New subcompacts for 2009, 2010

[ddongbap]

Gene is pretty oneway opinionated.

Anyways, wanting to end with last word with just about everything, I'll end there. Cause I'm immature about that.







I am TOTALLY down for one of those Fiestas.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by ddongbap

Gene is pretty oneway opinionated.

I own a Honda, a 1990 CRX DX. 190,000 miles. Out of warranty.

Last time I changed the oil on it I managed to rip the engine temp sensor plug off of the temp sensor. Yeah, you have to have a hoist to change the oil on a CRX, or have very skinny arms. Honda put the oil filter in the center of the block, right under the intake manifold. Swell, I had to replace the sensor boot in the street in the middle of winter. Fun.

You see, Ddongdap, in order to change that filter I had to lean over the car, balancing myself on the fender, and reach around the intake manifold. I didn't quite make it.

I've also changed the alternator and the radiator.

To remove the alternator you need to remove the driver side wheel and the CV joint. Alternately you can remove part of the engine cooling system. The last time I changed it I had to hammer out the bottom mounting pin. Honda thoughtfully cadmium plated it to reduce rust but they did not savvy that bolts scuff, removing the cadmium. They also did not realize that the position of the alternator causes road spray to deposit onto the pin. The combination causes the pins to rust into place. I needed a two pound hammer and a drift pin to pound out the mounting pin.

During my search for parts I discovered that the CRX for that year used one of four different kinds of Nippon-Denso alternators. I could not find one and had to have the one I had rebuilt. This was the FOURTH ALTERNATOR that this car consumed during its life. Apparently Honda put the car so close to the edge with respect to its electrical requirements that the hatchback defrost eat alternators. Brilliant!

To remove the radiator on CRX models with AC it is necessary to remove the manifolds for the AC condenser. Some idiot at Honda decided to sandwich the radiator between the AC manifold and the condenser assembly. To remove the radiator the first thing you do is remove the R-12 refrigerant from the AC system. Brilliant! Then you have to partially remove the AC system to remove the radiator. Brilliant!

I also had the celebrated "Honda Starter Relay problem". Honda in the late 1980s used carbs. When they shifted to their first FI systems rather than use an integrated relay they put in an extra one, in the passenger compartment near the driver's left knee. Your friendly Chilton manual does not specify this so I partially ripped out the fuse assy looking for it. Finally found the damn thing behind the change drawer.

The Mashuta produced relays were defective and had annular (ring shaped) cracks in their solder. This problem produced a condition where the Honda would start cold, run fine but when you parked it for short periods of time would fail to start (the relay wouldn't work to turn on the fuel pump). I spent a year dicking with it. Finally discovered an online article, removed the relay and reflowed the solder. Before I knew that this was the cause I had had to replace various electronic and hydraulic parts - I did not understand the problem you see.


Oh, no, Dongdap, I'm not quite finished yet. I saved the best for last.

Every 100,000 miles you have to change the timing belt. To change the timing belt in a Honda of that vintage your first remove the exhaust manifold, then you detach various hoses, wires and other stuff. Then supporting the motor you remove the engine mounts and "Float" the motor. Brilliant!

Float the motor means that it sits atop a conveyance, at an angle, where you can access the crankshaft pulley, which requires removing and replacing a bolt that needs 200 ft pounds of torque.

I'm not finished yet.... then you remove the valve cover, the timing chain cover, and the alternator and AC belts.

While you've got this mess apart you remove the water pump, remove the timing belt, and hopefully you were wise enough to get new timing belt tensioners to replace the old ones.

If the camshaft assembly seals have failed you have to replace them, HOPEFULLY the camshaft does not have a score in it from the previous seal. Otherwise you remove the head and take it down too, replacing perhaps the head and camshaft assy.

Put the blasted thing back together, making sure that align it properly. Otherwise you'll damage the valves as the DOHC 1.5 liter motor is an "interference fit" motor. If you do it all right you get about 100,000 miles more running time.

F--k Honda Motor Corp and their stupid parts placement. I work in manufacturing and know how to build things. You do not put parts that routinely fail into places where they cannot be removed easily. That pisses off customers.


The Toyota Yaris uses a timing chain, mounts the oil filter in the front of the motor, mounts the alternator on the top of the motor, mounts the radiator where it too can breathe. Plenty of room with which to work.

The nicest part is that while the car is hardly perfect it is quite reliable.

I have a good reason to be prejudiced against the Honda FIT. I think it's high time that I took some photos for the benefit of some here.

Originally Posted by ddongbap

I am TOTALLY down for one of those Fiestas.

Have you driven a Ford lately, and more importantly, have you accompanied one to the dealership lately?

Gene

[ddongbap]

Originally Posted by GeneW

I own a Honda, a 1990 CRX DX. 190,000 miles. Out of warranty.

Last time I changed the oil on it I managed to rip the engine temp sensor plug off of the temp sensor. Yeah, you have to have a hoist to change the oil on a CRX, or have very skinny arms. Honda put the oil filter in the center of the block, right under the intake manifold. Swell, I had to replace the sensor boot in the street in the middle of winter. Fun.

You see, Ddongdap, in order to change that filter I had to lean over the car, balancing myself on the fender, and reach around the intake manifold. I didn't quite make it.

I've also changed the alternator and the radiator.

To remove the alternator you need to remove the driver side wheel and the CV joint. Alternately you can remove part of the engine cooling system. The last time I changed it I had to hammer out the bottom mounting pin. Honda thoughtfully cadmium plated it to reduce rust but they did not savvy that bolts scuff, removing the cadmium. They also did not realize that the position of the alternator causes road spray to deposit onto the pin. The combination causes the pins to rust into place. I needed a two pound hammer and a drift pin to pound out the mounting pin.

During my search for parts I discovered that the CRX for that year used one of four different kinds of Nippon-Denso alternators. I could not find one and had to have the one I had rebuilt. This was the FOURTH ALTERNATOR that this car consumed during its life. Apparently Honda put the car so close to the edge with respect to its electrical requirements that the hatchback defrost eat alternators. Brilliant!

To remove the radiator on CRX models with AC it is necessary to remove the manifolds for the AC condenser. Some idiot at Honda decided to sandwich the radiator between the AC manifold and the condenser assembly. To remove the radiator the first thing you do is remove the R-12 refrigerant from the AC system. Brilliant! Then you have to partially remove the AC system to remove the radiator. Brilliant!

I also had the celebrated "Honda Starter Relay problem". Honda in the late 1980s used carbs. When they shifted to their first FI systems rather than use an integrated relay they put in an extra one, in the passenger compartment near the driver's left knee. Your friendly Chilton manual does not specify this so I partially ripped out the fuse assy looking for it. Finally found the damn thing behind the change drawer.

The Mashuta produced relays were defective and had annular (ring shaped) cracks in their solder. This problem produced a condition where the Honda would start cold, run fine but when you parked it for short periods of time would fail to start (the relay wouldn't work to turn on the fuel pump). I spent a year dicking with it. Finally discovered an online article, removed the relay and reflowed the solder. Before I knew that this was the cause I had had to replace various electronic and hydraulic parts - I did not understand the problem you see.


Oh, no, Dongdap, I'm not quite finished yet. I saved the best for last.

Every 100,000 miles you have to change the timing belt. To change the timing belt in a Honda of that vintage your first remove the exhaust manifold, then you detach various hoses, wires and other stuff. Then supporting the motor you remove the engine mounts and "Float" the motor. Brilliant!

Float the motor means that it sits atop a conveyance, at an angle, where you can access the crankshaft pulley, which requires removing and replacing a bolt that needs 200 ft pounds of torque.

I'm not finished yet.... then you remove the valve cover, the timing chain cover, and the alternator and AC belts.

While you've got this mess apart you remove the water pump, remove the timing belt, and hopefully you were wise enough to get new timing belt tensioners to replace the old ones.

If the camshaft assembly seals have failed you have to replace them, HOPEFULLY the camshaft does not have a score in it from the previous seal. Otherwise you remove the head and take it down too, replacing perhaps the head and camshaft assy.

Put the blasted thing back together, making sure that align it properly. Otherwise you'll damage the valves as the DOHC 1.5 liter motor is an "interference fit" motor. If you do it all right you get about 100,000 miles more running time.

F--k Honda Motor Corp and their stupid parts placement. I work in manufacturing and know how to build things. You do not put parts that routinely fail into places where they cannot be removed easily. That pisses off customers.


The Toyota Yaris uses a timing chain, mounts the oil filter in the front of the motor, mounts the alternator on the top of the motor, mounts the radiator where it too can breathe. Plenty of room with which to work.

The nicest part is that while the car is hardly perfect it is quite reliable.

I have a good reason to be prejudiced against the Honda FIT. I think it's high time that I took some photos for the benefit of some here.




Have you driven a Ford lately, and more importantly, have you accompanied one to the dealership lately?

Gene

I'm gonna be honest. I skipped the entire humbug after the first quote.

And to retort about the Ford part. The Fiesta was designed and built and w/e in Europe. Which, AFAIK, runs independently (for the most part anyway) from their US counterpart. So they're not as bad. Mbenz is horrid in Europe.

Even those Aussies get a badass i6 turbo engine by Ford.



Btw, I sorta skimmed through that.
1) its ONE car.
2) you could have just bought a brand new engine.

So okay, you're from the east coast, and you're pretty one sided. Is it safe to assume all people from your area is one sided? Even though most people probably had model or rebuilds in the last 10 years?

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by ddongbap

Btw, I sorta skimmed through that.
1) its ONE car.

Well, you are correct about that, it was one car. One car that was horribly laid out by Honda Japan. I've poked my nose into others and have seen similar disasters.

Not to worry, I've looked under the hoods of modern GMs, Fords and Chryslers. They're even worse. I watched two guys make a month long project out of a head gasket in 1990s era Pontiac Grand Am.

They refused to touch my Honda. "Too much time".

In contrast they did the MacPherson struts in a lady's 1990 era Camry in just thirty minutes. Both sides, no alignment required. That was what sold me on Toyotas.

Originally Posted by ddongbap

2) you could have just bought a brand new engine.

Bought a brand new car instead.

Originally Posted by ddongbap

So okay, you're from the east coast, and you're pretty one sided. Is it safe to assume all people from your area is one sided?

I have strong opinions about how stuff is laid out in a product. It's my professional attitude about manufactured goods.

What do you do for a living, Dongdap? You ever make anything professionally?

Originally Posted by ddongbap

Even though most people probably had model or rebuilds in the last 10 years?

Like I said, we'll see when I get to the Honda Stealership.

Gene

[ddongbap]

Originally Posted by GeneW

Well, you are correct about that, it was one car. One car that was horribly laid out by Honda Japan. I've poked my nose into others and have seen similar disasters.

Not to worry, I've looked under the hoods of modern GMs, Fords and Chryslers. They're even worse. I watched two guys make a month long project out of a head gasket in 1990s era Pontiac Grand Am.

They refused to touch my Honda. "Too much time".

In contrast they did the MacPherson struts in a lady's 1990 era Camry in just thirty minutes. Both sides, no alignment required. That was what sold me on Toyotas.




Bought a brand new car instead.



I have strong opinions about how stuff is laid out in a product. It's my professional attitude about manufactured goods.

What do you do for a living, Dongdap? You ever make anything professionally?



Like I said, we'll see when I get to the Honda Stealership.

Gene

Ugh. This is going to go no where.

Can't debate with someone who's close minded.

Btw, do you get mad when your meal isn't fast enough at McDonalds?

What do you do for a living, Dongdap?

I'm a hustler baby, I just want you to know.

and please, its ddongbap. get it right, son.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by ddongbap

Can't debate with someone who's close minded.

Now what do you mean by "close minded"? You've piqued my curiosity.

Gene