Aveo = GM = Followers not leaders

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by Yarisforpirates

Is it just me? or does the new Aveo concept look like Chevy just took a Scion xD, slapped on a new front fascia and rebadged it with their logo. I mean dont get me wrong, I love the way which the Japanese style their cars, but i also love the style American cars used to sport. Its like all modern American cars have lost that blend aesthetically pleasing, functionalty, and durability. Not I just noticed this, but don't you ever think enough is enough? Our country's auto makers need to step up their game insted of just copying others.

Aveo concept:http://www.ridelust.com/wp-content/uploads/aveo.jpg
Scion xD: http://paultan.org/gallery/d/3974-2/...customized.gif

What are you thinking?

The new Aveo looks more like as mentioned above (a matrix), or maybe even a fit... and that new toyota/scion think looks like an HHR that got a few inches removed from the top half of the car.

[talnlnky]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I don't see any connection between CEO compensation and the performance of a company.

I have yet to see any studies that show CAUSALITY between CEO pay and a company's performance, as in if you go above twenty to one that the company suffers. Exxon-Mobil's CEO makes a huge amount of money and that firm, at least until recently, was doing fine.

I don't think that Toyota's CEO is paid hundreds of times more money than their janitorial staff. Most Japanese firms have far more modest CEO compensation than US firms.

However that ratio doesn't begin to show the differences from Toyota and, say, GM or Exxon-Mobil.

What does seem to matter is the ability of a company to respond to market demands and to satisfy consumer needs.

Toyota focuses on the market and consumer needs, from the CEO down to the lowliest worker. When gas prices went high this summer they were able to re-tool a line in THREE WEEKS to make smaller cars.

Could GM do this? Dunno.

One does wonder what GM focuses on. There are probably staff at GM, both hourly and salaried, who care very much about customers. I suspect, given how GM has been doing and the kind of stuff that they sell (I was a Chevy and Pontiac guy until my first Honda in 2000) that there is a lot more at work here than CEO compensation. Especially a toxic sense of complacency amongst management and workers.


Mentioning such ratios tend to inflame envy and anger, especially in workers who think "Management is stealing our money!". Such an entitlement mentality does not serve the customer or even the worker's long term interests.

This all being said, I wouldn't object to a CEO making 100 times more than the Janitor, but if I were a shareholder they damn well better be earning their keep.

I think most of here would agree that the CEO of GM isn't earning their money.

Gene

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by talnlnky

So.... america is all about capitalism... and in a capitalistic society... Those CEO's and high ranking officers in those american car company's...

1: Should not be in their current position because they have not proven that they can run a company with performance on par with the rest of the auto market.

2: should be paid much less than they are, because the salaries they earn are for high quality, highly effective CEO's and officers.

Okay, fine, I agree.

Here's my question in reply - whose business is it if the CEO of GM makes 100 or a 1,000 times more than the contract janitors who clean the offices each day? Don't the shareholders of GM, the real owners, have that say?

If you're gonna say that it's about capitalism you cannot dictate salaries, especially the Government.

Besides, America isn't about capitalism. The recent Bank Bail Out is proof of that. We're about Lawyer Capitalism, as Buckminster Fuller put it so well. By that he meant that Corporations entrench themselves into a market and then use the power of Law to keep competitors down or out.

If GM could have stopped Toyota in its tracks like they did Preston Tucker there would be no Yaris. Instead Toyota keeps on knocking them out of the park - except for the oil sludge issue in some motors - and GM is now in second place and fading. The real capitalism, flawed as it is, is in the International Market. For now.

Gene

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Hold on, I gave both sides of this argument their due credit. Right? Go up and re-read my post.... in fact I slapped GM management first.

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

1. Guaranteed Benefit Pension - it's like having the Mafia as your silent partner. You had a bad month? Screw you! Pay! You are carrying six or seven retirees for every full time worker? Screw you! Pay!

2. Job Banks - This, I've found out, applies to both salaried and hourly GM workers. Basically you're paid to sit on your ass, read papers and do other things.

3. Full Boat Medical Coverage - GM pays $11 million a year... for Viagra. No shit.

4. Union Content - Not happy to just make cars, the UAW demands that a certain "content" of each car that they make must also be made by Union workers. Come already!

Sorry, any Union that plays these games in a competitive global market deserves what it gets. While the UAW plays these featherbedding games Toyota does the following...

1. Japan has a socialist health system.
2. Retirees from Toyota are given a lump sum payment on retirement.
3. There is no Union at Toyota.

Gene

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

[engelm_]

Aveo FTL..... Side vents... (puke)

[bobby]

My MOUNTAIN BIKE has better resale value than an Aveo!

[rningonfumes]

Back up your slave labor comment.

[TLyttle]

No shouting match intended here, my point is that it happens for both management and union, and it will eventually lead to the demise of the US (and Canadian) auto manufacture. If the union wasn't watching management come to work in Jaguars etc, they wouldn't fight for the crap that management gets in their contracts. Either way, the US auto industry loses.

IMHO, any and every civilised country should have a "socialist" health system. We are all human beings.

Lump sum payments or monthly, a retiree MUST be recognised for his service to the company, no flaw there as I see it.

Lastly, unions would disappear completely if management was fair. My company was approached a few times by unions to unionise it. Each one of them left without success, simply because they had nothing to offer our guys that they didn't have already: we looked on that as "good management". OTOH, I have spoken to managers (worked for a few) whose attitude towards workers had to do with contempt, purre and simple. The bigger the company, the less likely one is to find compassionate, intelligent management. I know what it takes to keep employees, and the US system fails to recognise it. Most Japanese companies do.

[Reddog99]

Let's talk about some of the silly things that the UAW demanded, and got, from GM.

I'd blame management for these silly things. The union has been just as irresponsible, but in the end analysis, management is to blame. They're robbing the company even more.

[Tamago]

Originally Posted by rningonfumes

Back up your slave labor comment.

http://gnn.tv/threads/31928/Good_ol_...g_you_go_green

Originally Posted by the article

In 2002, Kenichi Uchino, 30, died while working at the “green” Tsutsumi plant that assembles the Prius. During the 13th hour of a routine 14-hour day, Uchino collapsed on the shop floor of the internationally lauded “sustainable” factory, which uses sulfur-oxide-eating paint and boasts 5 percent emissions reductions. A Japanese court ruled that Uchino’s death was caused by exhaustion from overwork.

[tuckevalastin]

Originally Posted by bobby

I would NEVER buy an American-made car, (too junky!) and I suspect most people reading this would not either....

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Tamago

don't forget toyota's slave labor..

All of the folks I've talked to who knew folks who worked for Toyota said that competition to work there was fierce and that they were quite proud to work for Toyota.

If you plan to complain about "Karoshi" let me remind you that MANY OF US out here work long hours to satisfy our customers. I put twelve hours of OT in last week, probably that many this week. You gotta do what you gotta do.

Gene

[Nigal]

Originally Posted by bobselectric

I think the Aveo is more of a Matrix

+1

I actually like it. Looks good.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by tuckevalastin

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars

Not to be a pedantic pain the butt, but the Matrix/Vibe is partially made in the US. The subcomponents are all Toyota and are mostly "globally sourced".

I know this because my employer offers a discount for cars made by their customers. The Unified Plant in Fremont happens to be one of the few places in the US where my employer does not supply subcomponents and hence I would not get a discount.

Gene

[bobby]

I assume by American-made you mean made by one of the American car companies since the Aveo is made in Korea and the Matrix is made in the US....

And if you do mean made by an American car company well then I would LOVE to buy more than a few American-made cars


I guess I should clarify: I only want to buy cars that are made/designed in Japan. I only want to buy cars made by Toyota, Honda, Lexus (in my dreams!)

The fact that GM feels comfortable to put their badge on the Aveo, (complete piece of junk, reminds me of a modern-day Chevette) makes me want to RUN from ever buying anything from GM. Why would they want the Chevy name on such a junky car??

BUY JAPANESE! BUY JAPANESE! BUY JAPANESE!

[thebarber]

vibe is made in cali, the matrix in canada, camry in the US, rav4 in canada

i had a matrix xrs...i was only going to buy a car MADE in japan...hence the yaris

so much hate for US manufacturers....wow, but this IS a forum for the toyota yaris - - so its really not TOO odd to see hate for anything but a toyota.

we've got an aveo and a yaris in the driveway...both run fine. the aveo isnt as good on gas, and ya, the resale sucks.....but its paid-off, so its not going anywhere anytime soon....unless we start having major problems with it....

[bobby]

Just curious, why did you buy the Aveo? Maybe I missed it, but I have never read a good review on that car. I'm always curious what motivates people to buy cars which are so resoundingly panned by car magazines, on-line auto reviews, and Consumer Reports. The Cobalt and the Pontiac G5 are too pretty awful cars which come to mind.

Why do people buy them??

[thebarber]

Originally Posted by bobby

Just curious, why did you buy the Aveo? Maybe I missed it, but I have never read a good review on that car. I'm always curious what motivates people to buy cars which are so resoundingly panned by car magazines, on-line auto reviews, and Consumer Reports. The Cobalt and the Pontiac G5 are too pretty awful cars which come to mind.

Why do people buy them??

GM employee discount, mainly. my wife bought it for her mom, originally...but she no longer needed it, so we took it back. its a good little car, imo. havent had any real problems with it at all. interior isnt quite as nice as the yaris, but i like the seats better. would we buy another one? not w/ the old e-tec, thats for sure.....and i really dont like the looks of the new aveo, either. but would i buy an 09 yaris?....negative. equally as ug.