Aveo = GM = Followers not leaders

[Thirty-Nine]

Originally Posted by bobby

Why do people buy them??

Aveos are inexpensive cars with warranty. Some people (and no, I'm not talking about thebarber), also see the "bowtie" and automatically think "American." Yes, the profits do go to Chevrolet. Keep in mind GM owns 50% of Daewoo.

The Aveo at least puts GM in the small car game. A leader? Nope. However, Chevy sells a decent amount of the little Aveo.

[thebarber]

Originally Posted by Thirty-Nine

Aveos are inexpensive cars with warranty. Some people (and no, I'm not talking about thebarber), also see the "bowtie" and automatically think "American." Yes, the profits do go to Chevrolet. Keep in mind GM owns 50% of Daewoo.

The Aveo at least puts GM in the small car game. A leader? Nope. However, Chevy sells a decent amount of the little Aveo.

at least GM is tryin....*cough*chrysler*cough*

[bobby]

GM mostly sells the Aveo to rental fleets. Employee discounts aside, I think most people who plunk down hard-earned moolah on an Aveo are a pretty unsophisticated (automotively, speaking) bunch. Think about it...you are spending your money on a car which does not handle well, has no power, gets (at best) mediocre gas mileage, has done poorly in crash tests, has LOUSY resale value, and people giggle about you behind your back. (Could anybody read the reviews on the Aveo, and do a lil' online research and STILL decide to buy an Aveo? Really?) Worse yet, if you finance the car you can add INTEREST charges to the total cost of the car which has little value after you've finished paying off the loan!

The Aveo is certainly an investment! A bad one.

I'd advise somebody to buy a basic Yaris or even an Accent before I'd ever advise somebody to buy an Aveo.

[tuckevalastin]

Originally Posted by bobby

GM mostly sells the Aveo to rental fleets. Employee discounts aside, I think most people who plunk down hard-earned moolah on an Aveo are a pretty unsophisticated (automotively, speaking) bunch. Think about it...you are spending your money on a car which does not handle well, has no power, gets (at best) mediocre gas mileage, has done poorly in crash tests, has LOUSY resale value, and people giggle about you behind your back. (Could anybody read the reviews on the Aveo, and do a lil' online research and STILL decide to buy an Aveo? Really?) Worse yet, if you finance the car you can add INTEREST charges to the total cost of the car which has little value after you've finished paying off the loan!

The Aveo is certainly an investment! A bad one.

I'd advise somebody to buy a basic Yaris or even an Accent before I'd ever advise somebody to buy an Aveo.

I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by tuckevalastin

I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

scion xA is even worse... at least the yaris is a "trendy" car because of gas mileage.. the xA has been hated even by toyota since its debut on US soil.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts.

Apparently you've never been in a Union or barring that weren't out of one long enough to realize their "rap".

Unions thrive on discontent, and if there is none some will be provided. One Union, I believe the IBEW, used to distribute a book called the "Troublemaker's Guide". Literally a Bible on how to stoke discontent, hobble production and create the kind of antagonism needed to entrench a Union.

During a recent "organization attempt" where I work the biggest malcontents were the union boosters. They figured once the union got in they would get "super seniority" since they would run for union president.


The "Management Arriving in Jaguars" is a red herring, more so since at GM you are strongly discouraged from buying other maker's wares.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

In that case, since we "need Health Care" why not provide every American with guaranteed housing and three meals a day? Add to this guaranteed Veterinary Care and we're treating American citizens like livestock.


Seriously... I worked in kidney dialysis in the US. I've seen the Promised Land. Kidney Dialysis is a human right in the US. Nobody, whether they have a million in the bank or don't have a pot to piss in, get their turn.

The patients sit at most a few feet from one another. They are packed in like sardines most of the time. Since the dialysis machines are computer controlled you cannot use cell phones or computers.

Watch TV, maybe read a book, or lay there. You may not sleep since you could die under treatment.

Ventilation tends to be poor because ambient temps are important to keep the machines warm and the patients stable. So if someone shits themselves you will smell it. Someone dies you will see it. If someone starts to rant, and most clinics have at least one "screamer" you will hear it.

You will see the doctor at most twice a week, for a few minutes. Clinics are required to have a dietitian and social worker. In one clinic where I worked the Social Worker was written up for counseling patients - he was rejoined that his job was to push government services onto the patients, not be there to counsel them.

What used to get me slapping my knees with amusement was the dietitian advising patients to "put another streak on the grill" in order to increase their protein (the machines rip that out of you). Nobody told the poor thing that most kidney dialysis patients do not work (it's an instant SSI check) and most cannot afford steak on a daily basis.

DOQI guidelines requires "holds" on Epoetin Alpha to keep the hematocrit below normal. This is to ensure a minimal destruction of red blood cells. Forget any strenuous activity, you can't handle it. I've watched patients argue with nurses over such holds, which must be enforced since the clinic won't get reimbursed for the EPO if they go above DOQI guidelines.

EPO costs ninety bucks a dose. The courts have ruled that the company that makes it, AMgen, has a defacto monopoly in the US. Transkaryotics, which makes a version of epoetin alpha, did not have Amgen's lawyers.

You are limited to 32 ounces of fluid per day, including your food. This low intake is to balance out the fluids. You will ALWAYS be thirsty. If you "fluid abuse" you will be "pulled on" with the machine and will cramp. The cramps are excruciatingly painful.

You can't even die with dignity. When you "code" you'll be ripped out of your chair, tossed on the floor and "worked" right in front of everyone.

I live in horror of such a "system" on a nationwide basis.


To really get me raging, ask me about my trevails in getting a new kind of data base to analyze trends of dialyser use. In order to use it I had to obtain an FDA 503c certificate, which I could not afford. I also would have had to obtain liability insurance, which I also could not afford.

There is a reason that US medical services are so expensive - grotesque bureaucracy and Tort Lottery. Putting things onto Big Brother's billfold will not change these realities.


The vast majority of Americans have health insurance. Most of us are happy with it. Most of us rely upon it. Most of us don't want to exchange it for the equivalent of a shoddy, USSR type of medical service.

I also reject the notion that government provided health services are a "human right" and are "moral". What is immoral are the compromises that the American people accept, especially the Rent Seeking by Doctors, Lawyers and other "professionals" atop an FDA which is geared more towards Risk Aversion than Progress and growth of knowledge.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

My recognition comes to the bank twice a month. If I can't make that count what will a lump sum payment or pension do for me? Especially if I... retire. The horror!

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management".

We had an attempted Organization where I work. The vote was 25 percent for and 75 percent against. The management where I work are at times clueless and arrogant, that's their prerogative, they have to live with the consequences.

People voted against the Union not for the management.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple.

Attitude isn't as relevant as deeds. I've met workers who felt that managers were clueless, stupid, out of touch, and even "lacked souls". That did not affect their work, just how they related to managers.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it.

The "US System" is so diverse and varied that one cannot make such a generalization. One the most horrible places I ever worked was a fifty employee company. One of the best was a Fortune 10 company.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Most Japanese companies do.

Go look up "Karoshi". Loyalty works both ways.

Gene

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by tuckevalastin

I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

"Everyone"? No. A few? Probably.

I'm learning that it's not the size of the car but the spirit of the car and the skills and spirit of the driver.

Gene

[tuckevalastin]

A lot more than a few....

[bobby]

Originally Posted by tuckevalastin

I hope you know that is what everyone that isn't a Yaris owner says about the Yaris..

I don't agree. The Yaris gets great gas mileage, has Toyota's reputation for reliability (in fact, Consumer Reports rats the Yaris as "81% more reliable than average") and has high resale value. If people equate the Yaris in the same way as the Aveo....well, they're just dumb.

[tuckevalastin]

as I said, that isn't a Yaris owner... to everyone else its just a cheap car

[mimelio]

Daewoo Lanos renamed and restyled...That is all the Chevrolet Aveo is.

[Thirty-Nine]

Originally Posted by mimelio

Daewoo Lanos renamed and restyled...That is all the Chevrolet Aveo is.

No, Daewoo Kalos (which we didn't get in the U.S.).

And by the way, what's with the "poor crash test ratings" people keep talking about?

The 2007 Aveo 5 got a five-star frontal crash rating (driver and passenger) and a four-star rating for side-impact crashes. (See here)

It also received and "Average" from the IIHS (www.iihs.org) for frontal offset crash.

So, it looks like one thing the Aveo does have going for it is good crash test ratings.

[TLyttle]

I'm sure that there is no point in trying to debate Gene W. here regarding either unions or health care; clearly his experiences supersede mine, regardless of what mine may be. Suffice to day that as a long-time Steelworker, the only real difficulties I had with the shops I worked in had to do with Management who would not listen to the workers in the shop. During my career (retired now) I was able to tell how long a company would last simply be watching Management's attitudes, union or non-union. Normally, well-run companies did not require unions.

I, too, have seen the US medical system, and indeed the experience of dialysis, as described, sounds barbaric, yet I have heard of no such barbarism here in Canada. I worked with handicapped children in a Government facility, and the concentration was on the health and progress of the children, rather than budgets, managerial paperwork, or (!) profits. There is NO PLACE for profit in a medical system; making money off the disadvantaged is a blasphemy of the worst type IMHO.

I did meet a vet in the US who had a trunkful of medical equipment that he had to buy, then take to the hospital so that he wouldn't have to buy the stuff again from his pension money. Another blasphemy in my mind.

I saw my first Japanese-built car in 1962 or so, at an auto show. I knew right then that the US auto industry was in trouble, not because the car was inexpensive, or even offered good performance. The workmanship was superb, the innovations outstanding; better than anything out there on the floor, American or European. In my opinion, very little has changed since then, and all the anecdotes here on the Yaris site kinda prove that.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I'm sure that there is no point in trying to debate Gene W. here regarding either unions or health care; clearly his experiences supersede mine, regardless of what mine may be.

One of the things I'm really good at is sarcasm. Want to play?

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Suffice to day that as a long-time Steelworker, the only real difficulties I had with the shops I worked in had to do with Management who would not listen to the workers in the shop. During my career (retired now) I was able to tell how long a company would last simply be watching Management's attitudes, union or non-union. Normally, well-run companies did not require unions.

Guess so.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I, too, have seen the US medical system, and indeed the experience of dialysis, as described, sounds barbaric, yet I have heard of no such barbarism here in Canada.

The second highest per capita casualties from SARS occurred in Canada. The Government packed 'em in Wards like sardines, where they died in larger numbers than anywhere else except China.

Canada also has a heavy budget deficit due to their "health care".

The high budget deficit occurs in spite of a system which is not infested with money hungry attorneys who sue people right and left, an FDA which makes risk aversion its highest goal and I imagine that the Canadian public doesn't seem to think it has a constitutional right to abuse their bodies and then get them "repaired" with cost being no option.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I worked with handicapped children in a Government facility, and the concentration was on the health and progress of the children, rather than budgets, managerial paperwork, or (!) profits.

I worked in a "not for profit" dialysis facility in the US for three years. Instead of being rated upon how effective we were the "management" rated us upon how the politically selected hack who "managed" the place felt about us. One day I was hauled into the office because one of her pets shoved me out of the way to do something and I got upset.

She said to me, "Well, reality is perception".

This same paragon of logic fired one of my colleagues for reporting that an RN was lighting candles in her office. When a Government agency reacted she said, "Yeah, I fired him for being a whistleblower". In the US this is illegal, so she had to offer my former colleague his job back. All he wanted was to have his termination retracted, which they did.

I don't want to hear about the glories of non-profit organizations. Been there, done that, did not get a t-shirt.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I saw my first Japanese-built car in 1962 or so, at an auto show. I knew right then that the US auto industry was in trouble, not because the car was inexpensive, or even offered good performance. The workmanship was superb, the innovations outstanding; better than anything out there on the floor, American or European. In my opinion, very little has changed since then, and all the anecdotes here on the Yaris site kinda prove that.

Anyone who has read about the story of Preston Tucker realizes that US industry has been in trouble since the 1950s.

Gene

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

There is NO PLACE for profit in a medical system

Patent non-sense. If there is no profit there is no interest. If there is no interest there is no incentive to invest and furnish capital.

In which case you're at the mercy of bureaucrats, saints and do-gooders to get the money you need to buy supplies, train and weather the slow times.

Bureaucrats are in it for their own security and careers. There are damn few saints around these days. Do-gooders have this distressing tendency to stick to you and never go away - they end up costing you more than a business person, who makes their profit and then leaves you.

Originally Posted by TLyttle

making money off the disadvantaged is a blasphemy of the worst type IMHO.

Blasphemy is a religious term. Profit is good. Taking advantage of people is not good. You can do the first without doing the second, it's being done every day all over the world.

I might add, and I think this is important, that giving people things that they ought to get for themselves, is not helping them. You weaken them, make them dependent upon you, and in doing so you impoverish them. Worst of all, you empower "do-gooders" who then lay claim to the wealth of others and abuse their power because they are full of their own goodness.

We've seen what happens when do-gooders run things. Behind every evil person who slaughtered millions of people in the 20th century was a set of good intentions. The communists wanted to end the exploitation of man by man. The fascists wanted to regain national glory and give people a sense of their own worth. Both laid waste to nations, murdered millions of people and risked destroying the whole human race.

Give me someone who wants to make a profit. They're honest and their aims are limited to their own interests. Provided that they do not hijack the State they're far more honorable than any do-gooder.

Gene

[TLyttle]

My, you ARE a curmudgeon, ain't ya? No point in being your straw man here, Gene, I learned my values, you learned yours...

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

My, you ARE a curmudgeon, ain't ya? No point in being your straw man here,

I wasn't the one who called taking a profit in medical services "Blasphemy". Perhaps you need to take a step back and examine why such incendiary language was called for here?

Originally Posted by TLyttle

I learned my values, you learned yours...

The limits of relativism end when someone points a gun at someone else. Whether this is done as a private sector transaction or under the color of Law is a germane point.

Gene

[bobby]

The Aveo is junky.