Yaris Sedan Deadening and Sound system upgrade

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by TOLMACH

We want to see update on your project!! Go and do it !! )))))))))))

OK, here we go, sit down and check it out! I have 2 updates:


The most important, isn't the little subwoofer, it's about front stage and that my MIDS are gone for now! YES that's what you read... I did disconnect my mids (so good by to all the work on the a-pillars), and this is why:

(I wrote this a few weeks ago, but didn't wanted to post until now)...

Now I understand how to achieve good front stage, image, depth for a great SQ system. (at least to a degree level of my knowledge)

After trying every position and aiming possible ending up with my mids at the a-pillars tuned and every thing... sounds amazing in every way, but I learn many other facts... and how to improve it.

My HU let's me switch back and forth from a 2 way to a 3 way in a few seconds, (Mute the mids change x-over points for mid/bass and tweeters at the same time) incredible I can make my 2 way sound better without the MIDS and depending on the song sometimes I can't tell the difference, and this is with just a flip of a switch. My conclusion is that PLD's play a huge roll for SQ, Time Alignment it's a must in junction with EQ.

Me going from 3 way to 2 way:

1 "MUTE" mids
2 tweeters go down from 8kHz to 6.3kHz (HPF)
3 Lows go up from 1.6Hz to 6.3kHz (LPF)

In some songs I can tell the 3 way is crisper and the stage is up a little bit but I can tell... a little harsh with high frequencies (must be the reflections from the windshield) but.... a narrower stage! and a less focused center image (2 different drivers trying to accomplish a good image gave me a muddy center image), so I start wondering why? and I knew that...

PLD's plays a big factor even if it's just inches: my mids and lows (in doors) have the same PLDs that is one of the reasons when I go from 3 way to 2 way I barely feel a difference or improvement from one to the other.

Also check that when I have the MIDs playing in the a-pillars the distance between components is shorter, so in my 3 way configuration with mids in the A-pillars my stage is "SMALLER-NARROWER, NOT AS WIDE"

Also to compensate for that smaller stage the x-over point goes up (in my case to 1.6kHz) this defeats all the performance of a good mid with the ability to play low around 200Hz, almost any cheap speaker can do from 1.6 to 6.3/8kHz where the tweeter picks up, this brings my Lows (6.5" drivers in doors) to go from 63Hz up to 1.6kHz so my stage grows up but my TA starts to struggle, remember that TA doesn't really mater after 2kHz and I loose my point source! by having to divide the frequencies from 200Hz to around 6kHz to aloud point source.

So in my case, I don't have space to move my 6.5" drivers to the kick area, but I can use my 3" MID as a point of source into the A-frame, this will make my stage wider and deeper away from me (that's what you want in SQ), why?... PLD's are more efficient when placing a point source (MID) as far forward possible! so in the near future that's what it's going to be, my MIDs will go in the kick area.

As of today, I've been driving and playing with my set up, for more than 5K miles, learning and experimenting, most of the time (90%) playing my music with the MIDs in "MUTE" position, just because sounds better, I can improve my set up by re-installing my MIDs in the kick area.

And I know in Music and SQ/car it's all relative to the listener, What I write here is my personal opinion from many hours of playing around, reading and experimenting, but you've seen my install, from spheres to a-pillars, and I enjoy sharing with you my thoughts, I'm open to any opinion, I'm learning this stuff and believe me I enjoy every tiny bit of this install, trail and error got me where I'm today!


Now with the I6SW:
This one is not going to "MUTE" no way, I finish the enclosure so I could try and play with it, (so it's not completely finished)
It's late so I didn't crank it up, I did have to move some settings in my HU like time alignment and bump up the db a little bit, even with a new woofer and at low volume hits very nice, goes low and merges very well with the LOWS, so let me play with it for 20-30 hours (break in period) and will update about it, so far at low volume sounds very positive, we'll see with more watts, volume, road noise, etc... how responds! (just for the record I have a big smile on my face )



I was at my sisters place and I did not resist to take a picture [with my cell phone!]



D.

[TOLMACH]

Originally Posted by derickveliz2

OK, here we go, sit down and check it out! I have 2 updates:


The most important, isn't the little subwoofer, it's about front stage and that my MIDS are gone for now! YES that's what you read... I did disconnect my mids (so good by to all the work on the a-pillars), and this is why:

(I wrote this a few weeks ago, but didn't wanted to post until now)...

Now I understand how to achieve good front stage, image, depth for a great SQ system. (at least to a degree level of my knowledge)

After trying every position and aiming possible ending up with my mids at the a-pillars tuned and every thing... sounds amazing in every way, but I learn many other facts... and how to improve it.

My HU let's me switch back and forth from a 2 way to a 3 way in a few seconds, (Mute the mids change x-over points for mid/bass and tweeters at the same time) incredible I can make my 2 way sound better without the MIDS and depending on the song sometimes I can't tell the difference, and this is with just a flip of a switch. My conclusion is that PLD's play a huge roll for SQ, Time Alignment it's a must in junction with EQ.

Me going from 3 way to 2 way:

1 "MUTE" mids
2 tweeters go down from 8kHz to 6.3kHz (HPF)
3 Lows go up from 1.6Hz to 6.3kHz (LPF)

In some songs I can tell the 3 way is crisper and the stage is up a little bit but I can tell... a little harsh with high frequencies (must be the reflections from the windshield) but.... a narrower stage! and a less focused center image (2 different drivers trying to accomplish a good image gave me a muddy center image), so I start wondering why? and I knew that...

PLD's plays a big factor even if it's just inches: my mids and lows (in doors) have the same PLDs that is one of the reasons when I go from 3 way to 2 way I barely feel a difference or improvement from one to the other.

Also check that when I have the MIDs playing in the a-pillars the distance between components is shorter, so in my 3 way configuration with mids in the A-pillars my stage is "SMALLER-NARROWER, NOT AS WIDE"

Also to compensate for that smaller stage the x-over point goes up (in my case to 1.6kHz) this defeats all the performance of a good mid with the ability to play low around 200Hz, almost any cheap speaker can do from 1.6 to 6.3/8kHz where the tweeter picks up, this brings my Lows (6.5" drivers in doors) to go from 63Hz up to 1.6kHz so my stage grows up but my TA starts to struggle, remember that TA doesn't really mater after 2kHz and I loose my point source! by having to divide the frequencies from 200Hz to around 6kHz to aloud point source.

So in my case, I don't have space to move my 6.5" drivers to the kick area, but I can use my 3" MID as a point of source into the A-frame, this will make my stage wider and deeper away from me (that's what you want in SQ), why?... PLD's are more efficient when placing a point source (MID) as far forward possible! so in the near future that's what it's going to be, my MIDs will go in the kick area.

As of today, I've been driving and playing with my set up, for more than 5K miles, learning and experimenting, most of the time (90%) playing my music with the MIDs in "MUTE" position, just because sounds better, I can improve my set up by re-installing my MIDs in the kick area.

And I know in Music and SQ/car it's all relative to the listener, What I write here is my personal opinion from many hours of playing around, reading and experimenting, but you've seen my install, from spheres to a-pillars, and I enjoy sharing with you my thoughts, I'm open to any opinion, I'm learning this stuff and believe me I enjoy every tiny bit of this install, trail and error got me where I'm today!


Now with the I6SW:
This one is not going to "MUTE" no way, I finish the enclosure so I could try and play with it, (so it's not completely finished)
It's late so I didn't crank it up, I did have to move some settings in my HU like time alignment and bump up the db a little bit, even with a new woofer and at low volume hits very nice, goes low and merges very well with the LOWS, so let me play with it for 20-30 hours (break in period) and will update about it, so far at low volume sounds very positive, we'll see with more watts, volume, road noise, etc... how responds! (just for the record I have a big smile on my face )



I was at my sisters place and I did not resist to take a picture [with my cell phone!]



D.

Interesting results you have.. Normally people never go back to 2 ways system after playing with 3 way ones.

I usually do not care a lot about the sound stage and imaging, as IMO both these concepts are overly exegerrated in car audio.. (have some experiance with EMMA competitions) .. I am more concerned with getting proper tonal accuracy and spectral balance.. again.. that said, somehow (quite unexpectedly) I have gotten quite a nice stage im my yaris.. if I close my eyes, sound stage seems something like 10 or 12 inches wider that my A-pillars..

we both understand what midranges play a huge role in staging.. and yours are looking more towards each other while mine are somewhat more pointed towards the front listeners.. I was kinda suspecting you'd get a much better stage..

again.. these are just my thoughts

pls, keep us informed about your next experiments

[derickveliz2]

Originally Posted by TOLMACH

Interesting results you have.. Normally people never go back to 2 ways system after playing with 3 way ones.

I usually do not care a lot about the sound stage and imaging, as IMO both these concepts are overly exegerrated in car audio.. (have some experiance with EMMA competitions) .. I am more concerned with getting proper tonal accuracy and spectral balance.. again.. that said, somehow (quite unexpectedly) I have gotten quite a nice stage im my yaris.. if I close my eyes, sound stage seems something like 10 or 12 inches wider that my A-pillars..

we both understand what midranges play a huge role in staging.. and yours are looking more towards each other while mine are somewhat more pointed towards the front listeners.. I was kinda suspecting you'd get a much better stage..

again.. these are just my thoughts

pls, keep us informed about your next experiments

Thanks TOLMACH, the little 6.5 woofer makes a great SQ system, I should called "A personal SQ experience". Will keep you up to date!

2 or 3 way:
I'm not going with a 2 way, I'm going to end up with a 3way!, because of the physical proportions, geometry and cabin construction I'm going to use a 3 way, what I was saying is that because my Mids (in a-pillars) are at the same distance to my ears (PLDs) than my Lows in the OEM door location. What makes the 2 way sound wider because the Lows in doors are farther apart from each other, compare to the Mids in the a-pillars.

But to improve my system, I can move my Mids to the a-frame, farther distance I can get from my ears, this way my PLDs will be shorter by doing this I will get most of my 3 way system, better than what I have now.

I agree with proper tonal accuracy and spectral balance, but first I need to get physically everything in the right place.

I had my Mids at some point looking at the listeners (if you look back in this thread, or see photos below) and yes the stages seems wider, open a window and it's gone, I got the conclusion that the reflexion of the side windows was helping to wide the stage, but also was screwing my image by creating a "V" shape, for example when I play the 7 drum track (see image below). That is why I change my Mids to the a-pillar, Sqcomp advice me about putting in the a-frame, I should have listened to him! further and far apart is better.