ABS brakes / Would you buy a Yaris without them?

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by PK198105

i agree with you but most driving schools teach you to pass a driving test not actually what to do when things go wrong or how to spot and avoid putting yourself in a situation that requires you to rely on the electronics.

I agree with you completely, and am proud to say I don't work for a school like that. My company is constantly on the government to shut down schools that are just in it to get some quick money and not teach you anything.

What I could accept is cars being equipped with them standard but give the driver the possibility to take them off without having to resort to pulling fuses, bypassing or other things that could have been easily solved with a switch.

It would not be a bad idea I suppose.

Same thing with the TPMS system, if you don't do a walk-around before getting in your car you are not following the proper driving technique.

Something we teach!

At the point when you need to have everything laid out before you, you simply become a passenger and not a driver, thats my mentality.

The only reason I don't get the hate for ABS (I am all for the hate for parallel park assists, rear cameras and blind spot sensors, etc) is that the ABS does something that you WANT to happen. You don't want the brakes to lock up. Yes, if you drive well, you never need it. But if it ever happens (no one's perfect) I kind of want the computer to let me know when the brakes are locking.

Of course, if the ABS comes on when it shouldn't like another poster said, that's a problem as well.

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by PK198105

pI mean if your ABS is constantly kicking in , maybe you should ask yourself :"what am i doing wrong?" i

I agree with this, even though it's kind of besides the point.

To whomever that said:" Do you have facebook/gas gauge/video editing/etc". You cannot compare technology that is used by an individual as a tool (facebook, OBD codes, pvr's) to technology that effectively takes the user out of the loop (traction control, abs, esc). Once a machine makes the decisions for the user it is no longer a tool but a replacement and the user becomes neutered. A gas gauge doesn't make a decision for you it merely informs you that your fuel level is low, it is a sensor and not a brain.

First off, it was a response to someone who said "why do you want computers to do everything for you?". Computers do many things for us, and are usually very helpful. So deriding someone who likes ABS as someone who needs a computers help is a strawman argument.

What you are saying is in fact a much better argument, in that the ABS takes control away from the user. However, all ABS does is prevent the wheels from locking. Something most people don't want to happen. When you need ABS, it's in an emergency situation, and most people (myself included) don't want to have to think about the exact threshold of when the brakes may or may not lock up. There's more important things to do.

You might be an awesome driver who never needs the ABS. I never, ever need it when I'm driving by myself. But what that means is that we don't have the practice of feeling the threshold. Honestly, how many times do you practice braking as hard as you can without the wheels locking up?

Fact is, in normal road conditions (re: no loose surfaces) studies have shown ABS to be a faster way of stopping your car than trying to not lock the brakes yourself. And in an emergency, why the hell would you even want to THINK about how to manipulate your foot?

[Yaristeve]

Originally Posted by carnageehw

Fact is, in normal road conditions (re: no loose surfaces) studies have shown ABS to be a faster way of stopping your car than trying to not lock the brakes yourself.

Based on my experience, I just cannot agree with this "fact". On a dry, clean surface, the ABS in my Lexus kicked in as soon as it sensed some slipping. Threshold braking requires slight slippage to take maximum advantage of both rolling and sliding friction. That is the nature of rubber tires.

At the time, my tires were NOT locked up and screeching and sliding; they were, however, still turning and "singing". Yet, the ABS kicked in (I felt the buzzing in the brake pedal) and the car suddenly felt like it was actually accelerating and the front end came up.

If you ride motorcycles, you learn that you don't just grab a handful of brakes. Hard braking requires you to gradually but very quickly build pressure. The same applies for cars. Yes, if you all you know how to do is stomp on the brakes, you will lock up your wheels and ABS is for you. But if you gradually (but quickly) build pressure, weight transfer to the front will increase your front tire traction and you will stop faster than an ABS equipped car on a dry clean surface. And this takes practice, practice, practice.

Originally Posted by carnageehw

And in an emergency, why the hell would you even want to THINK about how to manipulate your foot? .

I think you're missing PK198105's point: if you approach driving the way you should be, you shouldn't find yourself in "an emergency". And in the event you get sucked into an emergency, practicing proper driving technique makes avoidance almost second-nature. As others have said, all these nanny tools have made it too easy for people to become lazy and not think about what they are doing and have become a hindrance to people who actually enjoy driving well...

[SAV912]

Originally Posted by Yaristeve

I think you're missing PK198105's point: if you approach driving the way you should be, you shouldn't find yourself in "an emergency".

The problem therein rises that not everyone approaches driving the way they 'should' be. That's when emergency situations arise, and not everyone is seasoned enough to get out without a scratch every single time. It just isn't in the cards.

-C

[Mikeey01nzl]

Originally Posted by PK198105

even wiping our own butt.

Yep the've done that too

[RedRide]

In the early days of mandated seat belts, the common mantra from the ignorant was "I know how to drive, why do I need seat belts"?
Some always fail to factor in other drivers etc.
Some things never change.

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by RedRide

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

I agree wholeheartedly. But those who advocate ABS on motorcycles claim in a panic situation the impulse is to grab a handfull of brakes and swerve. This puts the bike on the ground immediately. Which can be a good or bad thing. In my experience it IS true you tend to do that. Im not sure ABS allows a biker to brake and swerve simultanously. But it might be a benefit.

Cars dont need it certainly. ABS is just an insane mindset forstered off on us by manufacturers, statasticians, and the government. And they arent stopping at ABS either. These morons believe they can make cars that avoid accidents all by themselves. They are completely out of their minds and no one can stop them unless no body buts their shit.

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by bronsin

I agree wholeheartedly. But those who advocate ABS on motorcycles claim in a panic situation the impulse is to grab a handfull of brakes and swerve. This puts the bike on the ground immediately. Which can be a good or bad thing. In my experience it IS true you tend to do that. Im not sure ABS allows a biker to brake and swerve simultanously. But it might be a benefit.

Cars dont need it certainly. ABS is just an insane mindset forstered off on us by manufacturers, statasticians, and the government. And they arent stopping at ABS either. These morons believe they can make cars that avoid accidents all by themselves. They are completely out of their minds and no one can stop them unless no body buts their shit.

My bike is too old so I don't have ABS, but there are definitely times that I wish it did. I've never laid it down by giving it too much rear brake, but I certainly have been close. I thought for sure I was either going down or hitting a car, but then I just decided that both were horrible options due to the nature of the accident in front of me so I just got it together and balanced those brakes perfectly for a stop that almost sent me over the bike

I was a new rider then so admittedly I was still figuring things out, but I still find there are times ABS would be nice ... and I could definitely see it more for the bigger bikes as it seems to me like you can feel it faster and make you corrections much more quickly on a lighter more responsive bike.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by Zaphod

My bike is too old so I don't have ABS, but there are definitely times that I wish it did. I've never laid it down by giving it too much rear brake, but I certainly have been close. I thought for sure I was either going down or hitting a car, but then I just decided that both were horrible options due to the nature of the accident in front of me so I just got it together and balanced those brakes perfectly for a stop that almost sent me over the bike

I was a new rider then so admittedly I was still figuring things out, but I still find there are times ABS would be nice ... and I could definitely see it more for the bigger bikes as it seems to me like you can feel it faster and make you corrections much more quickly on a lighter more responsive bike.

As someone who has ridden bikes for 40 years, I have learned the biggest piece of the safety puzzle is YOU, not some gadget on the bike. One is only as safe as he (or she) allows themselves to be.

[carnageehw]

Originally Posted by bronsin

As someone who has ridden bikes for 40 years, I have learned the biggest piece of the safety puzzle is YOU, not some gadget on the bike. One is only as safe as he (or she) allows themselves to be.

No one is arguing otherwise.

[Zaphod]

Originally Posted by RedRide

In the early days of mandated seat belts, the common mantra from the ignorant was "I know how to drive, why do I need seat belts"?
Some always fail to factor in other drivers etc.
Some things never change.

I maintain that if you really do know how to drive, your ABS will never kick in during daily driving even on snow
In a sudden, emergency situation, who honestly uses a high degree of finesse on the brake pedel?

You make some very excellent points. If you drive right, you should never even feel them kick on.

Sure there are things that one can't really anticipate or avoid easily, and we're all human and prone to make a mistake here and there.

I will say one thing though, I don't know if finesse is the right word, but I do prefer to focus on all of the details, brake, gas, clutch steering, etc ... in emergency situations as it traditionally calms me and focuses my attention on what needs to be done.

Having said that though, you'll never hear me complain that my Yaris has ABS because I've really only activated it being purposefully sloppy out of curiosity. Though that doesn't mean it could never happen in an emergency situation

[MadMax]

Don't blame the automobile manufacturers, blame the lousy drivers that think they can do everything (eat, talk on the phone, etc) instead of actually driving! They are the ones causing the development of all of this safety equipment.

By the way, as always noted on Top Gear, if you want to see what safety features cars will have in ten years' time, look towards the Mercedes S class. It has a history of being the first to have devices that will ultimately end up on all cars, such as crumple zones, three-point seatbelts, pre-accident seatbelt pretensioners, collapsible steering column, strengthened occupant cells, ABS, driver's airbag supplemental restraint system, and a preemptive safety system. It is considered one of the safest cars on the road!

Cheers! M2