Anyone working on tuning??

[acrbill]

It has already been proven that bolt ons and head porting are not much help. Some Scion guy tried all sorts of mods and only made a few HP for several thousand dollars outlay.

The head design is probably a limiting factor and the tune almost certainly is.
There is nothing you can do about the head design unless a head from another car would work.

A piggyback is probably not a good answer since most cannot control timing and change the rev limiter.

Lastly, saying the engine can handle x amount of HP since some guy with a turbo put it down does not mean the engine will survive an all out N/A build.
N/A motors (I'm talking about small 4 cyls.) need to spin to very high RPM's to make power. High RPM puts a lot of stress on internal parts.

[ChinoCharles]

Originally Posted by acrbill

A piggyback is probably not a good answer since most cannot control timing and change the rev limiter.

It is ambiguous, open-ended statements like this that make me slap my forehead. Probably... most... are you sure or are you just saying what you think and not what you know.

EDIT: OK, OK... that was kind of harsh, but do you see where I'm coming from? I know you know your shit Bill, but I'm not convinced you're speaking from experience on this car. If you do, please tell us what would go on the 1NZ first... that would solve a lot of problems!

And for the record, the goal is not to build this engine as N/A yet... I'm not sitting here saying that a 1NZ won't explode running 12:1 at 8500 RPM. I am saying it won't explode putting 120 to the ground as a daily driver, and I don't think it will from a 50 shot of nitrous done correctly, either. I'll let you guys know if I'm ever sure on the second part.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

It is ambiguous, open-ended statements like this that make me slap my forehead. Probably... most... are you sure or are you just saying what you think and not what you know.

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

[ChinoCharles]

Originally Posted by Moose

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

Sure, point taken. VVTi complicates shit to a point where some of the stuff you just talked about would be a bitch to design for this car, and in turn if it ever does hit the market it will be priced so high I'll lose interest instantly.

Bottom line is I need to lean out. Period. The only way I'm going to do that is with a piggyback, a dyno and a good tuner... there are other ways, but none offer you the customization of a piggyback.

With an intake, exhaust, header, cat removal, pulley kit, sticky rubber, lighter wheels, and a piggyback how much power do you guys think a Yaris would make and where would it put it in straight line, quarter mile speed? I already have my prediction. I'm curious to see if everyone is on the same page.

I promise you the aforementioned setup would be a fucking BLAST to drive on a TRD suspension. Even better on coilovers.

By the way, everything I mentioned really isn't that expensive... especially if you're getting some (or most) of the parts at a discount.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Moose

I can say, with the most certainty, that even the best piggybacks are nothing without extensive internal modifications to back them up. There's only so much that you can do with a stock cam profile, head, injectors, and the like.

That is not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true. If a piggyback is the only option we have, then that is what we have to deal with. Obviously some are better than others, but there are some very good products out there.

Ashley

[Dragonacc]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

That not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true.

Ashley

I think the biggest problem with piggybacks now is that a lot of new cars have "learning" ECUs. Your tune ends up getting messed up and it becomes an endless headache.

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't make any gains with bolt-ons with this car, just that the gains you will get aren't worth it IMO.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Dragonacc

I think the biggest problem with piggybacks now is that a lot of new cars have "learning" ECUs. Your tune ends up getting messed up and it becomes an endless headache.

I didn't mean to imply you couldn't make any gains with bolt-ons with this car, just that the gains you will get aren't worth it IMO.

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

[acrbill]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

I'm sure anyone in their right mind would take a 30% gain in WHP for $1,200. The problems is that 30whp is far fetched on a car that puts down less than 90 to the wheels.

Now I will go on the assumption that you threw out an arbitrary number.
If you could guarantee that you would see appreciable gains from headers,intakes and pulleys it might be worthwhile.

Here are the problems.

Header- The stocker is already a decent looking tubular piece and the aftermarket options look identical in design so I cannot imagine much if any gains in HP.

Cat-Your not going to gain anything here since all stock cats flow well.

Pulley- The ones I have seen are the same diameter as stock. The only difference is weight.

Exhaust pipe size probably isn't restrictive at near stock power levels.

[Dragonacc]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

All told you are gonna spend around $1000 - $1250 for intake, exhaust, header, highflow cat midpipe, pulley, and some method of tuning and get ~30 WHP. Is that worth it? That not a question to you directly, but to everyone as a whole. To some people it will, to others it won't.

There is something to be said for driving a well tuned car at ANY horsepower level. It just is more fun to drive, and when you get on it, it goes. You ask yourself why didn't the damn thing COME this way?

Some piggybacks are better than others at dealing with "learning" ECUs but that is a very valid point.

Depends on the brands you choose too. The TRD header alone uses most of that budget. You can definitely get all the parts on the list with that budget, but I'm not sure if it'll be 30whp. Guess we'll see when people start modding them to that point.

One other thing for people to remember is the possible loss of low end power. Opening up the intake and exhaust fully could really hurt the area under the curve. Again, gotta wait until people start doing the mods.

[Moose]

Originally Posted by largeorangefont

That is not really valid. You don't need upgraded internals to enjoy better driveability, more torque and better top end.

Of course the more mods you do to the car, the more you will squeeze out with proper tuning. But saying with "certainty" that a piggyback is useless unless you have heavy modificatons simply isnt true. If a piggyback is the only option we have, then that is what we have to deal with. Obviously some are better than others, but there are some very good products out there.

Ashley

I guess I should put it into perspective- when adding an ECU tuning program or piggyback programmer, I'm not doing it for the reasons you listed- I'm going for big power. I can't say that I've seen any significant gains (10 or more hp or tq) with a piggyback and just I/H/E. Cams and adjustable gears are, IMHO, the very least to get anything bigger out of a piggyback.

[largeorangefont]

Originally Posted by Moose

I guess I should put it into perspective- when adding an ECU tuning program or piggyback programmer, I'm not doing it for the reasons you listed- I'm going for big power. I can't say that I've seen any significant gains (10 or more hp or tq) with a piggyback and just I/H/E. Cams and adjustable gears are, IMHO, the very least to get anything bigger out of a piggyback.

Gotcha. I knew that is where you were going, however there are some people on here that are less informed that may not have the same perspective.

Weather its piggyback or a reflash, it is all just means to an end and picking the product that will work the best for your application.

Ashley

[acrbill]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

It is ambiguous, open-ended statements like this that make me slap my forehead. Probably... most... are you sure or are you just saying what you think and not what you know.

EDIT: OK, OK... that was kind of harsh, but do you see where I'm coming from? I know you know your shit Bill, but I'm not convinced you're speaking from experience on this car. If you do, please tell us what would go on the 1NZ first... that would solve a lot of problems!

How was my statement ambiguous or open ended? Have you ever worked with a piggy back? By design they work hand in hand with the stock ecu. If the stock ecu fights back then what good is it?

The timing I was referring to was not cam timing either. Ever wonder how a 10.5:1 motor could run on 87? The ecu obviously has a super conservative timing map. Timing is the key to making power.

The first thing I would try is to monitor timing with a gauge and see how higher octane fuel effects it. It might very well advance the curve a noticeable amount.

Running a wide band o2 sensor to see if there is any room to pull fuel and lean out the mix could also offer small gains and probably more MPG.

Ever wonder why I seem to be a downer whenever people post about making bolt on power?

I was part of the Dodge Neon crowd for several years and even though the Neons potential is far greater then the Yaris most people ended up very disillusioned after spending several thousands of dollars building all motor cars.

Its sort of like when your parents try and help you avoid making the same mistakes they did. Some people say that you have to let people make their own mistakes. I can't help it though. I hate to see people strive for the impossible.

The Yaris is what it is. Strap a supercharger on it and call it a day. You will feel a lot better about bolt on mods once you need the added airflow.

You can take this thread to 50 pages or until your fingertips are numb, you can even call me a know it all prick but that will not change the fact that you stand to lose a lot of money and time trying to extract a few HP.

You want to have fun with your Yaris? Buy a set of R-compound tires and head to your local auto-x.