Lean Burn - Hydrogen Enrichment - Toyota Yaris Forums

GeneW · 10-19-2008, 02:06 PM

I'm going to restart the Hydrogen gas enrichment threads here.

I'm not into beating that poor little Nippon-Denso alternator with which we're equipped. I'm hoping that a catalytic reformer of gasoline emerges on the market that we can buy.

Quote:

Creating a hydrogen vapor and spraying it into the engine makes it easier to combust the incoming air-fuel mixture, greatly reducing wall wetting. "And hydrogen injection has another benefit," says Botti, "it can be utilized to heat the catalyst up much faster than normal." Delphi estimates a catalyst warm-up time of 20 seconds could be cut in half by adding this system, and allow a 50% reduction in the precious metals found in the catalyst; a significant cost reduction to the OEM. "Tighter emission standards are going to increase the load on catalysts, which normally means more precious metals are necessary," Botti says, "but we think this technology will mitigate those costs." It also should ease or eliminate the need to increase catalyst package size in order to meet the tighter standards, particularly on larger engines, and make it easier to reach SULEV (Super Ultra-Low Emission Vehicle) standards.

Delphi's hydrogen enrichment system
Schematic shows the basics of Delphi's hydrogen enrichment system, slated for production mid-decade. By reformulating a small amount of gasoline in to hydrogen gas, the unit can be used to cut catalyst light-off time in half, and increase the lean-burn tolerance of conventional internal combustion engine designs.

The on-board reformer, however, will have uses beyond start-up emission reduction. "The hydrogen uses very little gasoline, but allows a lean mixture to be used by making the engine more tolerant of lean-burn conditions," says Botti. "We are looking at putting up to 30% EGR (exhaust gas recirculation) back into the engine, which will easily compensate for the small amount of fuel we use to create the hydrogen in the first place." So, on the fly, a hydrogen enrichment-equipped vehicle could call on the unit to improve dynamic emission performance, giving automakers greater calibration flexibility. "We believe this technology will allow OEMs to run lean-burn combustion longer, and over a broader range of driving conditions," says Botti.

http://www.autofieldguide.com/articles/090203.html

Gene

TinyGiant · 10-19-2008, 02:23 PM

best one to make

www.smacksboosters.110mb.com

Sodium Duck · 10-19-2008, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TinyGiant

best one to make

www.smacksboosters.110mb.com

Is that BS, or does it actually work?

TinyGiant · 10-19-2008, 09:20 PM

well it does make combustible gas.. and the point isnt to get an HP boost but to let the car burn the gas cleaner and more efficently. They have done tests on the emissions and they show a decrease in toxins. And people get great results. They only work correctly if you mod teh 02 sensors too. When the car runs the gas and the HHO it puts out less emissions.. and the o2 sensors see that as running too lean.. and it will compensate and dump more gas in.. which will defeat the purpose.. I've read a bunch on this . and was going to do it on the jeep... until we decided to just get rid of it and the the yaris...

there is a yahoo group called watercar that has tons of info on it

Sodium Duck · 10-19-2008, 09:21 PM

Meh, unless it increases my MPG, I'm not too interested. I did the $30 oil catch can mod, I've done enough for emmisions, lol.

I wonder if that thread was saved.........

TinyGiant · 10-19-2008, 09:34 PM

it does increase the MPG alot.. because it makes the fuel burn better.. you need less fuel for the same burn... because there is less waste..

Sodium Duck · 10-19-2008, 10:27 PM

Well......... when BailOut buys one, then I will... lol

TinyGiant · 10-19-2008, 10:37 PM

you can build it for $40 worth of home depot goodies .. the plans are free on the site i posted. (Smack the guy who makes them) is all about free information and doesnt charge for the info and plans on how to build them. The money from the ones he builds goes to the car he's working on to work 100% off water :)

Sodium Duck · 10-19-2008, 10:40 PM

Well, if it costs 40 bucks to make, then I'd do it. If it does, and I get a major boost in MPG, then I'll go up to NH and buy you a beer. If it doesn't... well I get about 40MPG, I'll go up there and you buy me a beer lol.

I'll check up on the plans later and see what's involved.

TinyGiant · 10-19-2008, 10:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sodium Duck

Well, if it costs 40 bucks to make, then I'd do it. If it does, and I get a major boost in MPG, then I'll go up to NH and buy you a beer. If it doesn't... well I get about 40MPG, I'll go up there and you buy me a beer lol.

I'll check up on the plans later and see what's involved.

make it root beer and you have a deal <straightedge> :)

I was thinking about doing it but i dont want to void my warranty...

Sodium Duck · 10-19-2008, 10:48 PM

hahaha, FTW... new meaning for that acronym now lol

Rootbeer it is!

bnther36 · 10-22-2008, 07:36 PM

I would be interested to see how this works out. Personally, I think the best way to do this would be to set up a solar panel on the garage, generate the hydrogen from the solar panel instead of an alternator, store it in a used scuba-tank, move the tank into the car and then pipe it into the breather.

I think the concept of hydrogen is sound, I just don't know if running it off of the alternator isn't counter-productive

My 2 cents

TinyGiant · 10-22-2008, 08:22 PM

there was a guy who did the storage route

tiiams · 07-17-2009, 08:13 AM

Has anyone installed a hho system in there car yet, i have one of the first yaris 4 doors that entered the states i get 40+ mpg. My warranty expires in 10,000 miles and i am looking at building and installing water for gas system.

Has anyone else done it yet?

jambo101 · 07-17-2009, 12:57 PM

With all the clamor to get better fuel economy its curious why the major car companies with their billion dollar research and development departments never played with this idea or if they did why didnt they install it on their cars.Any links to substantiated testing of this system?

talnlnky · 07-17-2009, 02:31 PM

prolly law issues, and money... it all comes down to money.

Even if it doesn't increase mpg... if it reduces cost per mile at the same time of reducing emissions that is a big improvement. MPG doesn't tell the whole story... Cost Per Mile is what actually matters.

I got better mpg's in washington than oregon last summer due to the difference of E10 Additive in oregon's gas.... but washington's was also more expensive... so when gas was $4ish a gallon it was a wash.... with gas being cheaper... the E10 in oregon isn't as good... but i'm sure by the end of summer it'll be back on top in terms of cost per mile.

the equation to figure out is pretty easy...
Gas price per gallon /mpg
i.e. $3/40mpg = $.075 or 7.5cents per mile

$40 isn't very much... if that's the only cost... if there are recurring costs however... it makes it much harder, and takes much longer to pay for itself.

I think the biggest question is... how easy (read: how expensive) is it to mod the ecu to allow the lean mixture.

Yaris Hilton · 07-17-2009, 09:42 PM

Methanol in fuel produces free hydrogen that's said to confuse O2 sensors. I don't know what effect it has on the sensor.

YarisDude · 07-18-2009, 10:31 AM

If you do the physics, you loose more energy than you gain. The are losses in energy conversion, mechanical to electrical energy (alternator/belt - heat) and electrical-chemical losses in electrolysis (breaking the H and O bonds in the water). Accurately accounting for these conversion losses will show that you have no gain. Currently there is no way of invalidating the laws of thermodynamics, it would be nice to produce a perpetual motion machine out of my Yaris. If you can get the hydrogen for free you may have something - perhaps as a waste product from manufacturing. Perhaps I should get some chickens and use the poop to generate methane and bottle it to run my car, as I side product I get fresh eggs and meat. Blast, I still have to buy the chicken feed.

10-19-2008, 02:23 PM	#2
TinyGiant Tiny Giant Clothing View User's Garage Drives: 2008 Blazing Blue Yaris 3D LB Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rochester, NH Posts: 3,394	best one to make www.smacksboosters.110mb.com __________________ Sold the yaris... rocking an 89 vw cabriolet now :)

10-19-2008, 09:20 PM	#4
TinyGiant Tiny Giant Clothing View User's Garage Drives: 2008 Blazing Blue Yaris 3D LB Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rochester, NH Posts: 3,394	well it does make combustible gas.. and the point isnt to get an HP boost but to let the car burn the gas cleaner and more efficently. They have done tests on the emissions and they show a decrease in toxins. And people get great results. They only work correctly if you mod teh 02 sensors too. When the car runs the gas and the HHO it puts out less emissions.. and the o2 sensors see that as running too lean.. and it will compensate and dump more gas in.. which will defeat the purpose.. I've read a bunch on this . and was going to do it on the jeep... until we decided to just get rid of it and the the yaris... there is a yahoo group called watercar that has tons of info on it __________________ Sold the yaris... rocking an 89 vw cabriolet now :)

10-19-2008, 09:21 PM	#5
Sodium Duck ╚══════════RN Drives: 2008 Liftback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Western Mass. Posts: 999	Meh, unless it increases my MPG, I'm not too interested. I did the $30 oil catch can mod, I've done enough for emmisions, lol. I wonder if that thread was saved......... __________________ 42.88

10-19-2008, 09:34 PM	#6
TinyGiant Tiny Giant Clothing View User's Garage Drives: 2008 Blazing Blue Yaris 3D LB Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rochester, NH Posts: 3,394	it does increase the MPG alot.. because it makes the fuel burn better.. you need less fuel for the same burn... because there is less waste.. __________________ Sold the yaris... rocking an 89 vw cabriolet now :)

10-19-2008, 10:27 PM	#7
Sodium Duck ╚══════════RN Drives: 2008 Liftback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Western Mass. Posts: 999	Well......... when BailOut buys one, then I will... lol __________________ 42.88

10-19-2008, 10:37 PM	#8
TinyGiant Tiny Giant Clothing View User's Garage Drives: 2008 Blazing Blue Yaris 3D LB Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rochester, NH Posts: 3,394	you can build it for $40 worth of home depot goodies .. the plans are free on the site i posted. (Smack the guy who makes them) is all about free information and doesnt charge for the info and plans on how to build them. The money from the ones he builds goes to the car he's working on to work 100% off water :) __________________ Sold the yaris... rocking an 89 vw cabriolet now :)

10-19-2008, 10:40 PM	#9
Sodium Duck ╚══════════RN Drives: 2008 Liftback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Western Mass. Posts: 999	Well, if it costs 40 bucks to make, then I'd do it. If it does, and I get a major boost in MPG, then I'll go up to NH and buy you a beer. If it doesn't... well I get about 40MPG, I'll go up there and you buy me a beer lol. I'll check up on the plans later and see what's involved. __________________ 42.88

10-19-2008, 10:48 PM	#11
Sodium Duck ╚══════════RN Drives: 2008 Liftback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Western Mass. Posts: 999	hahaha, FTW... new meaning for that acronym now lol Rootbeer it is! __________________ 42.88

10-22-2008, 07:36 PM	#12
bnther36 Drives: 07 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: Mich Posts: 84	I would be interested to see how this works out. Personally, I think the best way to do this would be to set up a solar panel on the garage, generate the hydrogen from the solar panel instead of an alternator, store it in a used scuba-tank, move the tank into the car and then pipe it into the breather. I think the concept of hydrogen is sound, I just don't know if running it off of the alternator isn't counter-productive My 2 cents

10-22-2008, 08:22 PM	#13
TinyGiant Tiny Giant Clothing View User's Garage Drives: 2008 Blazing Blue Yaris 3D LB Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Rochester, NH Posts: 3,394	there was a guy who did the storage route __________________ Sold the yaris... rocking an 89 vw cabriolet now :)

07-17-2009, 08:13 AM	#14
tiiams Drives: 2007 Yaris sedan S Pearl Black Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Dexter, NM Posts: 5	Has anyone installed a hho system in there car yet, i have one of the first yaris 4 doors that entered the states i get 40+ mpg. My warranty expires in 10,000 miles and i am looking at building and installing water for gas system. Has anyone else done it yet?

07-17-2009, 12:57 PM	#15
jambo101 Drives: yaris 08 sedan Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Montreal Canada Posts: 1,286	With all the clamor to get better fuel economy its curious why the major car companies with their billion dollar research and development departments never played with this idea or if they did why didnt they install it on their cars.Any links to substantiated testing of this system?

07-17-2009, 02:31 PM	#16
talnlnky Audio Junky Drives: 08 liftback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Spokane, Wa Posts: 1,412	prolly law issues, and money... it all comes down to money. Even if it doesn't increase mpg... if it reduces cost per mile at the same time of reducing emissions that is a big improvement. MPG doesn't tell the whole story... Cost Per Mile is what actually matters. I got better mpg's in washington than oregon last summer due to the difference of E10 Additive in oregon's gas.... but washington's was also more expensive... so when gas was $4ish a gallon it was a wash.... with gas being cheaper... the E10 in oregon isn't as good... but i'm sure by the end of summer it'll be back on top in terms of cost per mile. the equation to figure out is pretty easy... Gas price per gallon /mpg i.e. $3/40mpg = $.075 or 7.5cents per mile $40 isn't very much... if that's the only cost... if there are recurring costs however... it makes it much harder, and takes much longer to pay for itself. I think the biggest question is... how easy (read: how expensive) is it to mod the ecu to allow the lean mixture. __________________

07-17-2009, 09:42 PM	#17
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	Methanol in fuel produces free hydrogen that's said to confuse O2 sensors. I don't know what effect it has on the sensor.

07-18-2009, 10:31 AM	#18
YarisDude Drives: Yaris Hatchback Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Lebanon, Ohio Posts: 29	If you do the physics, you loose more energy than you gain. The are losses in energy conversion, mechanical to electrical energy (alternator/belt - heat) and electrical-chemical losses in electrolysis (breaking the H and O bonds in the water). Accurately accounting for these conversion losses will show that you have no gain. Currently there is no way of invalidating the laws of thermodynamics, it would be nice to produce a perpetual motion machine out of my Yaris. If you can get the hydrogen for free you may have something - perhaps as a waste product from manufacturing. Perhaps I should get some chickens and use the poop to generate methane and bottle it to run my car, as I side product I get fresh eggs and meat. Blast, I still have to buy the chicken feed.