allowed by the O2 controller. (Max 25%).

6. Proportional Control

- This value alters the gain or sensitivity of the controller. The Proportional Control affect the sensitvity of the short term control.

7. Integral Control

- This value alters the gain or sensitivity of the controller. The Integral Control affect the sensitivity of the long term trim.

8. Sample Rate

- The rate at which the controller will read the O2 sensor and calculate the correction when above the idle RPM. If this is set too fast, the controller will over-react and a very unstable control will result. If this is set too slow, then the O2 controller will be slow to move towards its target and may not achieve the slight oscillations that are desirable.

9. Idle Sample Rate

- The rate at which the controller will read the O2 sensor and calculate the correction when below the idle RPM. If this is set too fast, the controller will over-react and a very unstable control will result. If this is set too slow, then the O2 controller will be slow to move towards its target and may not achieve the slight oscillations that are desirable.

10. Post Start Delay

- A cold O2 sensor voltage reading is always low. Set this value so that the sensor has enough time to reach operating temperature.

11. Delay Till Control

- This setting will delay when the closed loop O2 control will start when all the conditions are met. This helps the controller stop cutting in and out when on the border of one of the conditions that need to be satisfied.

12. Lower RPM

- The minimum RPM at which O2 control will happen. If this value is greater than this value then O2 control at idle will be disabled.

13. Idle RPM

- When the engine speed is below this value and there is zero throttle then the O2 Target Idle Voltage is used. To disable the use of this parameter then set it lower than the Low RPM value.

14. Upper RPM

- The maximum RPM at which O2 control will happen. Having O2 control off at RPM may be desirable if you are running a narrow band sensor.

15. Operating Temperature

- O2 control will only work above this coolant temperature.

16. Limit Select

- Choose if TPS or MAP sensor or Both will disable O2 control. If set to Both, then only one condition has to fail for O2 control to be disabled.

17. MAP Limit

- If load select is MAP or both, any MAP senor reading above this value disables O2 control.

18. Throttle Limit

- If load select is TPS or both, any throttle position above this percentage disables O2 control

Regarding open/closed loop situation. If one of these settings are above or below limits the system begins to get reference on a fuel basemap set by a tuner and that would be open loop. If all is within range then you are closed loop.

As I said, Toyota could have different, less or more settings in their own ecu so just keep this info just for your reference on not a 100% info yours works exactly with the same setup.

Cheers

[cali yaris]

There are two types, Wideband and Narrowband. Usually wideband sensors are able to adjust fuel at higher rpm than narrow band

Sensors don't adjust anything? :iono:

[eTiMaGo]

I think he meant "detect", in terms of giving more accurate information in order to make adjustments :)

[cali yaris]

Wideband is faster sampling for one thing, therefore more responsive on the gauge. Maybe he meant that. :wink:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Here's some updates for anyone wondering.

I'm now 100% sure the size of the adapters needed for water cooling are M12x1.25. I'm currently running M12x1.0 with some high temp silicone sealant and I guess it's working.

Believe it or not, but after nearly two weeks of no CELs, P0101 has come back. I've cleared it and it continues to return. Confusing? Yes.

I bought a used AEM meth kit for $180 shipped. :thumbsup:
It'll be sitting around for a couple months, but I had money in paypal I needed to spend and that was a decent deal.

This week, I'll be continuing to work with the FIC. The first thing I'm going to do is get the O2 wire hooked up and see how much I can manipulate the signal before I start getting CELs. I've thought about it, and that + a MAF clamp could very well work to get a decent AFR in closed loop.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Worked on the FIC today with nothing but negative results lol. I've decided to wait and tune once I get my meth kit hooked up (which is on its way :thumbup:), but I need to figure out how I'm doing it still.

But back to the FIC. Obviously, the best case scenario as I mentioned is to get the O2 manipulated. So I hooked up the O21+ wire today (tap AFR sensor signal wire C20-47), and had nothing but problems.

As per AEM guides I tried no resistor, then resistors (in-line, before the tap location). I tried 1k, 5.5k, 11.2k and got nothing but bad results. The car would start, but it would idle very rough. Looking at my scangauge I noticed a NEGATIVE ignition timing, but the car still was able to enter closed loop. Then it started massively richening the mix until the car just stunk of gasoline (maxed at 10 on my UEGO). The resistor value didn't change the results.

The jumper harness still allows the car to run just fine, so the FIC is clearly at fault in some way. Also, I didn't get any codes... Whose got some bright ideas? :biggrin:

[pimp my yaris]

Wish I could help. I removed the top O2 sensor and richened the mixture buy 15% whenever out of boost. And obviously progressively more when in the boost. The car is runing sweet right now with no bumps or jerks and no dying at idle. Also I am in the 11-13:1 range whenever im driving in or out of boost. The car runs so much smoother now. Although I have to deal with check engine light.
I tryed to remove the bulb but their is no bulb. Its a LED soldered on a circuit board. Also that dam annoying seat belt chime is mounted on the back side of the same circuit board.
I did remove the chime but for now I left the LED connected. The light does not bother me. I am just tired of answering questions from people riding in my car. I am also thinking of recirculating those blow off gasses. The car will still dye out sometimes if you let off the gas at full boost and hold the clutch in.

[Bluevitz-rs]

I am also thinking of recirculating those blow off gasses. The car will still dye out sometimes if you let off the gas at full boost and hold the clutch in.

You probably have a huge flame througher out the tail pipe too LOL :bellyroll:

[cali yaris]

a little square of black electrical tape, well placed on the gauge cluster will "fix" your CEL, and can be reverted anytime.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I tryed to remove the bulb but their is no bulb. Its a LED soldered on a circuit board. Also that dam annoying seat belt chime is mounted on the back side of the same circuit board.

Couldn't you just cut the trace that powers the bulb?

I'm going to try switching firmwares on the FIC today and see if that does anything...

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Hey guys...

Why the hell is there oil in my intercooler? lol

It's not a lot, and it seems like it's been there for awhile. Could it be from when my return was clogged?

[Bluevitz-rs]

Yeah, either you had blow by from the turbo, or the seals are gone. Clean it up and if it comes back you'll know the seals are done in the turbo. If it stays clean, then it was just that one time.

[cali yaris]

How to clean it up? and he has to clean the piping too right?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

It was pooling in the intercooler, the pipes from what I could tell had an oily feel to them but eh. I think it was just the one time, otherwise I would have at least noticed I was losing a large amount of oil...

[Focus_Sh1ft]

If your return was clogged oil from the center housing has only 2 places to go, out the compressor side of the turbo (cold side) or the turbine side (hot side). Apparently it chose the compressor side. Now that is of course if nothing is mechanically wrong with the turbo itself...

Actually at the time, it chose both lol. When I fixed the clog I immediately noticed it stopped seeping out the turbo flange, so I figured the seals were good. I would like to think if it was a problem that I would have noticed I've been burning oil, which I haven't.

Anyone have anything to say regarding the FIC?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Meth kit will be here shortly...

I've been digging in and trying to understand fully how this will give me improved performance, and realize advancing timing is PROBABLY going to be a big deal. I may be speaking too soon, but I have my doubts. I hate to have to do this, but I'm probably going to sell my FIC and grab an Emanage Ultimate. It looks to be the only way I'm going to get the most out of my setup.

If anyone is interested, I'm currently planning on selling my FIC (just the box, no harness) for $150.

[Yoda]

Meth kit will be here shortly...

I've been digging in and trying to understand fully how this will give me improved performance, and realize advancing timing is PROBABLY going to be a big deal. I may be speaking too soon, but I have my doubts. I hate to have to do this, but I'm probably going to sell my FIC and grab an Emanage Ultimate. It looks to be the only way I'm going to get the most out of my setup.

If anyone is interested, I'm currently planning on selling my FIC (just the box, no harness) for $150.

Wo man sorry to hear about you selling it. Did you try taking your car to a tuner to see if they could get more? Would hate to see u throw away your money

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Advanced timing & boost is a major no no, Whay are you going to sell the FIC?

Running methanol injection allows for advancing timing, doesn't it? There's more power to be had there, and the FIC only retards it.

[Bluevitz-rs]

If I'm not mistaken, the Emanage Ultimate can only retard timing as well. So you won't be any better off. Just stick with the FIC and save your money.

[xbgod]

E-manage is crap...Complete shit. You shouldn't use it even if it came wraped in 50.00 dollar bills. It's cheap electronics in pretty box.

AEM/FIC alot better. Keep your AEM.

#1 I don't see why when you guys have real issues you don't call and talk to someone at AEM? Intead you rely on someone here to have a magic answer. AEM has great techs and will guide you through anything you need. They will even put you in contact with a real tunner closest to your house. That unit is quite capable of alot of things. Call and talk to the horses mouth.

#2 Meth will allow you to retard timming. That is why most people use it, to get more boost without detonation. It's like running higher grade fuel for cheap. And fellas don't use Heet and window wash fluid just buy some M1 methanol from a VP dealer. Quit being so damn cheap. It cost about 40.00 for 5 Gal. then mix it 50/50. This is your motor not a shift knob or some other gay bolt on part.

XBG

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Hmm, I clearly have this all mixed up. I like your idea XBG, I might try to find a tuner to talk to to get some real opinions.

I'm wondering if there's even any point to running meth if all I'm adjusting is AFRs then?

[cali yaris]

AEM has great techs and will guide you through anything you need.

Not in my experience. Getting good help from them is about as easy as pulling teeth.

[xbgod]

Yes, sometimes they can be a bare to deal with. But I find in most cases it's all about approach. But like any company theres good days and bad days. For me I've had no issues dealing with them. If you feel your getting the run-around ask for Greg Nakano and tell him your issues. should resolve most issues.

XBG

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Two things...

First. Could anyone who has a meth kit installed show me how they have their tank mounted? I'm struggling to find a spot, but I'm pretty sure I need to get creative with brackets somewhere in the trunk.

Secondly, I'm almost positive I can't make past 4.5 psi of boost. I've been wondering about this for awhile, and it seems to max around there. I was flooring it earlier today and I still got the same results. I'm thinking I extended the actuator on accident when I had to disassemble the turbo. Think it's worth adjusting/shortening the actuator a bit to see what happens?

[pimp my yaris]

Yes it sounds like the wastegate isn't closing completely. Thats way to low. I had trouble trying to get mine to boost under 10psi. I kept shooting to 12psi due to a restricted wastgate. Now I max at 8psi.

[pimp my yaris]

I did call AEM tech line and they were very helpfull and they know their shit as well. I retarded my timing 2 degrees under high engine load using the timing map with the FIC. I dont think their is anything the E-manage can do that the AEM/FIC cant do. I have had very good luck with this thing considering this is the first piggy back I have ever tuned. If I upgraded to a stand alone, their is no doubt it would be AEM.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Been talking to PETERPOOP the last few days and he brought up a really good idea that I had, until recently, ignored.

Originally, I was under the impression that a boost controller was used merely to raise boost without having to change out the spring in the actuator. However, I didn't realize they could potentially be used to optimize a turbo setup. It seems that by using a boost controller, you're able to keep the wastegate completely closed until desired boost is reached. With just the wastegate, it should begin opening way before maximum boost is reached, thus diverting some exhaust gas too early...

So if the above is correct, this essential means quicker spooling, yes? What do you guys think? I'm always looking for ways to get the most out of my setup, since there isn't much else left to do other than head work / building an engine.

[Bluevitz-rs]

100% agreed.

If you aiming for 8psi, the waste gate will start to open at say 4-5psi and slowly open until 8psi is approached wasting exhaust energy. With an ELECTRONIC boost controller in the system, the waste gate will remain closed utilizing all the exhaust energy until 8psi is achieved.

For Ex.

Without the electronic boost controller, 8psi is only achieved at 3500RPM.
With the electronic boost conroller, 8psi is achieved at 2500rpm.

[cali yaris]

^ Yes. Did Peterpoop happen to mention that I'm the one who told him that recently? LOL

An example using World Electronics (Chris Rado) boost controller:

http://www.world-motorsports.com/img/dyno/tbcvswastegate.jpg

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yes Garm.

My only question is why didn't someone point this out sooner? This seems like a huge improvement. Even that figure shows a stupid amount of additional power being made.

Gonna look into some electronic ones. Any suggestions?

[Bluevitz-rs]

AEM (http://www.aemelectronics.com/tru-boost-boost-controller-gauge-757)

Sold at MI too!

[PETERPOOP]

Yes Garm, I mentioned you! My guru. lol. Bring those zage kits in! Let's do this

[cali yaris]

haha "Guru", I just learned from other people, I think we all do.

Focus, no one ever asked a question about boost controllers before.

"the truth is out there" -- if you know how to Google. :biggrin:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I have a bit of a conundrum...

My car is stuck in open loop all of the sudden. I have no idea why it is, but now I can't boost because it goes LEAN. Anyone have any ideas why it suddenly decided to stay in open loop? My thought is it has something to do with driving cycles and the ECU seeing boost, as this is the longest I've driven without pulling terminals off the battery. I'm sure I could probably do just that and it would reset, but this is certainly a curious case. No CELs either, and my turbo timer is getting feedback from the AFR sensor still.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Ok this situation is baffling, but incredibly awesome. My car is still doing the same thing. I pulled the AFR plug just to make sure the ECU throws a CEL, and it does. So... Something is happening that's forcing the car into open loop without any CELs! This is an optimal situation, and I wish I could figure out why it's happening for future reference. I have no idea where to even begin looking though.

I'm going to just tune the car instead of resetting the battery. If it swaps back to closed loop at some point - no biggie.

EDIT: As soon as I plugged my FIC back in and started the car, the issue resolved itself. I'm still clueless as to what I just witnessed, but I would love to find out. There must have been some criteria the engine failed to meet to throw itself into closed loop. The catch would seem that whatever it is doesn't cause a code though...

Oh and also - I was reading the service manual and noticed the AFR sensor heater operates between .9 and 10 Amps. A code is thrown if the current drops below .8A. Could it be possible to greatly limit the current that reaches the heater? My thought is that maybe, just maybe, we could limit its performance enough to prevent the AFR sensor from functioning correctly, thus putting the car in open loop.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I'm assuming no one understands what the hell I've been talking about lol.

Anyways, there must be something wrong with my AFR sensor. Started the car up today, and it did the open loop thing. It started open, warmed up, went closed, then around 115F water temp it opened again. :confused:

Pulled my FIC bypass plug, put it back in, problem solved. Drove to class and got P2238 when I was almost there. The car went open loop, I cleared the code, and back to closed. On the way home, no code but it just suddenly got stuck in open loop again. The whole thing is so strange, but I can't be bothered with crap like this.

I've pulled my AFR sensor plug and am going to tune the car in open loop. I should have done this awhile ago, instead of messing around with the FIC. This is tried and true, and a CEL that doesn't cause limp isn't the end of the world.

[pimp my yaris]

Sounds very similar to my problems. My car stayed in closed loop but my factory O2 sensor was going wacky. While driving it was OK but when hot at idle it was very slow to respond. Sometimes it would go so lean it would dye out. I think the location of the o2 had something to do with it. Mabe if it was located before the turbo it would be OK. I have removed the o2 sensor and tuned in open loop. Much better now. Still need some bigger squirters though.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

WOW I should have tuned the car like this sooner. It's soooo easy. Not to mention it does in fact feel like it drives better.

Honestly, I think this is the way most people should consider using. Besides having a constant CEL, the only other very slight downfall is a SMALL loss in fuel economy. If you tune the car around 14.7 out of boost, and richer during boost, the loss will be minimal though.

Also - just got my cheapo manual boost controller today (Joe P, ball and spring type). Since I'm tuning I feel a little more comfortable using it, so I'll install it tomorrow. Should be interesting to see what happens with spooling once I get it set to the right psi. :thumbup:

Will post up my tune once I'm thoroughly satisfied with it. Should be very helpful for all future Zage users, but only if you're tuning the car in open loop.

[cali yaris]

^ Excellent! I got five more Zage kits in today. :thumbsup:

[Freedan]

^ Excellent! I got five more Zage kits in today. :thumbsup:

:eek:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

So anyone remember how I said the Zage BOV has a sweet, unique sound? No, I was wrong. I have BOV flutter lol... But it sounds soo cool :w00t:

Currently looking into it... Having flutter means the BOV is set too soft I think?

[Bluevitz-rs]

^ so it isn't closing tight enough, right?

[PETERPOOP]

I read somewhere that its the air recirculating and pushing the turbo blades backwards. someone was saying that it isn't THAT bad on a small amount of boost?

[pimp my yaris]

I think peterpoop is right. The flutter sound is compressor surge [air going back through turbo blades]. IE: the bov may be a little tight. Mine was set to loose and my engine kept dying out because it was leaking out to much metered air and I went way rich. I tightened up the spring and now I get some flutter before I get the air rush sound when it opens. But now it almost never dyes out. I dont think a little flutter will hurt as long as when your on the gas hard you hear it open when you let off. Its hard to imagine the whole automatic trans. situation.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I've been playing around with my manual boost controller the last few days and haven't seen any noticeable improvement in spooling unfortunately, but I'll keep at it.

Was wondering about this though.... If my PCV hose has a kink in it, that would cause blow-by and oil in the intake, right? I'm thinking that's the reason I found oil in the intercooler. Looks like it could also be related to my P0101 code.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

The more I think about it, the more I think you're right...

PCV being clogged can't get oil in the charge piping, especially when there's none in the MAF piping.

So this means one of two things. Either the oil level issue, or my seals are blown. I don't want to accept the latter, but I don't think that's the case anyways because I'd have lost more oil (?).

I'm going to tap my block sometime this week. We'll see what happens.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

BTW what part on our car are you calling a PCV? Also turbo there is a big misconception on what a turbo seal is. Just to let you know a turbo has no seals in the sence that there are made from gasket material or rubber o ring. Everything on a turbo is made from metal like brass or steel. If you in & out of oil supply has to much psi or too little flow the only place oil can go is out the turbine side ot compressor side. Technicaly a turbo has bushings that kit oil in the oil chamber.

Thanks for the info, I was under the impression that there WAS some sort of gasket material in use for the seals.

As for PCV hose, I'm talking about the hose that connects to the MAF piping. It looked like I was running with it kinked for some time.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Zage%20Install%20-%20Day%204/AirFilterOn.jpg

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Alright well here's my tune for anyone interested. I'm pretty satisfied with it at this point.

Specs:
-AEM FIC Fuel map
-Zage Turbo Kit
-AFR Sensor unplugged
-1ZZ Injectors (240-260cc; stock: 200cc)
-MBC set to about 8 psi (probably irrelevant)
-Automatic (should work just as well for manual)

I've set this tune up to get both the best of performance and fuel economy. At any point outside of boost, I've aimed for 14.7 (stoich) for emissions and fuel economy purposes. Here's how I have boost arranged...

1 psi - low 14s, high 13s
2 psi - Around 13.5
3 psi - low 13s, high 12s
4 psi - 12-12.5
5 psi+ - Around 11.5

I thought this was pretty reasonable considering after a couple of months driving around without a tune, stoich seemed to be fine up to 5 psi. Obviously the greater the air is compressed, the more heat is produced, so additional fuel (for cooling) should be added. I've definitely noticed a performance increase by running richer AFRs as well.

Hopefully this tune will be largely plug and play, but if not, I'd like to point out how I went about this. ANYONE can do this (with a wideband, of course).

-Hook laptop up to FIC to log the run (I never used the internal logger).
-Log the run. I honestly just did this during normal driving. You're going to want some spots where you're boosting, and simply cruising.
-Open the log up in excel and hide all data except RPMs, fuel trim, wideband, and engine load.
-Look for areas in the log where the breakpoints on the fuel map approximately match up. Then look at the fuel trim on excel and the map. Subtract points from the map at that location to lean the mixture, add points to richen the mixture. I never added/subtracted too much at once - you only want small changes until you reach your desired AFR.

***This is a weird glitch in the coding of the FIC I discovered (pimp my yaris also had this problem). Everywhere you see a .8, leave it alone. It's simply there to prevent the following. Apparently, when the FIC is fueling and it gets dropped to 0 (i.e. accelerating then letting off the throttle) it freaks the hell out. I noticed it was just dumping fuel at AFRs richer than 10. My engine was stuttering badly until I replaced all the zeroes with .8.

At this point, the only way I can make a Zage turbo kit install easier is by showing up and doing it myself lol.

DISCLAIMER: I'm not responsible for any problems that may arise from using my tune. It's tried and tested, but not stupid-proof.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

No problem, pimp my yaris more or less pointed it out when we were chatting. Now everyone knows - it is a pretty weird problem though.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

As some of you may know, I've been having problems with my tune suddenly becoming substantially richer with colder weather. I now know for a fact why this is happening, and figured this would be great to know for anyone who intends to do their own tuning.

In a nutshell, the problem is New Jersey's crappy seasons. I was reading into spark plugs and found an interesting point on NGK's site that confirmed my suspicions. In general, fuel injected engines will richen the mixture during colder weather to compensate for denser air. Ok, no big surprise. However, the way my tune is set up is a problem now. The FIC doesn't allow zero values or negative values in the fuel map without causing huge engine hesitation. So leaning out the mixture is out of the question.

I was driving today and realized the ECU is doing what it's programmed to do. Then it hit me... I HAVE 1ZZ INJECTORS INSTALLED. Without an AFR sensor to correct the mixture, it's adding fuel based on quantity of air and calculating the duty cycle as if 1NZ injectors were in.

I'm going to swap them out tomorrow. However, this has me slightly concerned as to whether or not the 1NZs will max out by 8 psi of boost. I guess I have no choice but to try :iono:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

^ That was the problem.

I'd also like to debunk the whole 1NZ injector maxing out thing once and for all. 1NZ injectors should be good for up to about 10 psi of boost. However, it's not that simple if you want to run a safe AFR. For example, the first point the duty cycle maxes is at 7 psi @ 5000 RPMs. This assumes a target AFR of 11.5. It's still possible to maintain 11.5 AFR at about 10 psi @ 3500 RPMs as well. You could probably get away running a little leaner under full boost (low 12s). It all really depends on how hard you drive the car.

This means larger injectors aren't needed for low boost applications (8-9 psi) unless you're redlining the car all the time. Even 10 psi will be safe. If you're tuning open loop, I definitely recommend NOT switching the injectors. At below freezing ambient air temps, the ECU was richening up my cruising mixture to as much as high 12s. In other words - I was wasting a ton of gas :redface:

It's so much fun being the one who has to make the mistakes first :rolleyes:

[cali yaris]

^ sorry but I find this confusing. You said:

For example, the first point the duty cycle maxes is at 7 psi @ 5000 RPMs.

which is nowhere near redline, and nowhere near 10psi. then you said:

This means larger injectors aren't needed for low boost applications (8-9 psi) unless you're redlining the car all the time.

can you clarify please?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Sorry I'm just so used to looking at the FIC fuel maps when I'm sure many others haven't even seen what they look like. I'll break this down as much as possible and assume nothing.

Firstly, it's widely accepted that 11.5 is a good AFR for boost conditions. In order to maintain that ratio, the duty cycle (time the injectors are held ON), must be increased as engine load and RPMs increase. Simple concept - the harder the engine works, the more air is needed, and thus the more fuel is needed. Varying load/ RPM combos need different values. For example, 2 psi of boost @ 5000 RPMs is NOT going to need the same duty cycle for 2 psi of boost @ 1200 RPMs.

That's why the duty cycle maxes at different RPMs for each pound of boost (starting at 7). In this case you can say the fuel needed to maintain 11.5 at 7 psi @ 5000 RPMs is close to the fuel needed at 10 psi @ 3500 RPMs - the maximum duty cycle (100%).

Here's a couple of examples of duty cycle maxing to show the linear trend it follows (approximately):

6 psi @ about redline
7 psi @ 5000 RPMs
8 psi @ 4400 RPMs
9 psi @ 4000 RPMs
10 psi @ 3500 RPMs
11 psi @ 3200 RPMs

The last three are theoretical, but should be pretty accurate.

Hopefully that'll clear it up a bit. I'm struggling to explain this right now :iono:

[pimp my yaris]

Me too ^

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Hey all

Been awhile since I updated. As some of you may be aware I've had an ongoing "boost leak" problem pretty much since I've finished the install. This week I finally got around to running some boost leak tests and found a whopping 10 leaks. Some of them were pretty significant. Needless to say the car idles substantially better now. Unfortunately... My leak problem remains.

I'm baffled and really need some help. What I'd like to think this means is that the exhaust is somehow the culprit... Whenever I get on the throttle I hear a ton of air escaping. I've combed the damn thing over so many times and found no noticeable air leaks that would hurt spooling. I'm beginning to wonder if my 2.25" crush bent catback is just not providing enough breathing and air is being forced out of whatever little crack it can find...

Anyone have any ideas, things to try, how to accurately test for exhaust leaks etc? I'm tired of being stuck at 5 psi.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Holy thread revival LOL

easiest way that I know of to find exhaust leaks is to get the car up on stands, start it and let it idle and have someone with a rag block off the tailpipe. You'll hear the puffing sound out of any leak in your exhaust.

[cali yaris]

2.25" shouldn't be the source of the problem, unless it's blocked somewhere inside.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

My current running theory is at least one of the cats is clogged from the oil burning caused by the whole zage oil pan fiasco...

Sorry for the necromancer antics. Personally, I like this thread :thumbup:

[cali yaris]

I like it too. :smile: I just had to replace (remove, actually) a cat from a '79 Spitfire. It was 90% blocked with oil and gunk. Totall fixed the problem.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

^ Had the cats removed and that was what I expected to see. They looked brand new still. However, removing them freed up a noticeable amount of power all across the band (especially at higher revs).

But I solved the problem anyway lol. Apparently that air escaping was just the wastegate cracking lmao. Inexperience... :laugh:

The actual problem was the truboost. I must have wired it wrong because as soon as I plumbed a manual boost controller in the line I was spiking up to 11 psi. Adjusted it and now running 8-9 psi. Feels great man :thumbsup:

[cali yaris]

EXCELLENT. :clap:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

So uh... I've got problems. :cry:

Seemingly out of nowhere last night, my engine started running like complete garbage. Here's the symptoms...

-Cold start, engine warms up fine until about 130C water temp.
-After that, AFR goes super lean, vacuum drops to 9 inHG, IGN goes negative, RPMs less than 500
-If I step on the gas, the AFR goes super rich
-During cruise, my AFRs fall into a more acceptable range
-I have no new codes. Just the usual P0031 from not having a front O2 sensor.
-FIC bypass makes no difference.
-Battery voltage is healthy with engine on and off
-Ran two different sets of plugs with varying gaps - nope.

All signs point to a vacuum leak, but I haven't been able to find one. I'll have an air compressor tomorrow for a more thorough check, but I'm not entirely convinced I'll find one...

Other thoughts:
-Bad gas (I've had a similar experience before, but not this severe)
-Stuck valve

Help guys :frown:

[Bluevitz-rs]

for one, at 130°C you're cooking the engine. Maybe you mean °F when around the cool light goes off?

You've tried resetting the ECU? also, do you have a way to add the front O2 sensor back in?

[Bluevitz-rs]

for one, at 130°C you're cooking the engine. Maybe you mean °F when around the cool light goes off?

You've tried resetting the ECU? also, do you have a way to add the front O2 sensor back in?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yeah, 130F, typo... Otherwise my block would be on its way to becoming a puddle of aluminum.

ECU has been reset. Front O2 sensor I would need to pick up, but I need one for inspection anyway...

If a vacuum leak doesn't turn up, I'll grab an O2 sensor, return to closed loop, and go from there. Wish me luck :iono:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

So I can't find any vacuum leaks. I checked the injectors too. Look clean and all cycle fine.

But uh.. I did find my OEM O2 sensor floating around in the engine bay lmao.

The result is the same. The only difference is you can see the afrs being adjusted back to stoich, but they continue to go either super lean or rich (if I touch the gas). Also, no codes. I might attempt to drive a bit to complete the drive cycle but I'm not crazy about that.

Gonna do a compression test shortly. Let me know if you think there's any abnormal engine noises (this was taken while the afrs were somewhat maintaining stoich).

http://youtu.be/cgtU-mSDaBk

[Bluevitz-rs]

OH!! did you check the MAF sensor? Weird things happen when they get dirty.

PS, clicked on the vid with my home theatre system on with the sub, sounds like I was standing there looking for myself LOL

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yeah I was surprised at how awesome the sound was too :biggrin:. Usually most phone videos sound like a gargled bunch of crap.

I checked the MAF. Pins and IAT sensor looks clean. Only other thing I can think of is voltage checks.

BTW, here's a video of the engine being bogged down (rich). Probably irrelevant, but eh.

http://youtu.be/zQSgTpNFrpU

[Bluevitz-rs]

Ok, back to the O2 sensor, was it bolted in place just not hooked up, or hook up, just not in the exhaust?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I took it out once I found out how bad leaving it downstream, unplugged, was. It appears to be working fine and the car is maintaining closed loop without a problem (but not stoich). I guess it's still possible that its faulty, but that still doesn't explain why I could run open loop for so long without problems.

[Bluevitz-rs]

maybe it got damaged? and is giving bad out of range readings, but not enough for a code.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

It's definitely possible, but still wouldn't explain the open loop situation. I was thinking the same with the back O2 sensor, but that's purely for emissions right?

It looks like I need to drive enough to complete a drive cycle....

EDIT: Compression - 195, 195, 205, 205
Side note: If stock is 213 and that's after 2 and a half years of boost... Well, 'nuff said.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Ok, I'm completely out of ideas...

-Replaced the MAF - no
-Checked the throttle plate - fine
-Monitored O2 sensor voltage - within range
-PULLED the rear O2 - no change (apparently it doesn't affect af/r at all, even though the service manual makes it out to be a pretty big deal)
-No exhaust leaks

I'm noticing more so that during closed loop I can 'somewhat' maintain stoich, but as soon as I touch the gas everything goes to hell. Rich, engine bogs, doesn't recover at all.

Also, I did manage to throw a system too lean code, but... duh. Not sure how credible that is because I was screwing with MAF skews in the FIC...
HELP ME lol. I've never been so stumped by anything engine related :rolleyes:

[Bluevitz-rs]

Are you still running the stock fuel system?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yes. The pump and regulator are the only things I haven't checked, mainly because I can't find a thorough way to do so.

[Bluevitz-rs]

What's the intake air temp reading?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Completely fine. So is the coolant temp.

Is the regulator the thing on the fuel rail? I remember reading somewhere it was part of the pump assembly...

[Bluevitz-rs]

Yeah part of the pump. Almost seems ECU related. The way it runs fun in closed loop while cold then like crap when in open.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I'm definitely a little worried about that, but everything else seems to be running fine. I'd expect to see more adverse side effects if the ECU was crapping out (esp. from what we've seen with yaris2010RS). It's almost like the only problem is fuel delivery is being adjusted too slowly. For example, when I hit the gas during idle the mixture goes lean for a few seconds, then overly rich. If I go light on the throttle it will sometimes recover and then go back to being lean before kind of settling around stoich.

Any ideas on how to test fuel pressure? The pump is probably okay if it's actually delivering too much fuel, but maybe the regulator is getting stuck...?

[Bluevitz-rs]

Yeah you just need to get a pressure gauge to go under the hood where the fuel line connects up to the rail. There's a quick release fitting there. I think you need a special tool to get it apart. That is another good possibility. Maybe dirt got through the in tank filter and is making the pressure reg slow.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Ok, cracked open the ECM. Two things worth talking about.

First, pretty sure I pushed a cap off one of the pads lol. Oops. Easy enough to fix though.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20121209_010406.jpg

This was a lot more noticeable... I don't think i knocked this out of place. Regardless, WHAT IS THIS. I've done quite a bit of work on electronics but never seen something like this before. (Bottom right corner, next to white square)

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20121209_010108.jpg

Otherwise, things look good...

[yaris2010RS]

oooooo.... that doesnt look good, im sure CTScott will be able to tell you what that is.

glad to see you got into your ECM and it sounds alot like the same issues i was having. If you learned anything from my thread, dont drive it too much.

Also just a side note, check your blowby from the breather tube. 2 years boosted with no serious problems? congrats man and knock on wood. I like to think i would have made it 2 years if i didnt have my ECM issues.


also when was the last time you did a tune up? fuel system cleaner and spark plugs? when my car was acting up i did a tune up and it got better so that was definatly a contributing factor

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Spark plugs are (were) only a little over a year old. I actually just bought seafoam for the first time.

Not driving at all until this is solved. Just watching the car idle makes me cringe and I don't want to leave it running long during troubleshooting lol...

Definitely going to shoot CTScott a PM. How did that part look on your ECM (if you remember)? It sits between two traces but doesn't look like it should bridge them :iono:

[yaris2010RS]

ill look through the pics in my phone and see if i caught that in one..... If i wasnt out of propane for my garage heater and it wasnt so damn cold in my garage id go and open up my new ECM lol.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yeah, that whole winter thing. Hate it.

I'm praying this is related. The only thing I HAVEN'T checked is fuel pressure, which is going to be a pain. From what I can see it's going to have to be done out of the sender assembly because I don't have fittings for hookup in the engine bay...

[yaris2010RS]

TaDa!

http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa375/rsyaryar/20121119_233808.jpg
http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa375/rsyaryar/20121119_233759.jpg
http://i1194.photobucket.com/albums/aa375/rsyaryar/20121119_230636-1.jpg

[yaris2010RS]

use the white square label as a reference

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Holy SHIT. That might just be the problem......

And by might be the problem, I mean DEFINITELY is the problem.

You sir. THANK YOU.

[yaris2010RS]

what happened to yours? lol, it doesnt look burnt.....

[yaris2010RS]

y did we move back to your thread? my thread is only 7 pages, yours in 25......

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I wish I knew. Hopefully it didn't happen while trying to open the ECM. There isn't really any marks around it though (the cap had a bunch).

Tomorrow I'll resolder the cap and throw the ECM back in the car and make sure I get the same result.

Either way, looks like the ECM needs replacement lol. But hey, if I've finally found the problem I'm incredibly relieved.

[yaris2010RS]

i would imagine its just some type of diode, im sure you could fix this yourself (maybe wait for CTScotts input on this)

[Focus_Sh1ft]

That would be great. My only concern would be figuring out the correct specs.

Tomorrow should be an interesting day. Hopefully one that see me driving the Yaris again and not borrowing my mom's Sienna lol -.-

[yaris2010RS]

you had to resolder the cap back on? dude that sucks.......

did you find any loose pieces from it in the ECM case?

PM me if you need the numbers off that component, id open up my ECM for ya. (and im waiting for a reason to open mine up and cover it with di-electric grease and properly reseal it

[CTScott]

The obliterated device is a large diode. The markings on it are "T3 81". If you would like I can pull the one off of the ECM in the picture below and send it to you. I have been using this ECM as a sacrificial lamb for people needing components.

49251

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Great news! Threw the ECM back in the car and we still have the same problems! (I must live a pretty depressing life if I consider that 'good news' :tongue: )

The obliterated device is a large diode. The markings on it are "T3 81". If you would like I can pull the one off of the ECM in the picture below and send it to you. I have been using this ECM as a sacrificial lamb for people needing components.

CTScott - is there ever a time you don't pull through? lol
Are the markings significant to you? I ask for two reasons. One: could I possibly pick up an equivalent diode at a local electronics store? Two: I noticed yaris2010RS has what looks like 'T3 91'. Wondering if there's any substantial differences. For reference, my ECM is for a 2008 automatic (part# 89661-52G50).

If all else fails, I'll gladly take you up on your generous offer. Thanks again!

[yaris2010RS]

CTScott i wished toyota let me keep the old ECM as i would have loved to donate it to you

[CTScott]

Great news! Threw the ECM back in the car and we still have the same problems! (I must live a pretty depressing life if I consider that 'good news' :tongue: )



CTScott - is there ever a time you don't pull through? lol
Are the markings significant to you? I ask for two reasons. One: could I possibly pick up an equivalent diode at a local electronics store? Two: I noticed yaris2010RS has what looks like 'T3 91'. Wondering if there's any substantial differences. For reference, my ECM is for a 2008 automatic (part# 89661-52G50).

If all else fails, I'll gladly take you up on your generous offer. Thanks again!


The 81/91 are likely date codes and the T3 is the identifier.

It appears to be a BAV19W - BAV21W:

http://www.diodes.com/datasheets/ds12024.pdf

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Unfortunately, since these look to be used largely for commercial use, obtaining one (or even a few) looks pretty impractical.

I was trying to match some typical diodes found at a place like radioshack against the electrical characteristics in that link, but no luck.

Getting the piece from you looks like the best way to proceed. I'll send you my info shortly.

Also: Is anyone as baffled as myself as to how this happened? Technically I've been running the ECM in "limp mode," so maybe that circuit was spending too much time outside it's expected operational range or something? Weird.

[yaris2010RS]

my bet is water.......

Ill check tomorrow at a local electronics surplus store. Radioshack wont have anything like this, you need to go to a real electronics store....

[CTScott]

Pulled, packed, and ready to head to the post office in the morning:

49257

[Bluevitz-rs]

Pick your poison (http://ca.mouser.com/Semiconductors/Discrete-Semiconductors/Diodes-General-Purpose-Power-Switching/_/N-6hpde/)

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Pulled, packed, and ready to head to the post office in the morning:

49257

Excellent. :biggrin:

So I discovered something interesting while digging around. Apparently, the 2008 model year switched ECM models only two months into production. Common sense says Toyota must have found something pretty bad to merit changing the ECM during the production run, rather than waiting for the following year.

[CTScott]

Excellent. :biggrin:

So I discovered something interesting while digging around. Apparently, the 2008 model year switched ECM models only two months into production. Common sense says Toyota must have found something pretty bad to merit changing the ECM during the production run, rather than waiting for the following year.

Which part number ECM do you have? Looking at the EPC, for AT equipped Yaris only there was a change in 11/2007, with the build having started in 8/2007.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

^ That's exactly what I'm talking about. I have 89661-52G50 and they started using 89661-52G51 in 11/07. Haven't been able to find anyone else with ECM failures though, but then again that is a fairly small window.

[CTScott]

^ That's exactly what I'm talking about. I have 89661-52G50 and they started using 89661-52G51 in 11/07. Haven't been able to find anyone else with ECM failures though, but then again that is a fairly small window.

Crashy and Crashy 2 both have the 89661-52G50. The outer aluminum of Crashy's ECM is super oxidized. I really should open it to see if any of the salt has made its way inside yet. There wasn't a TSB on the change, so the 89661-52G51 isn't considered a necessary replacement, so they probably did some minor tweaking to the AT control, since the MT didn't get revved.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Leave it to USPS to take what should have been 1 day shipping and turn it into what is going to be at least 3 days now. Ugh.

[CTScott]

Leave it to USPS to take what should have been 1 day shipping and turn it into what is going to be at least 3 days now. Ugh.

Tracking shows that it was delivered today.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Oh boy.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Welp, this board is dead. Diode made no difference (yes I observed polarity).

Let's talk about replacement ECMs. My number one concern is if I'm going to need reprogramming or not. From what I understand, since I don't have an immobilizer I shouldn't need it. I'll have a VIN mismatch obviously but I'm pretty over that.

Also probably going to grab a part# 89661-52G51 since they're more available.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Well that's sucks! I gues you just need a non Imobilizer ECU as a replacement then.

[yaris2010RS]

from what i have gathered from a mechanic (chrysler but same thing), you will be able to switch it out without issue. if you have keyless entry (lock and/or unlock on your key fob) you may need to reprogram this feature. he said it depends on the specific car. (Im sure CTScott would be able to answer that)

As per the chip key thing, has anyone confirmed that a new ECM would need this programmed in? from what my dash cam caught of My ECM replacement they did not program any keys (nor did they ask/ensure i had all my keys with me). They may have transferred the data off my old one onto my new one but i am not sure

[CTScott]

Welp, this board is dead. Diode made no difference (yes I observed polarity).

Let's talk about replacement ECMs. My number one concern is if I'm going to need reprogramming or not. From what I understand, since I don't have an immobilizer I shouldn't need it. I'll have a VIN mismatch obviously but I'm pretty over that.

Also probably going to grab a part# 89661-52G51 since they're more available.


With a non transponder key one the only thing that ideally needs to be programmed is the VIN. This can be done via techstream. If you don't have it done, if your state does an inspection or emissions check, where they plug into the OBD connector, the VIN will read incorrectly.

If you don't want to deal with the dealer for the VIN reprogram, ship me the ECM and I'll program it for you.

[cali yaris]

Will you smog and pass my car next March? :laugh:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Got the new ECM today and it did absolutely NOTHING. I have the same problem... I even opened it up to see if it failed in the same way thinking maybe a short in the harness. It was fine.

I'm losing my mind over this... The only things left to check are the integration relay and fuel pressure.

Anyone else have any other ideas? Once I rule those two out, I really don't know what else to do...

[CTScott]

Got the new ECM today and it did absolutely NOTHING. I have the same problem... I even opened it up to see if it failed in the same way thinking maybe a short in the harness. It was fine.

I'm losing my mind over this... The only things left to check are the integration relay and fuel pressure.

Anyone else have any other ideas? Once I rule those two out, I really don't know what else to do...

Are you running a F/IC, or just the ECM by itself?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I've tried both. I can't find anything wrong physically in the FIC harness either. Maybe I should do continuity checks on the connector side?

[yaris2010RS]

^thats very very odd.....

Just a shot in the dark here, try to run on stock injectors and ECM (no FIC). just to rule out injectors and FIC.

Im sorry to say it sounds alot like the issues i was having. check what your blow by pressues are like at the breather tube.

Also im not sure how plausible this is but could you be having an issue with your stock O2 sensor? if not the sensor possibly the wiring touched the exhaust and melted. Possibly try to unplug the O2 to see how the car reacts.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Now that I think about it, I forgot the Yarisworld uses an AFR sensor not an o2 sensor up front. So it might really depend on that sensor to make quick adjustments. If the sensor is indeed out of calibration or reading slow it could be causing the lean rich condition.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Thanks for your thoughts guys.

I do agree it's very possible my afr sensor is bad, but like I've said it's completely irrelevant because open loop is running like garbage. However, I've decided to just get a new one tomorrow and go back to closed loop to continue troubleshooting. I need to eliminate whatever variables I can.

I'm hoping maybe with a new afr sensor and closed loop I'll be able to get the car running good enough to complete a few drive cycles. At this point it looks like I really need code(s) to point me in the right direction.

Just a shot in the dark here, try to run on stock injectors and ECM (no FIC). just to rule out injectors and FIC.

I run stock injectors at all times, and they check out because all four plugs are getting fouled. Also, I don't have a boomslang, so the best I can do is use the bypass plug and take the FIC out of the equation (which I've been doing).

I'll check the breather tube. There hasn't been any smoking out of it though.

Ironic aside: I just made my last payment on the car a week ago. Funny or depressing, you decide.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Here's a summary of what's been done thus far.

x Air induction system --- triple checked
x Injector blockage/leakage --- ALL plugs fouled
x Coils --- throws immediate codes; none thrown
x Plugs --- used three different sets of plugs with varying gaps
x Throttle plate sticking
x MAF meter --- replaced
x ECT sensor --- readings fine
x Gas leakage from exhaust system
x Rear O2 --- pulled; no difference
x PCV hose connections --- no vacuum leaks
x PCV valve
x ECM --- replaced
x Stuck valve --- compression: 195, 195, 205, 205
x FIC --- bypassed or not, runs the same
x Bad gas --- added fuel stabilizer
x A/F sensor (sensor 1) --- replaced
x Integration relay
x Fuel pressure

[Bluevitz-rs]

Do you know for 100% that the ECU isn't still looking at the AFR sensor when in both open or closed loop. Because simply disconnecting it will just cause the sensor input to put into default values.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I can't say for certain, but I've always been under the impression that with the AFR sensor pulled and unplugged, fueling is done using predetermined values based on other sensor data (MAF, ECT, IAT, crank/cam signal, etc.). Scangauge, for whatever reason, doesn't allow you to view A LOT of the OBDII protocol including oxygen sensor information.

[yaris2010RS]

just pull the plug on your 1st O2, im not 100% it doesnt use that reading even in open loop. i would ensure its not reading it.

Injector blockage/leakage --- ALL plugs fouled

what does this mean? are you rulling out injector issues based on the plugs not being fouled? from what your describing, it sounds like it could be an injector sticking issue.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

No, all four plugs are getting fouled. Even though the afrs are running from super rich to super lean, they're generally on the rich side (especially in open loop). There's no way all four injectors are suddenly sticking. I'd also expect to see a slightly higher compression in one cylinder from carbon buildup.

Also, to be clear, when I run open loop my afr sensor is NOT plugged into the harness and NOT downstream. Therefore no values are being read.

Even though the ecm is ruled out, I still can't get over the nagging feeling that this is somehow electrical (I checked all fuses BTW)...

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Didn't realize front O2 sensors are $160... For a part I don't even need. Ugh -.-

[CTScott]

Didn't realize front O2 sensors are $160... For a part I don't even need. Ugh -.-

You can get the generic Denso 2349052 for under $100.

[cali yaris]

Or one off my shelf. :smile:

[Golddeenoh]

oh now Garm says he has one. :P

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Bleh, I was using a different denso part number and was only turning up $130 at best. Oh well.

So yeah, no big difference with it in. Car spends a bit more time around stoich but continues to trend toward the lean side. Also, integration relay and PCV valve are fine.

I'm gonna have my mechanic smoke test the intake tomorrow and see if he has any other ideas. I did a typical boost leak test and the intake did hold some pressure, but all symptoms still point to a vacuum leak. Definitely need some peace of mind on this. It's a lot more plausible than something going wrong with a completely stock, completely untouched fuel regulator.

If not, I'm going to drive it enough to complete some drive cycles. I see no other options.

[yaris2010RS]

No, all four plugs are getting fouled. Even though the afrs are running from super rich to super lean, they're generally on the rich side (especially in open loop). There's no way all four injectors are suddenly sticking. I'd also expect to see a slightly higher compression in one cylinder from carbon buildup.

Also, to be clear, when I run open loop my afr sensor is NOT plugged into the harness and NOT downstream. Therefore no values are being read.

Even though the ecm is ruled out, I still can't get over the nagging feeling that this is somehow electrical (I checked all fuses BTW)...

$130 is alot for a sensor i have a spare one kicking around in my garage LOL, Should have asked man....

Im sorry to try to stick on one thing, but it sounds ALOT like what my car was doing when the ECM was gone......

Have you done a compression test? good place to loose vac is in the cylinders is a leak test on the intake passed. if this was a vac leak on the hose or cracked intake mani i believe you would get a very unpridctible idle (up and down or really high) with the car running spreay some brake cleaner or WD40 or something flamable and controlable to see if your RPMS go up when you spray suspected spots.

Another shot in the dark (im good at these but that doesnt make them useful) have you checked the condition of your turbo? possibly if its in dire need of a rebuild it could be holding up enough back pressure to screw with things. check from intake and exhaust side. also while your at it check the rest of your exhaust system or some sort of blockage (if you have a cat, check it!)

These are all the things i checked on my car. they went the cause but i had convinced myself they could be

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Spent the last few hours combing over the car with my mechanic... and nothing.

-Fuel pressure was fine
-Smoke test turned up nothing
-All sensors are within range via OBDII

We were finally able to get a P0171 code thrown, but that's it. The trims were everywhere - off gas they were trimming fuel like crazy, while on gas it was adding way too much fuel. In other words, they've never seen anything like this before.

So at this point, the only thing that can't be ruled out 100% is the ECM. However, the replacement ECM didn't do anything. The one and only remaining cause is a problem with the harness. Here's what I'm thinking

-Sweet talk someone at Toyota into doing some monitoring with the techstream tool. If the ECM is compromised or a short/open in the harness, it should show up.
-If not, attempt to continuity check EVERY SINGLE WIRE on the ECM (dear lord). I don't even know if the information for this is actually readily available.
-If not, attempt to source a replacement harness

Otherwise... We're talking complete engine replacement. I knew the day would come, but I thought it would be because I BLEW the engine, not some electrical BS.

[CTScott]

Spent the last few hours combing over the car with my mechanic... and nothing.

-Fuel pressure was fine
-Smoke test turned up nothing
-All sensors are within range via OBDII

We were finally able to get a P0171 code thrown, but that's it. The trims were everywhere - off gas they were trimming fuel like crazy, while on gas it was adding way too much fuel. In other words, they've never seen anything like this before.

So at this point, the only thing that can't be ruled out 100% is the ECM. However, the replacement ECM didn't do anything. The one and only remaining cause is a problem with the harness. Here's what I'm thinking

-Sweet talk someone at Toyota into doing some monitoring with the techstream tool. If the ECM is compromised or a short/open in the harness, it should show up.
-If not, attempt to continuity check EVERY SINGLE WIRE on the ECM (dear lord). I don't even know if the information for this is actually readily available.
-If not, attempt to source a replacement harness

Otherwise... We're talking complete engine replacement. I knew the day would come, but I thought it would be because I BLEW the engine, not some electrical BS.


I have a Techstream. Take a run up to CT.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I wish I could Scott, but with how the car is running it's not feasible. Thanks for the offer tough.

I was thinking though... If I shipped you one of these ECMs I have, could you possibly confirm if it's in a working state? Obviously doing the check through my car and thus the harness would be best but... Yeah. Still, if I could find out if the ECM is good or bad, that's still a pretty good datapoint.

One other thing regarding checking the harness... In the service manual's ECM pinout, would I be right in thinking the two pins listed under 'Symbols (Terminal No.)' should always have continuity?

[CTScott]

I wish I could Scott, but with how the car is running it's not feasible. Thanks for the offer tough.

I was thinking though... If I shipped you one of these ECMs I have, could you possibly confirm if it's in a working state? Obviously doing the check through my car and thus the harness would be best but... Yeah. Still, if I could find out if the ECM is good or bad, that's still a pretty good datapoint.

One other thing regarding checking the harness... In the service manual's ECM pinout, would I be right in thinking the two pins listed under 'Symbols (Terminal No.)' should always have continuity?

I can definitely check out the ECM for you. I can also give you a list of specific harness points to check (the ones most likely related to the behavior).

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I can definitely check out the ECM for you. I can also give you a list of specific harness points to check (the ones most likely related to the behavior).

I would definitely appreciate the harness points list. I'll get back to you on the ECM though. I need to see how the dealership responds to my request first. Considering we've bought three cars from them, I hope reasonably...

[CTScott]

I would definitely appreciate the harness points list. I'll get back to you on the ECM though. I need to see how the dealership responds to my request first. Considering we've bought three cars from them, I hope reasonably...

Here it is:

49368

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Wow, that is comprehensive. Must have taken awhile to put together too. Thanks!

[CTScott]

Wow, that is comprehensive. Must have taken awhile to put together too. Thanks!

Fortunately I had most of it together from some past projects. Start with checking out the wires related to the injectors, coils, cam, crank, and MAF. If those all check out, then the next stop would be the AFR and O2 sensors.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Been away for the last two weeks, but got back into troubleshooting yesterday. It looks like I've [unfortunately] found the problem...

Short story: Blew the head gasket

Long story: Finally decided to bite the bullet and get Toyota involved. I was lucky enough to get a really cool tech who was interested in the car. First thing we did was hook up the techstream tool. Get this - there were five codes that were being thrown EVEN THOUGH THE CHECK ENGINE LIGHT WAS OFF. Only his Mongoose cable was able to retrieve them. That is the biggest load of bull. Anyway, had P0300, 0301, 0302, 0303, and 0172. Since the plugs are ruled out, he said it's possible (especially with a hotter plug) that the coils burnt out. It seems unlikely all four would go, but apparently it's happened before.

So after running the engine a bit, we removed all four plugs. Out of cylinder one (and only one) you could hear air escaping/vacuum. That was the first nail in the coffin. After that, we topped off the coolant and ran a coolant reservoir with the engine on. Sure enough, there were air bubbles and small pieces of aluminum...

I still don't fully understand how a head gasket leak would cause issues such as misfires, but the guy working with me was very knowledgeable. My coolant temperatures were never excessively hot, and there isn't any coolant leaking out of the head either.

So, that's it. There's a lot I need to figure out, but I refuse to return the car to stock.

[Bluevitz-rs]

through in a new head gasket and maybe turn the boost down a bit. Or try and find a stronger one? I guess it depends on where the leak is when you get it apart. You'll probably find a tiny slit of black on the deck where the leak was. I've experienced this exact head gasket problem on a B18 LS Vtec on my friends old race car. Car kept overheating though, no other issues.

[cali yaris]

Get that tC out and park the Yaris? :biggrin:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Get that tC out and park the Yaris? :biggrin:

I wish it was that simple. Of course this had to happen mid winter... :rolleyes:

I plan on upgrading the head gasket if there is a better one available. I'll probably begin tearing down the engine tomorrow, but going to do another compression test first (did the other one wrong apparently).

Can anyone chime in on the best way to deal with the timing chain?

[yaris2010RS]

PULL! lol
What do you mean "Deal" with it?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Pretty good progress today. I'm almost there, but am kind of stuck on the camshafts / timing chain.

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130110_144522.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130110_144547.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130110_155105.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130110_155134.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130110_181717.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130110_181727.jpg

So yeah... those camshafts. I've looked at the service manual and not only does it not make sense, but I can't get the plug out of the "service hole." Further, the flange nut on the number two camshaft sprocket isn't budging. My wrench is actually stripping it. It looks like I may be able to just remove the retainers and wiggle the camshaft out with the gear still on, but I dunno. Can anyone give me some pointers?

[Bluevitz-rs]

You'll have to take the front of the motor apart. Probably need to release the auto tensioner and lock it back then pull the chain off the crank and then off the cams.

[yaris2010RS]

man..... after work ill try to take some pics for you of my torn down engine to try and help explain....

you'll have to remove the timing cover. once its off, remove the tensioner (by removing the preload then unbolting it). Once the tensioner is removed you can slip out all the chain guides and there should be enough play to pull the chain off the crank sprocket.

Once the chain is off the crank sprocet you should be able to pull the chain off the cam sprockets without removing the sprockets from the cams

EDIT: LOL, almost the exact same thing bluevitz-rs said....

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Thanks guys

...I was really trying to avoid taking the chain cover off :cry:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Now I really wish I hadn't taken the chain cover off... :cry:

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130113_160753.jpg

I can get another one pretty cheap thankfully, but was wondering if I could get away with just using sealant between the two pieces. Is the oil in the timing chain case pressurized? It looks like it's just thrown on the crank lubricating the chain as the engine turns.

Otherwise, I'm stuck on the head bolts. I thought it was a 12 pt socket I needed but was the exact opposite

[pimp my yaris]

I have the tool if U need it I can send it to U as long as U return it. Send me a PM with your address. I am surprised you blew the head gasket. The Yaris use a metal haed gasket and they are pretty strong. How much boost are U pushing? Did you retard the timing with the FIC timing map?
http://i614.photobucket.com/albums/tt224/nairb95yahoocom/8FD38DFE-F4EC-4143-AB24-76733C0CBFE7-7235-00000B0DEE22D09E.jpg

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Thanks for the offer pimp, but I already ordered one.

I was only pushing about 9 lbs with the timing untouched, but I don't think that was the issue. When I had the car at the mechanic, we noticed one of the clamps I had on the throttle body coolant hose had actually broken and was dripping coolant. It was a very slow leak, but overtime probably caused overheating... I never noticed excessive coolant temps though.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Could've had an air pocket trapped in that spot an never know it.

[pimp my yaris]

I was pushing 12psi with stock compression, but I did retard the timing at any boost level over 7psi with the Fic map. It will help avoid detonation. If your car would stumble or miss on hard excel. it could be the knock sensor cutting spark because of detonation. When my car does it I know I need to retard timing a little further. Usually after turning up the boost when the engine is still a little cool. A negative sign - must be put in front of the value on the fic map. It can only retard timing. It can not advance. Just a sugestion.
A lot of detonation can cause a bad head gasket as well. My Conquest TSI (with cranked up boost) blew several head gaskets because I had no timing control.
Also that front cover and timing chain really suck with the engine in the car. Very tight fit. The exhaust cam sprocket has three marks on it. Make sure U align on the right one. It caused me three days of headaches with my car almost starting, but it would not keep running. Best of luck

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I definitely wish I knew what the exact cause of this was, but I think I'll take your advice pimp and retard the timing a bit. Maybe the manner in which the gasket failed will tell us something (or if the head is warped).

[yaris2010RS]

where did u guys get the proper head bolt tool? i hammered a tripple square into it to get mine out.

[ilikerice]

i hammered a tripple square into it to get mine out

*shudders*

You can easily find those. 8mm 12pt bit. Just type it in google and you will get so many choices.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

where did u guys get the proper head bolt tool? i hammered a tripple square into it to get mine out.

You had to hammer it? I thought the tool is a triple square?

Here's the one I got
http://www.ebay.com/itm/400243378711

[yaris2010RS]

^negative, i purchased a tripple square and the angles were slightly off, i had to grind down the tool i purchased just to squeeze it in where the silly head bolts go and still had to hammer it into the bolt head, the bolts are garbage but the hardened bit was able to get all the bolts out.

Toyota used a double hex bit. which is almost impossible to find from local stores. Toyota does admit this tool was used on purpose and is only used on a few models. They do make a tool themselves and supply all toyota techs with one. This is the scoop i got from toyota atleast. They will not sell me a tool nor let me borrow one, they did offer me for the cost of 1 hour of labour, when im ready to put my engine together they will do it for me......

[yaris2010RS]

12-Point XZN (Triple-Square)
This is another variant of a 12-point head. But (as the name indicates) it is made of three squares (instead of two hexagons). The corners are therefor 90 degrees (instead of 120 degrees). This is clearly visible in the pictures where the corners are much sharper on "triple-square" than on "double-hex" heads.


12-Point (Double-Hex)
This is one common variant of a 12-point head. It is made of two hexagons. The corners are therefor 120 degrees. Common sizes are 6, 8, 10 and 12 mm.

[yaris2010RS]

Could've had an air pocket trapped in that spot an never know it.

wouldnt that have gotten pushed out after a small amount of engine use?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

What a load of crap about that tool. That's a pretty pathetic tactic to get more business.

Be it overheating or predetonation, I'll definitely be accounting for both of them.

Tool should be here tomorrow, so we'll know more then.

[yaris2010RS]

Just courious, did u end up getting compression readings?

reading more into your troubles and comparing them with mine we definatly had the same issue..... i keep meaning to check my HG for signs of leaks

[Focus_Sh1ft]

I did do the test again (throttle open, engine cold) and got 210 across all four. Assuming it is truly the head gasket, it should be interesting to see how it failed. I'm guessing coolant in the cylinder(s) based on what was found.

[yaris2010RS]

Thats odd...... if there is coolant getting in it would most likely be on the return (down) stroke so on the compression stroke you should see a loss of pressure.

What made you lean towards coolant in the cylidners?

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Ok, head is off. Look at the pictures first...

http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124518.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124526.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124603.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124613.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124707.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124741.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124952.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_124952.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_125001.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_130306.jpg
http://i894.photobucket.com/albums/ac141/focus_sh1ft/Mobile/IMG_20130118_130314.jpg

There's little bits of aluminum everywhere on the gasket. It's also covered in coolant.

I can't find any major cracks or anything wrong with the gasket. However, look at the cylinders. I don't know what they look like normally, but mine look like they could be warped. Each of the corners looks slightly burnt also.

Anything else look out of the ordinary? I still have to check for warpage on the head.

[pimp my yaris]

If coolant enters the cylinder the top of the piston will be washed clean and it is very noticable. Your pistons look equally dark with slight carbon deposits. Pretty normal. Did you disconnect the fuel pump or the injectors when you did the compression test? If the injectors are still squirting fuel during the compression test the fuel will create a excellent seal for the rings and give you false readings. The test should be done dry, and then retested with a little oil in each cyl. to compare the difference.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Yep, no cylinder washing...

I removed the two efi fuses when I did the compression tests.

At this point, I'm just going to replace the head gasket, have the head decked, and throw it all back together. It's been almost two months and I still am no closer to solving this... VERY frustrating.

[yaris2010RS]

IMO put her back together and see if shes magically back to life

[Focus_Sh1ft]

IMO put her back together and see if shes magically back to life

At this point, that's basically where I'm at. I'm convinced magic is the only thing that will solve this problem lol...

Hopefully something turns up with the head. On the flip side, at least I'll have completely ruled out any type of mechanical failure.

[cali yaris]

^ It's a small club of people who have been able to look at their piston tops. :biggrin:

[fnkngrv]

^ It's a small club of people who have been able to look at their piston tops. :biggrin:

Ain't that the truth!

[yaris2010RS]

^ It's a small club of people who have been able to look at their piston tops. :biggrin:

http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=43412

We will see.....

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Got the head back today, no warpage.

Also, big thanks to Adrian (fnkngrv) for sending me an extra timing chain cover.

Should have everything back together early next week...

[fnkngrv]

Got the head back today, no warpage.

Also, big thanks to Adrian (fnkngrv) for sending me an extra timing chain cover.

Should have everything back together early next week...

http://i1132.photobucket.com/albums/m563/fnkngrv/1st%20Engine%20Removal/2013-01-22135133_zps90fd2d39.jpg

No problem man. You have been a great resource for information as I was doing my turbo install and tweaks along the way. Your knowledge helped me immensely along with Carlos, Garm, Scott, and Brian. :headbang:

[Blown_xa]

I should get on here more, I miss a lot and I think I could have helped a while ago. I haven't read everything but kinda glanced at you issue. A stock 1nzfe will blow a rod and crack ringlands way before blowing a head gasket, as result of detonation.
As for your misfire isues, make sure you have plugs gapped to probably .030 in. If you have done that already..... your FIC is faulty or you are in need of a resistor on the crank signal wire on the FIC harness. This was a common issue with running the FIC on a Scion tC a couple years back. Even AEM's own p&p harness needed a resistor wired in, until they got enough phone calls about it.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

^ I wish you did chime in sooner, because it took me tearing into the engine to realize the head gasket wasn't the issue lol.

Made some progress today. However, it all came to a grinding halt when I stripped one of the head bolts...

I got it pretty tight before it happened, the others are only about 1/4 turn tighter and are the correct torque. I'm severely worried that will be enough to cause compression loss though...

Once I get the timing chain back on (and timing aligned), could I possibly run the starter and do a normal compression test? Really don't want to put everything back together just to find it was [even more of] a waste of time.

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Did a faux leak down test of sorts. Put 140 psi of compressed air in each cylinder at TDC, valves closed. I don't have the gauges to measure percentage, but all four lost air at a nearly consistent rate, so we're still good to go :thumbup:

[Focus_Sh1ft]

Engine is back together and is running the exact same.

So, it's back to the drawing board... At least I didn't make things worse lol.

[pimp my yaris]

Engine is back together and is running the exact same.

So, it's back to the drawing board... At least I didn't make things worse lol.

That blows, I think all of us that have fucked around with cars long enough know your pain. I know I been their :cry:

[CTScott]

Engine is back together and is running the exact same.

So, it's back to the drawing board... At least I didn't make things worse lol.

Did you ever get a chance to have someone connect up a techstream?