Tests fail to duplicate acceleration problem in Prius

[tk-421]

Here's a thing that bugs me about Toyota:

[...]the staffer wrote in the memo: "After about two hours of driving he was unsuccessful. Every time the technician placed the gas pedal to the floor and the brake pedal to the floor the engine shut off and the car immediately started to slow down."

They seem to be dead-on sure that it's a mechanical problem, and yet they have failed to replicate results consistently enough. So how can they be so confident about it?

Shouldn't they continue to look into the electronic side of things as well, just to be on the safe side? Or just to shut the naysayers up?

If what Mr. Sykes says isn't true, they should make a much bigger effort to prove him wrong. They should bore us with explanations as to why it is impossible. They should make a campaign for driver safety and print an extra few pages on the user's manual.

Instead, we get a two-hour test, a signed piece of paper, and $400 worth of mods (MSRP: $2500) for Mr. Sykes to enjoy, along with his bonus random death threat calls to his house. And people keep dying over this, and Toyota keeps getting terrible publicity over it, and they deserve every bit of it, just on the basis on how it has been handled.

[Altitude]

Steve - The factory mats do have a non-slip underside. It acts sort of like velcro against the carpet only not quite as strong.

why? - Just curious, when you exit your car, do you use your left leg to lift your weight out or do you use your right leg to push yourself out? Just wondering what it is being done by certain people that causes those carpet clips to fail.

[Gideon]

Originally Posted by tk-421

Here's a thing that bugs me about Toyota:



They seem to be dead-on sure that it's a mechanical problem, and yet they have failed to replicate results consistently enough. So how can they be so confident about it?

Shouldn't they continue to look into the electronic side of things as well, just to be on the safe side? Or just to shut the naysayers up?

If what Mr. Sykes says isn't true, they should make a much bigger effort to prove him wrong. They should bore us with explanations as to why it is impossible. They should make a campaign for driver safety and print an extra few pages on the user's manual.

Instead, we get a two-hour test, a signed piece of paper, and $400 worth of mods (MSRP: $2500) for Mr. Sykes to enjoy, along with his bonus random death threat calls to his house. And people keep dying over this, and Toyota keeps getting terrible publicity over it, and they deserve every bit of it, just on the basis on how it has been handled.

Because they also stated that if a Prius whose engine was engaged at WOT, applying the brakes (because of the regenerative braking system) would cause the engine to seize or more likely the gears in the transmission would be destroyed. Apparently that's one of the reasons for having such a system is to protect the car's engine.

That's outlined in the full memo (6 total pages btw, not just one) from the Oversight and Government Reform Committee after having Toyota engineers examine/test the vehicle.

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by tk-421

And people keep dying over this,

Show me a single case of unintended acceleration where there is actual evidence to back up the claim that it was the car and not the driver in error, which doesn't have notably suspicious aspects to it calling into question the claim's validity.

Regarding Sikes... I'd love for the NHTSA to do an intensive investigation into just how and when Sikes front brakes... and only the front brakes... got worn. (Remember, the rears were fine.) The most likely scenario is that he removed the lining material himself before making his fateful drive. That way he could stomp the brake pedal (theatrically lifting his buttocks off the seat for the officers to see) while simultaneously generating the burning brake odor claimed to have been smelled by the police, without that actually stopping the car, which would have ruined the drama of it all.

Now... if someone could just find direct evidence of it.

-Steve

Edit: Of course, stomping on the brake would have brought the engine back to idle, in any case, via the override provision. So probably just continuous moderate braking over a long period. Enough to get the rear brakes hot enough to smell: http://tinyurl.com/yb7okc8

"Buttock pumping", then, was likely on the accelerator pedal.

[silver_vios]

Originally Posted by tk-421

Here's a thing that bugs me about Toyota:



They seem to be dead-on sure that it's a mechanical problem, and yet they have failed to replicate results consistently enough. So how can they be so confident about it?

Shouldn't they continue to look into the electronic side of things as well, just to be on the safe side? Or just to shut the naysayers up?

If what Mr. Sykes says isn't true, they should make a much bigger effort to prove him wrong. They should bore us with explanations as to why it is impossible. They should make a campaign for driver safety and print an extra few pages on the user's manual.

Instead, we get a two-hour test, a signed piece of paper, and $400 worth of mods (MSRP: $2500) for Mr. Sykes to enjoy, along with his bonus random death threat calls to his house. And people keep dying over this, and Toyota keeps getting terrible publicity over it, and they deserve every bit of it, just on the basis on how it has been handled.

ugh..

a)there is a mechanical problem with pedals
b)sykes is lying
c)the two are unrelated and are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think

Your so hyped up by the media you aren't even mad about the right(wrong) thing

[tk-421]

Originally Posted by silver_vios

ugh..

a)there is a mechanical problem with pedals
b)sykes is lying
c)the two are unrelated and are not mutually exclusive, as you seem to think

Your so hyped up by the media you aren't even mad about the right(wrong) thing

I didn't know there was a "right" and "wrong" thing to be "mad" about. I only tend to get mad at stuff that actually concerns me (less headaches that way), but I'll keep it in mind nonetheless.

[tk-421]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

Show me a single case of unintended acceleration where there is actual evidence to back up the claim that it was the car and not the driver in error, which doesn't have notably suspicious aspects to it calling into question the claim's validity.

That's not my point. Even if every single one of those 52 deaths are not related, don't you think Toyota should take every precaution, if only to keep people off their backs? I, for one, would feel much safer knowing that their technicians are open to the idea that they are not perfect and constantly improving their testing methodologies because of it.

To me, one 2 hour test on one car under controlled driving conditions (that are likely quite different from what these drivers experienced at the time) is just not enough to put the issue to rest.

Even if it *is* because of driver error (which it may very well be, I'm no expert), don't you think it's Toyota's responsibility to inform the public about the issue as best it can?

[silver_vios]

^^ This is *one* test on *one* car. They aren't putting the *issue* to rest, they are telling *one* old man, he's full of it.

The *public* either is smart enough to know the truth, or dumb enough to keep listening to the news regardless of facts(as has been shown). A PSA from toyota serves no purpose.

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by tk-421

I, for one, would feel much safer knowing that their technicians are open to the idea that they are not perfect and constantly improving their testing methodologies because of it...
...
... don't you think it's Toyota's responsibility to inform the public about the issue as best it can?

Short of suing their customers and the mass media, I'm not sure what more they could be doing. Not one of the alleged incidents has been reproducible with the vehicle that the alleged incident has allegedly happened in. And you can bet they've done a huge amount of testing internally. How do you fix a problem which only exists in the imaginations of millions of people?

The root of the problem is that so many people are willing to believe extraordinary claims in the absence of evidence. But that problem has evaded solution for all of recorded history. And no doubt for a long time before that.

-Steve

[tk-421]

Originally Posted by silver_vios

^^ This is *one* test on *one* car. They aren't putting the *issue* to rest, they are telling *one* old man, he's full of it. A PSA from toyota serves no purpose.

See, the way I look at it is: It's all about the politics. If Toyota can successfully close a case that has garnered so much publicity as this one has, it becomes much easier to put the actual issue to rest later on, even if future cases are more credible than Sykes'. It simply gives them leverage.

The *public* either is smart enough to know the truth, or dumb enough to keep listening to the news regardless of facts(as has been shown).

The public (or most of it) is only smart enough as the government wants it to be. It is up to the minority of *free-thinking* boys and girls to do their homework and become smarter than what the government and media expect them to be. Ironically, that means that one needs to listen to what they're saying from time to time in order to piece things together.

BTW, I'd like to know where you get your news if not from... news sources?

[tk-421]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

And you can bet they've done a huge amount of testing internally

And my point is, if they have done this testing they should really let us know about it! Not only show results, but the actual methodology that was implemented. Which driving conditions were contemplated during testing? Were the cars brand new? Did they account for both mechanical and electrical scenarios? That kind of thing...

That way people with inquisitive minds will be more easily satisfied, and discussions would be rendered moot.

BTW I apologize if this information is actually out there and I just missed it.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by why?

the clips on my car broke within a few months, and i did have problems with them sliding around. So I took them out, not exactly hard. I've had problems with floor mats sliding around in a few different cars, and i removed them.

Please tell us how do you get in an out of your car and what kind of forces do you apply to the mat to break those clips???

I get my 13 month old in and out of my Yaris HB at least twice a day and that's an awkward move usually, since I have to slide the passenger seat foward, put my right foot in the back, the left foot outside, shifting my weight + a 26 lb baby from my left foot to my right foot, to get him inside and strap him in his seat. The rear mats have a much smaller surface (about half?) and still they don't move at all!

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

My "Certified Used" Yaris didn't come with factory mats, so I'm using aftermarket mats, as I always have. Do the factory mats not come with non-slip bottom sides?

-Steve

Yes, they do, they are almost like velcro. Every time I clean my car, I need to actually lift the mats up to position them correctly, because once they are down they will not slide!

[Gideon]

Originally Posted by tk-421

See, the way I look at it is: It's all about the politics. If Toyota can successfully close a case that has garnered so much publicity as this one has, it becomes much easier to put the actual issue to rest later on, even if future cases are more credible than Sykes'. It simply gives them leverage.

They don't have the ability to just "close the case", that's up the NHTSA. Doing such before the NHTSA posts their final report up would be PR suicide.

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by tk-421

And my point is, if they have done this testing they should really let us know about it! Not only show results, but the actual methodology that was implemented.

I would not be averse to a more vigorous defense on Toyota's part. And, in fact, they may be trying. Toyota has two main organized enemies in this battle:

1. The U.S. Federal Government.

2. The mass media.

Unfortunately, unless they want to take out infomercial time on TV, whatever information they are trying to get out to the public gets filtered through #2.

Or perhaps the lack of a more forceful defense is a Japanese cultural thing. I really don't know.

But I do agree that something more is needed. I'm hoping that they are working on a real knock-out punch regarding Mr. Sikes' stunt. Something that might shift the suspicion over to all the other balloon boy claimants out there with no evidence to back up their stories. Which is where it belonged in the first place. Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence.

-Steve

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

Show me a single case of unintended acceleration where there is actual evidence to back up the claim that it was the car and not the driver in error, which doesn't have notably suspicious aspects to it calling into question the claim's validity.

+1

A very good point! Interestingly, the "stuck accelerator" claims are nothing new. There are reports of "unintended acceleration" incindents way before the introduction of electronic throttle control and such, way back in the 80's!

One of my dad's cousins was involved in an accident about 20 years ago and it was determined that right before she flew off the road she had actually floored the gas pedal, thinking she was pressing the brake... The cops that investigated the accident told my dad that this happens quite often; people complain that their brakes didn't work, but there is absolutely no trace of braking (this is the time before there was ABS!) and no malfunctioning of the brakes can be found.

Everybody's reaction is to press the right foot in a panic moment... just some people forget to slightly move it to the left before pressing... which is all understandable in an emergency situation, when the body has to react in a split second... I don't judge them.

But when they go before Congress and start crying their eyes out and saying how God intervened after so many miles and stopped their car... that's when I get disgusted and switch the channel

[tk-421]

Originally Posted by Gideon

They don't have the ability to just "close the case", that's up the NHTSA. Doing such before the NHTSA posts their final report up would be PR suicide.

Good point. I guess I worded it poorly. I meant more along the lines of "in order for the case to be closed as quickly as possible", no matter who it is that actually has the power to do so.

[fmicle]

There we go, at least the case in NY was a typical case of "foot stuck to the wrong pedal" syndrome:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/us_runawa...lwb2xpY2VhZ3Jl