Yaris in SNOW ... how should you drive?

[romram]

just came from work, it's 11pm in CT... driving a yaris hatch.
oh boy.... it's hard to drive in a 4-6ins of snow. i know, even a 4x4 will have a hard time in snow mix with rain...
any tips? specially if your yaris is already shifting sideways... (at 5-15mph!)
:iono:

[fnkngrv]

It will be trial and error depending on your tires really.

[mryaris]

Dedicated snow tires will do wonders. I have a set for my Yaris and the difference is unbelievable.

[romram]

Dedicated snow tires will do wonders. I have a set for my Yaris and the difference is unbelievable.

thanks, snow tires will be good, but snow that are not plow or left behind will really make driving hard! i hope snow tires will really do good on a 6-12in of wet snow. :confused:
i hate driving uphill/downhill in CT

[bronsin]

A manual transmission works wonders. An auto is not as safe. (car doesnt slow down when you let up on the gas as much)

This is my first car with auto trans and antilock brakes. Not a good combination. The car doesnt slow down like a manual and you think the antilocks will stop the car in spite of that.

WRONG!

My advice is to forget you have antilock brakes and pump the brake pedal carefully as you normally would. That is exactly counter to the manufacturers advice (which is slam on the brakes for all they are worth)

[thepartsmancometh]

Our yaris is an auto with no abs. The car was fairly scary on the stock all season tires in ANY amount of snow. We put ContiExtreme Winter tires on it for last season, and that made a HUGE difference. While its still no 4x4, the yaris with snow tires is slightly better in deep snow than my AWD Subaru on brand new all-seasons. I have ABS on my car, and the yaris can definitely out stop me. I can still take it in a straight line from a dead stop though ;)

[enviri]

i generally avoid the brakes as much as possible and just coast alot. momentum avoids getting stuck :) Brake slowly and lightly as much as you can.

[Hamster]

My advice is to forget you have antilock brakes and pump the brake pedal carefully as you normally would. That is exactly counter to the manufacturers advice (which is slam on the brakes for all they are worth)

I agree with this 100 percent, and I've likewise discovered that it's better to just pump the brakes if you find yourself in a slide. This is the first car I've ever driven that has ABS, and I fail to see how it's safer.

[BluYrs]

I should probably attach a disclaimer of sorts to this post, but hey, I'm just telling you what works for me.

I find myself reaching for the e-brake (handbrake) when I need to stop when the road is covered with snow/slush. This is especially true when I need to stop suddenly. The ABS system on the Yaris sucks for braking distance (but is great for retaining manouverability though). I mean, when applying the brakes in slippery conditions, I have enough time to read a magazine while the Yaris very slowly loses speed. So when you know you have to stop, there speed is low enough not to lose control of the car and you're up for it, try the e-brake.

[Hamster]

Oh, I forgot to add....I once read that if you find yourself in a slide, steer in the direction of the slide, and you'll regain control. It sounds counterintuitive, but it really works. This applies to any car, not just the Yaris. And, of course, never panic.

[thepartsmancometh]

Oh, I forgot to add....I once read that if you find yourself in a slide, steer in the direction of the slide, and you'll regain control. It sounds counterintuitive, but it really works. This applies to any car, not just the Yaris. And, of course, never panic.

good advice. this is called countersteering. just DO NOT mash the brakes when you start to slide, as previously noted, the rear end will step out and you will spin.

[bronsin]

My ECHO on the stock tire was a nightmare in snow. Very twitchy, little traction. They were the Potenza 92s. My Yaris with the exact same tires is quite good. :confused:

My advice if you find your car not nice to drive in snow is do a little research on Tire Rack and find a better set of tires. :headbang:

[SailDesign]

Snow tires. And do everything more slowly than normal. No sudden pushes at any of the pedals, no sudden tweaks to the steering wheel. You're trying not to break anything free from the traction.

[EPyarisdriver]

Oh, I forgot to add....I once read that if you find yourself in a slide, steer in the direction of the slide, and you'll regain control. It sounds counterintuitive, but it really works. This applies to any car, not just the Yaris. And, of course, never panic.

Ha learned this from drifting. Not in a yaris though :thumbup:

[refotsirk]

Yup....snow tires....as the stock tires were and are just that...minimal. Driving an '07 and got Dunlop Graspic 2's year one...and what an amazing difference...so in spring thru fall the stock tires and ..well.....this week on go the snows. Up here in N. Wisconsin i would rather feel save and get safely where I need to be, without doing hail Mary's the whole drive....Spent a bit for the tires, (actually the same amount as my deductible had I a mishap and needed body work) but it was a perfect investment. The wife said she feels like there is more bite into the snow than even our 4x4 Blazer. Now that says something.
The deeper tread, and more pronounced siping and of course the softer tire material
make for a very enjoyable winter. Regular tires get harder the colder it gets.
Standard M&S (mud and snow) tires just can't do all they claim to do.
Last thing here....if you tend to drive alone? I put a sandbag in the foot compartment of the passenger area and that makes a very light car get even more traction. The engine over the front wheel drive can only do so much.
And of course....super tires or not...the lowness to the ground will get you "hung up"
in plowed areas like driveways.....I am surprised my lower front wind guard is still there after plowing my way thru deep snows.
Invest in safety...get snows too...unless you live in the sunbelt where you only have freak storm needs.
Just my thoughts..........

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

under 40 degree tires(thanks BARBER) on all 4 corners make for one hell of a good time if you like to play in the snow. Saturday's snow had me driving on unplowed roads with little to no problems......

[Flipper_1938]

If your Yaris has ABS, park it and wait for the snow to melt.

My Echo was great in the snow. I would go damn near anywhere and would stopped pretty darn well.

The Yaris goes OK....it just won't stop.

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

snow tires make all the difference

a full on winter tire with the mountain snowflake symbol is the only way to go in winter.

I got Michelin X Ice Xi2 and they truly do allow the Yaris
to climb steep snow covered hills, and make corners safely, unbelievably well.
it went from 'I never want to drive this in the snow' to 'this car is unstoppable in snow'



The X Ice also doesn't howl on the highway, like other studless snows.
It is the best snow tire for what I do. short weekday commutes on steep
drumlins, and long trips up the interstate on weekends.

any current studless snow tire will be like night and day on the Yaris.

if you want MAX possible grip, get something with chunky blocks like the original
Blizzak LM50. If you want excellent snow and ice grip but less howl on highway, get the
Michelin X Ice or the newer Blizzak with a similar tread like WS60 or WS70


*if you want to stick with an M+S tire that does OK in snow, Michelin makes the
best M+S tire hands down. They actually last long in summer and have real grip
in winter to some extent.

[carnageehw]

ABS brakes don't work as well in the snow in any car. It is meant to stop on a smoother surface where it the still spinning wheels can grip the grooves in the road. In snow or gravel, you WANT the wheels to stop spinning so it digs into the loose snow. I've never done it, but it's supposed to be easy to take out the ABS fuse.

I drive in Canada and i cannot agree more with the winter tire assessment. I've never had a product in ANY industry impress me more with the difference it made. I thought the winter tire stuff might have been a little overhyped but man, they are excellent.

[krolos]

I also got some stud less snow tires last winter and they work very well
forget chains and studs these special compound snow tires are really magic
no hype, mine are observe mud and snow tires by Toyo .

[LugNut]

Park it in the garage, and pull out the 4x4 truck with the big knobby tires. And then laugh and wave at all the little cars stuck in the snow as you blow by them! :rolleyes:

Bonus points: Yell at them "Git outta the way!!!"

That's my plan, and I'm sticking to it.

[wispaintstyle]

Be very gentle on your brakes and gas until you're used to your rubber. It'll give you nasty understeer, and if you get it back expect the back end to swing out.

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

last snow storm wiped out my driver side splash shield and all clips..

[mr_miles]

Park it in the garage, and pull out the 4x4 truck with the big knobby tires. And then laugh and wave at all the little cars stuck in the snow as you blow by them! :rolleyes:

Bonus points: Yell at them "Git outta the way!!!"

That's my plan, and I'm sticking to it.

2 years ago when I still had my IHC Scout II, I had to make grooves for a echo and a xb that were stuck in a parking lot, lol. turns out 12.5 inch wide tires are good for something! that thing was beastly in the snow.

[Idahotom]

My current winter plan is to drive the '89 Toyota All-Trac. Being all wheel (on demand) drive it kicks ass. BUT, no cruise control, no 40+ mpg (30+ though), not as good as audio, but it DOES have roll down windows in the back, so it is the prefered ride of Ted the Dog. You can see him in the morning watching as I decide which rig we'll be aking: if it's the old red All Tac he about pisses due to excitement. We are known for no matter how bad the weather, the rear windows are DOWN. Being 1,000' above the valley 4x4 isn't just "nice" for me, it's a gotta have. A lot of times I'll be coming home late at night and the snow will be deep enough (the county plows only in the AM after a storm) that ground clearance is a major factor, and I'm afraid that even with the best dedicated winter tire once high centered it'd be all over with the Yaris! Plus the All-Trac has the older boat hooks on all four corners if worse comes to worse. I paid 600 bucks for it 3 years ago, and can't kill it, in fact one of the reason I bought my Yaris was to NOT drive the All-Trac except for when absolutely needed so as to extend it's usefull life.

[Viperoni]

I agree with this 100 percent, and I've likewise discovered that it's better to just pump the brakes if you find yourself in a slide. This is the first car I've ever driven that has ABS, and I fail to see how it's safer.

This is terrible advice.

If you stand on the brake pedal, the ABS is kicking in constantly many times a second.

If you pump the brake pedal, ABS only kicks in when you're apply pressure.
When you're not applying pressure, ABS is not unlocking the wheels because there's no braking pressure, because they're not braking.

So you're going from many pulsations per second, second after consequtive second, to many pulsations for every alternating 1/4 second at best.

Even though ABS isn't the fastest way to stop a car in deep snow, not stepping on the brake pedal is far wosre.


Winter tires FTW.

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

Winter tires FTW.

ITS under 40 degree tires!!! GET IT RIGHT....

[RedRide]

Bottom line, nobody can tell you have to drive any car in snow. One simply has to have a feel for theircar/tires, for the road conditions and know the limits of its traction.

[Scubaru Steve]

snow tires make all the difference

a full on winter tire with the mountain snowflake symbol is the only way to go in winter.

I got Michelin X Ice Xi2 and they truly do allow the Yaris
to climb steep snow covered hills, and make corners safely, unbelievably well.
it went from 'I never want to drive this in the snow' to 'this car is unstoppable in snow'



The X Ice also doesn't howl on the highway, like other studless snows.
It is the best snow tire for what I do. short weekday commutes on steep
drumlins, and long trips up the interstate on weekends.

any current studless snow tire will be like night and day on the Yaris.

if you want MAX possible grip, get something with chunky blocks like the original
Blizzak LM50. If you want excellent snow and ice grip but less howl on highway, get the
Michelin X Ice or the newer Blizzak with a similar tread like WS60 or WS70


*if you want to stick with an M+S tire that does OK in snow, Michelin makes the
best M+S tire hands down. They actually last long in summer and have real grip
in winter to some extent.

im sorry, i have to disagree with a few points. the m+s aka all season, there are a few tires that are way ahead of Michelin. there are currently 2 all weather tires on the market, the leader is actually the Nokian WRG2, winter rated all season tire that will give the same winter performance as the Xi2, and it is made to be driven year round. a new one also arrived this year which is the Hankook Optimo 4s.

one thing that Michelin doesn't advertise is that their Xi2 is actually an entry level winter tire. they are for the person that rather drive on good winter days and want a quiet winter tire. In my area we need something a lot more aggressive. but in the end they are much better then an all season.

[Viperoni]

ITS under 40 degree tires!!! GET IT RIGHT....

Although you're technically right, it's semantics to the general population.

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

Although you're technically right, it's semantics to the general population.

I just LOVE busting BARBER'S balls thats all....

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

one thing that Michelin doesn't advertise is that their Xi2 is actually an entry level winter tire. they are for the person that rather drive on good winter days and want a quiet winter tire. In my area we need something a lot more aggressive. but in the end they are much better then an all season.

well, my actual real world driving experience

a) entry level ? this is Michelin -only- studless winter tire that will
fits 14 inch rims, and it gets rave reviews (and from me too)

b) there is no compromise in this tire except hydroplaning. My yaris climbed
the hell out of steep 13 and 14deg hills coated with powder, packed powder, packed wet snow, and ice spots. traction control only kicked in a tiny bit, the rest was all grip grip grip and it drove around extremely well

c) ya I think in a different post I did say if you are constantly on snow, such as Canada, get something else, like a blizzak. Michelin are great for occasional 1 or 2 weeks of snow, 5-8 times a year, the rest of time dry roads
...but the tread will last longer than any other winter tire...this is a good point here

d) that nokian M+S vs Michelin M+S. that model nokian will hydroplane on you in
conditions a Michelin Harmony M+S won't. people use M+S the most hours they drive a car. and Michelin tires are hands down the best engineered for what I do anyway...my driving is a ton of 80mph in all weather. don't need to hydroplane and I never do with Michelins M+S (xice do hydroplane so I slow down to 65 when using those in the wet)

if I can clarify I mean: any M+S Michelin with large circumferential grooves is the best tire...period. and yes they can do extremly well in snow vs any other M+S -and- last a long time. I need to add 'last a long time' and also 'Michelins stay round longest of any tire' no one can make a better carcass than Michelin. other tires will develop warps or flat spots under conditions Michelin tires just laugh at

e) yes there are a dozen excellent tires and depending on where you live and
how you drive can dictate what tire is best. no one tire will work for everyone.

Michelin xice defy physics though...they have insane grip but they look like they don't...appearance-wise. stick them on some rims and stick them on a car and put that car on ice and snow and stand back...they only lack in the hydroplaning department... and on wet tar they can be made to slip if you are extra aggressive.

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

let me re-clarify

c) ya I think in a different post I did say if you are constantly on snow, such as Canada, get something else, like a blizzak. Michelin are great for occasional 1 or 2 weeks of snow, 5-8 times a year, the rest of time dry roads
...but the tread will last longer than any other winter tire...this is a good point here


what I mean by this is: Michelin would be fine in the arctic. snow 24x7x365 if you want.

it just lacks at hydroplaning, and that translates to lacks at pushing slush. nothing dangerous,
and you can certainly drive just fine at normal speeds...but other winter tires let you drive
above the speed limits on crappy conditions if that is your fancy....if you
are constantly in a place where pushing wet slush is the norm, you might want something
else. but where the slush periods are short and few, these rock the house

since I will have more dry-road miles on the xice, like many in the US, the Michelins
rule because they have a long tire tread warranty and the tread can survive many more miles
on dry winter roads than any other studless snow tire sold today

[ROCKLAND TOYOTA]

^^ what he said....

[Scubaru Steve]

well, my actual real world driving experience

a) entry level ? this is Michelin -only- studless winter tire that will
fits 14 inch rims, and it gets rave reviews (and from me too)
yes, that is what Michelin released to us directly, they state on their marketing, and that they are only recommended to 4mm of snow. (to us of course not general public as they want to sell their tires.) as for the reviews yes, they are tested in places like where you live.


b) there is no compromise in this tire except hydroplaning. My yaris climbed
the hell out of steep 13 and 14deg hills coated with powder, packed powder, packed wet snow, and ice spots. traction control only kicked in a tiny bit, the rest was all grip grip grip and it drove around extremely well
that is the requirement for winter tires. they wouldn't be able to sell any tires if they couldn't.
have you ever used anything else?

c) ya I think in a different post I did say if you are constantly on snow, such as Canada, get something else, like a blizzak. Michelin are great for occasional 1 or 2 weeks of snow, 5-8 times a year, the rest of time dry roads
...but the tread will last longer than any other winter tire...this is a good point here
yes, it sounds like you are in an area where these could be a best match for you. our winters are nothing like that. i didn't see that you stated to get something else for worse conditions, my bad.

d) that nokian M+S vs Michelin M+S. that model nokian will hydroplane on you in
conditions a Michelin Harmony M+S won't. people use M+S the most hours they drive a car. and Michelin tires are hands down the best engineered for what I do anyway...my driving is a ton of 80mph in all weather. don't need to hydroplane and I never do with Michelins M+S (xice do hydroplane so I slow down to 65 when using those in the wet)
i'm sorry but the harmony?!... that isnt even a compairison between the two, the hydro-plaining and slush-plaining from the Nokian are far superior. im sure you have run Michelins for many years but there are better tires on the market. why wouldn't you want a winter tire made to drive year round that going to stop shorter on snow and ice? it just doesn't make sense? the harmony's time is over. that technology is 30 years old.


if I can clarify I mean: any M+S Michelin with large circumferential grooves is the best tire...period. and yes they can do extremly well in snow vs any other M+S -and- last a long time. I need to add 'last a long time' and also 'Michelins stay round longest of any tire' no one can make a better carcass than Michelin. other tires will develop warps or flat spots under conditions Michelin tires just laugh at
so right there that sounds a little bias sorry. but to say there are the best... you should do some research. i do agree that they have been around for a very long time. and yes they do last a long time. but the biggest thing that bothers me with Michelin is they focus on their high performance and heavy truck applications. it seems like they have almost given up on passenger tires. harmony same design for 30 years. the Michelin mxv series. their ltx series.. the only difference between the 1 and 2 is their siping goes through their tread block instead of half way. and their "winter" version is only a softer rubber... they lack on their r&d, they could be alot better then what they are.

e) yes there are a dozen excellent tires and depending on where you live and
how you drive can dictate what tire is best. no one tire will work for everyone.
that is true, i completly agree with that statement.

Michelin xice defy physics though...they have insane grip but they look like they don't...appearance-wise. stick them on some rims and stick them on a car and put that car on ice and snow and stand back...they only lack in the hydroplaning department... and on wet tar they can be made to slip if you are extra aggressive.
do they really? it may seem that way, but thats any winter tire compaired to an all season.


and you can certainly drive just fine at normal speeds...but other winter tires let you drive
above the speed limits on crappy conditions if that is your fancy

that is partially true, yes you can drive more aggressive, but also you have the ability to stop faster, accelerate, and maneuver safer when that time comes. because i know we have all been that that situation that we wish be had a little more control, thats truly what they are made for is safety, not so you can drive like an animal.

and lastly im not trying to pick any fights, im just trying to educate. they do make good tires, but so far i have found a better tire option in almost every application for people.

[toy_toronto]

just came from work, it's 11pm in CT... driving a yaris hatch.
oh boy.... it's hard to drive in a 4-6ins of snow. i know, even a 4x4 will have a hard time in snow mix with rain...
any tips? specially if your yaris is already shifting sideways... (at 5-15mph!)
:iono:

I did not need to put snow/winter tires on the last 3 cars I've owned (Corolla, Civic, Accord). All-seasons did the job for me, however for some strange reason with the Yaris snow tires are almost mandatory.

I don't quite know exactly why but it must have something to do with size/weight of this car.


-toy

[Scubaru Steve]

I did not need to put snow/winter tires on the last 3 cars I've owned (Corolla, Civic, Accord). All-seasons did the job for me, however for some strange reason with the Yaris snow tires are almost mandatory.

I don't quite know exactly why but it must have something to do with size/weight of this car.


-toy

short wheel base and light weight. you should see a smart car in the snow LOL!!!

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

alright, I am a Michelin fan, but I didn't get here by accident

8 vehicles I have owned myself, have driven about a hundred with all types of tires,
have settled on Michelins because they perform...period. When I go traveling to the Alps
(which I do every chance I get if I have the money) almost everyone up in the mountains with
work vehicles (small cars and vans) use Michelins...I wondered why,
and did some investigating and found out why...

This is my other rig, shod with Michelin LTX M/S, on top of my driveway,
which is 1 mile from the road and up rock ledges and through 2 ponds,
just to park in this spot. These Michelins (3rd set on this 4runner)have never let me down
in winter, nor climbing up to the cabin where it is parked here.

have used and tried dozens and dozens of other tires brands and types
(friends cars, my own, rentals in all conditions...) over the years and
Michelin remain the consistent, no-guess, rock solid, long lasting and safe
tire of all time. that is my personal experience. I find what suits me and
I end up sticking with it after years of seeing other inferior tires, that may have
some things better than Michelin, but often the things that matter are worse.
Those are: tire wear, and resistance to deformation from potholes and edge-hits.
Plus, they grip darn good and resist hydroplaning.

Your mileage and experience may vary, but I would rather be comfortable knowing
I threw the extra cash for Michelins...they have never disappointed me, whereas
other tires disappoint. Again, for my style of driving, which is up tote roads, lots
of highway in 4 seasons New England, and running around short steep roads around town.

anywho...all top tires are good tires. Michelin spends a lot on research, and the tires perform.
I also know a bit about Michelin motorcycle racing tires and the research that goes into
the rubber compounds and millions and millions spent on failed rubber formulas to find the
right ones...

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

ps: those tires ^ have +44,000 miles on them in the pic. Puffy highway miles, and harsh offroad miles, and that tread is still saying 'bring it on'.

those skid marks on the sidewall are not mud, that is dirt and lichens scraped from the side of rocks the whole damn trip up. sidewalls are unaffected after 2 years of this. and these are your mom+pop SUV Michelin M+S. as I said, I find that Michelin just friggin perform, no guesswork.

find me another tire... a mom+pop M+S and can take a beatdown like that and not develop even one warp, bubble, out-of-balance, out-of-round, or crack in sidewall or treadblock after 44,000 miles.

Michelin Xice Xi2 ...entry level tire...hmmmm?

[Scubaru Steve]

Michelin Xice Xi2 ...entry level tire...hmmmm?
here you go! straight from the horses mouth....
and dont take a chev into your cabin lol :p
http://i523.photobucket.com/albums/w357/scubarusteve/photo-4.jpg

[403RS]

Just got back inside from a hairy drive from Edmonton to Calgary (~300kms). Slushy roads, blowing snow with 150km/h gusts, and they Yaris took it like a champ!

My Goodyear Nordics found the grooves, then rode them like rails the whole way.

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

oh THAT chart. from corporate. hence, margins....

that is fine, it means don't care about cornering speeds....just a tire that grips
snow and ice as it's primary function

it doesn't mean entry level in the sense that it is a tire built
with any snow grip compromises...or Michelin 1st time making a
snow tire...the xice has loads of research into it

most tire mfg do not make as many -performance- snow tires as Michelin.
the performance snow tires are not usually rated and surveyed in -most- snow tire
comparisons. for most snow tire reviews and this vs that tire, the Xice more than
holds it's own against Nokian, Goodyear, Bridgestone, continental...each one
has one thing it does well, and something it sucks at. Michelin grips ice and snow
very well, and lasts a long time, but sucks at hydroplaning. Michelin performance
snow tires shown in the chart all do not do as well as the xice in pure ice and snow grip,
but they are hella at cornering and applying horsepower to the road, and also good at profit
margins in the pocket of tire dealers.

if I was up in the great white north I'd be on Nokians or Blizzaks. But I am not, I am
going to be on dry highway for 75% of the miles, and steep steep hills covered in snow
the rest of the time. hence, xice.

[A-Dingo-Ate-My-Baby]

I think the best way to put it, is this blurb

Get snow tires appropriate to your climate and driving style. If you don't see much snow during the winter, and you like to drive/corner fast on cold, dry roads then look into the H-rated or V-rated high performance snow tires...

These are not the 'entry level' tires

If your area gets heavier snow, you are often driving on packed snow and ice, or if you are willing to give up some dry grip and steering response for maximum safe winter traction then look into a more aggressive snow tire like the Blizzak WS-60, Michelin XIce XI2 or Dunlop Graspic DS-2.

These are considered the 'entry level' tires.

Winter tires like these will offer the best in snow and ice traction, but will give up some dry road responsiveness over an H/V rated snow tires to get it. These two categories are is mostly a personal preference choice for the tradeoff between snow traction versus dry road handling.

example of 2 types of Michelin or tire terminology and the word -entry-:

a) marketing/margins/profits

Michelin marketing speak (the document you photographed)
Xice Xi2 = entry

b) and here is another quote from Michelin about the Xice XI2 tire about actual usage:

Xice Xi2 = Our Best Extreme Winter Tire for Passenger Vehicles.

[Scubaru Steve]

Just got back inside from a hairy drive from Edmonton to Calgary (~300kms). Slushy roads, blowing snow with 150km/h gusts, and they Yaris took it like a champ!

My Goodyear Nordics found the grooves, then rode them like rails the whole way.

those gusts! lol, that was fun wasnt it!
how many Calgary guys do we have on these boards?

[403RS]

those gusts! lol, that was fun wasnt it!
how many Calgary guys do we have on these boards?

We had 5-6 people meet up in September iirc.

[Scubaru Steve]

We had 5-6 people meet up in September iirc.

That's better than i thought!

[joe keeney]

what is snow? Go south young man.