Shopping for Fuel Efficiency? Kelley Blue Book Suggests Waiting

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

Problem is, is that the old Metros would never even come close to passing today's safety standards. Even if you were to deactivate all of the airbags in a Yaris, the Yaris would still be far safer than an '88 Metro. In fact, a Smart ForTwo is far safer than an '88 Metro.

I'm calling for people to make informed choices when making their car purchases, but you seem more interested in defending the Yaris at any cost.

There is no such thing as an '88 Metro. There were. however 85 - 88 Chevy Sprints. And in '88 there was a model called the Sprint Metro, with an EPA rating of 54 city, 58 hwy. My Yaris' window sticker read 29/35.

You are probably thinking about the 89-94 Geo Metros. The '95-'99 Geo Metros and 2000 Chevy Metro, with their multiple air bags and perimeter reinforcement cages would likely have no problem meeting modern safety regulations.

But let's consider the significance of that for a moment. You are claiming that you have driven your Yaris 104k miles. I've driven mine 50k miles in the last year. I've driven the Sprint 370k miles, as well. 50k of those in the last 12 months. And I'm just as alive and healthy as you are. What has that additional safety actually bought you? In comparison to my driving experiences... nothing. Less than nothing, actually, since I have had a few "Oh my God! I'm going to die!" moments in the Yaris. None in the Sprint, however. The Yaris is a death-trap in ice and snow compared to the Sprint.

But safety aside, the Metro also has no power, no creature comforts, much less space, and rides like a tin can.

OK. So you are pulling out all the stops to defend your Yaris. Hey Bro, chill out. I'm a Yaris owner too. And I would definitely recommend the Yaris to others, even though it is far from the safest car on the market.

You just can't compare the mileage of a Metro to any modern car for those reasons.

Sure I can compare the mileage. My advice to you is not to drive your Yaris on the ice, and if you do, please take extra care. But if you do die on the ice, rest assured that I will try to consider that statistic in an objective manner.

The Yaris is, relatively speaking, a gas guzzler, compared to the Sprint Metro. That's on an objective scale.

On a subjective scale, I feel safer in the Sprint, although improved safety was a factor in my decision to purchase the Yaris. (I've been forced to admit that I was wrong on that count.)

-Steve

[Kal-El]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

I'm calling for people to make informed choices when making their car purchases, but you seem more interested in defending the Yaris at any cost.

There is no such thing as an '88 Metro. There were. however 85 - 88 Chevy Sprints. And in '88 there was a model called the Sprint Metro, with an EPA rating of 54 city, 58 hwy. My Yaris' window sticker read 29/35.

You are probably thinking about the 89-94 Geo Metros. The '95-'99 Geo Metros and 2000 Chevy Metro, with their multiple air bags and perimeter reinforcement cages would likely have no problem meeting modern safety regulations.

But let's consider the significance of that for a moment. You are claiming that you have driven your Yaris 104k miles. I've driven mine 50k miles in the last year. I've driven the Sprint 370k miles, as well. 50k of those in the last 12 months. And I'm just as alive and healthy as you are. What has that additional safety actually bought you? In comparison to my driving experiences... nothing. Less than nothing, actually, since I have had a few "Oh my God! I'm going to die!" moments in the Yaris. None in the Sprint, however. The Yaris is a death-trap in ice and snow compared to the Sprint.


OK. So you are pulling out all the stops to defend your Yaris. Hey Bro, chill out. I'm a Yaris owner too. And I would definitely recommend the Yaris to others, even though it is far from the safest car on the market.


Sure I can compare the mileage. My advice to you is not to drive your Yaris on the ice, and if you do, please take extra care. But if you do die on the ice, rest assured that I will try to consider that statistic in an objective manner.

The Yaris is, relatively speaking, a gas guzzler, compared to the Sprint Metro. That's on an objective scale.

On a subjective scale, I feel safer in the Sprint, although improved safety was a factor in my decision to purchase the Yaris. (I've been forced to admit that I was wrong on that count.)

-Steve

It's not about defending the Yaris. I'm just saying that it's apples and oranges comparing a 1988 economy car to a 2008 economy car.

Today's cars have put on a lot of weight over the ones from the '80's. Mainly do to tons of added safety features as well as convenience features that today's buyers demand to have. Not to mention the ever increasing sizes of the cars. Also, Americans tend to not want a car with less than about 100 HP. The Yaris's 106 HP is the lowest powered car outside of the Smart car and Mazda 2 (in the US). All of these things have led to a greater difficulty in obtaining the high efficiency as such cars as your Sprint.

Also another thing to keep in mind is the change in EPA ratings. You claim the Sprint was rated at 54/58. Impressive no doubt and I bet you can achieve such numbers. Before '08, the Yaris was rated 34/40 and then lowered to 29/35-36 with the new rating system. So the Sprint would have been the equivalent of about 49/54 or so today (about where a Prius sits).

[sbergman27]

Originally Posted by Kal-El

It's not about defending the Yaris. I'm just saying that it's apples and oranges comparing a 1988 economy car to a 2008 economy car.

It was you who shifted the conversation in this direction. My original post was more about people foolishly buying Ford F-150s and then whining about gas prices. Not about how everyone should buy a Sprint Metro. They couldn't do it, anyway. There are not enough to go around. (Prices on the used market have sky-rocketed again. At the moment, I suspect I could get thousands if I were interested in selling... which I'm not.)

Today's cars have put on a lot of weight over the ones from the '80's.

So have their drivers. In the US, at least.

Mainly due to tons of added safety features

You advertise that you have 104k on your Yaris. I've driven mine 50k. I've driven my Sprint 370k. Between us, we've driven over a half a million miles in the cars we're talking about. I've driven over 3.5x as much in the Sprint than you have in your Yaris. And I'm just as alive as you, despite several "Oh my god I'm going to die!" moments in the Yaris (but not the Sprint).

Do you test your air-bags weekly or something? How do you know they will even work when called upon? It has been demonstrated that people drive differently depending upon the perceived safety level of the car they are in. They are more reckless when in SUVs. They take more chances when wearing safety belts. Even more when wearing shoulder belts. Air-bags make the situation even worse.

I was listening to an "Are We Alone" radio program the other day in which a safety expert noted that mandating the mounting of a steel spike at the center of automobile steering wheels might cause an increase in driver deaths, but would likely do wonders for pedestrian fatalities.

When I bought the Yaris, my real reason was that I was itching for a new car. (For once in my life.) But my major rationalization was safety. Considering my current 70k/yr driving pattern, it was a convenient rationalization. But somewhat surprisingly, I honestly feel safer in the Sprint. It's simply better *not to be involved* in an accident than to have fancy schmancy safety systems that you have no guarantee will work at the moment they are needed.

The Sprint has kept me out of accidents for 370k miles. Has a shorter stopping distance than even the ABS equipped Yaris. Etc.

Also, Americans tend to not want a car with less than about 100 HP.

My fellow countrymen are a fat and stupid lot, who insist upon big engines, yes. Tell me something I don't know. My Yaris is over-powered, IMO.

Also another thing to keep in mind is the change in EPA ratings. You claim the Sprint was rated at 54/58. Impressive no doubt and I bet you can achieve such numbers.

I'm well aware of that change. As I do not do much city driving, I can't really fill you in on that. IIRC, back when I did, I was seeing something like 47 mpg. But don't quote me on it. That was a long time ago.

I can tell you quite a lot about current highway driving, however. At 70 mph, with no wind, I get about 54 mpg. At the 55 mph speed limit which was in effect in 1988, the Sprint does an actual 62 mpg.

Before '08, the Yaris was rated 34/40 and then lowered to 29/35-36 with the new rating system. So the Sprint would have been the equivalent of about 49/54 or so today (about where a Prius sits).

I take a particular interest in the Prius. Certainly, both the Prius and the Sprint blow the Yaris out of the water for fuel economy. The Sprint beats the current, 3rd generation, Prius by about 3 mpg for highway driving (which is the kind of driving I do) according to fueleconomy.gov. Comparing my actual results to the Prius' fueleconomy.gov numbers yields a 6 mpg difference in the Sprint's favor.

But for something *really* impressive, see the 2000-2006 Honda Insight. 61/70 mpg city/hwy. I don't own one. But I get the impression (from participating in forums, with my skeptic's hat on) that they really can manage that 70 mpg on the highway. The 1st generation Insight was an amazing car.

-Steve