Look Out Toyota, Here Comes The Good Enough Chinese Car

[david_827]

Originally Posted by bronsin

For years now we have been at the mercy of domestic and foriegn cars making us buy cars with features we do not want. Electric windows, power mirrors, remote entry, ABS, airbags, automatic transmission the list is endless.

i'm sorry but those are features that want, especially with things like ABS and air bags.

i would definitely pass on a car made in China, but your strong opinion on getting one doesnt surprise me, as your one of the people who would be willing to pay less for a less safe car (as evidenced by the statement quoted above), and if i remember correctly, your the person who thought the spammer selling phones for cheap was real.

[bronsin]

See the post "The Most Dangerous Car in America?"

Even with all those "safety" features you want you're driving the most dangerous car made.

Better to drive defensively if you want to be safe.

But by all means "go for it".

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by bronsin

See the post "The Most Dangerous Car in America?"

Even with all those "safety" features you want you're driving the most dangerous car made.

Better to drive defensively if you want to be safe.

But by all means "go for it".

Re the specific items you listed (not the 'list is endless' part ), the only items that are directly related to safety are the ABS and the air bags. Some people might find the other things you mentioned nice or necessary, but they aren't directly related to safety. People have different things that they want to spend their money on, even while staying within the realm of their car or cars. I don't like paying more than I need to for something that I want or need, but I dislike even more having to buy some feature that I don't want that is 'glommed onto a bundled order' so to speak -- the 'high optioned' local new Toyota inventory you've mentioned in your posts would be an example of this.

[edmscan]

Originally Posted by david_827

i'm sorry but those are features that want, especially with things like ABS and air bags.

i would definitely pass on a car made in China, but your strong opinion on getting one doesnt surprise me, as your one of the people who would be willing to pay less for a less safe car (as evidenced by the statement quoted above), and if i remember correctly, your the person who thought the spammer selling phones for cheap was real.

LMAO .. well said. Nice to see when someone's stupidity comes back to haunt them.

[xnamerxx]

Since no one here has ever had the joy of sitting in a brand new Chinese made vehicle or seeing a crash tested Chinese made vehicle I can tell you my story.

The company I work for has contracts with several firms and one of those firms makes cars in China so we see them from time to time here in the shop. Sitting in a brand new Chinese car isn't like sitting in a car made in Korea, France, Poland, or even Mexico the quality of the materials can appear nice at first but its quickly obvious that it's built down to a cost you can tell because the new car smell isn't what your used to here and we joke around the office that its the new cancer smell because it almost gives you the feeling like your breathing in mercury or lead or something else poisonous.

Well one of the things we also had to do here was demonstrate a 5 mph test, and I'll tell you this unless the quality of the metals that Chinese OEM's use improves I'll never and I repeat that never ride in one. The 5 mph test resulted in FRAME damage so we had to reinforce the front structure so much that it gained a bunch of weight simply to pass the minor accident test.

Just because the Yaris results in more injury claims doesn't mean its a dangerous car, statistics can be very misleading and even more so when someone has an agenda.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by edmscan

LMAO .. well said. Nice to see when someone's stupidity comes back to haunt them.

I recognized the aforementioned phone guy as a spammer. Just because Bronsin happened to be gullible re this 'incident' doesn't invalidate his opinion re what the car industry wants to make us put up with. I feel it is an ad hominem illustration. Some people might feel that including safety features like ABS and airbags on his list might invalidate his opinion re cars. I don't agree with including those items, but I think that is a bit harsh......and I'm more cynical and sarcastic than most people I encounter....just my two cents. Some people might roll their eyes and feel I'm only expressing this particular opinion because I largely agree with Bronsin, but this isn't the case. I like to chide Bronsin about other things, but I don't think anything re the phone spammer is relevant to any other Yarisworld threads.....again, just my two cents.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

Since no one here has ever had the joy of sitting in a brand new Chinese made vehicle or seeing a crash tested Chinese made vehicle I can tell you my story.

The company I work for has contracts with several firms and one of those firms makes cars in China so we see them from time to time here in the shop. Sitting in a brand new Chinese car isn't like sitting in a car made in Korea, France, Poland, or even Mexico the quality of the materials can appear nice at first but its quickly obvious that it's built down to a cost you can tell because the new car smell isn't what your used to here and we joke around the office that its the new cancer smell because it almost gives you the feeling like your breathing in mercury or lead or something else poisonous.

Well one of the things we also had to do here was demonstrate a 5 mph test, and I'll tell you this unless the quality of the metals that Chinese OEM's use improves I'll never and I repeat that never ride in one. The 5 mph test resulted in FRAME damage so we had to reinforce the front structure so much that it gained a bunch of weight simply to pass the minor accident test.

Just because the Yaris results in more injury claims doesn't mean its a dangerous car, statistics can be very misleading and even more so when someone has an agenda.

Niiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiice(sarc). I agree with you, but I also feel that supporting things that are unsafe (the Chinese cars you speak of, removing ABS and air bags from inexpensive world cars like the Yaris (and others)) can be a separate issue (in every meaningful way) from supporting simplicity re non safety issues (hand crank windows, etc.)

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by xnamerxx

Since no one here has ever had the joy of sitting in a brand new Chinese made vehicle or seeing a crash tested Chinese made vehicle I can tell you my story.

The company I work for has contracts with several firms and one of those firms makes cars in China so we see them from time to time here in the shop. Sitting in a brand new Chinese car isn't like sitting in a car made in Korea, France, Poland, or even Mexico the quality of the materials can appear nice at first but its quickly obvious that it's built down to a cost you can tell because the new car smell isn't what your used to here and we joke around the office that its the new cancer smell because it almost gives you the feeling like your breathing in mercury or lead or something else poisonous.

Well one of the things we also had to do here was demonstrate a 5 mph test, and I'll tell you this unless the quality of the metals that Chinese OEM's use improves I'll never and I repeat that never ride in one. The 5 mph test resulted in FRAME damage so we had to reinforce the front structure so much that it gained a bunch of weight simply to pass the minor accident test.

Just because the Yaris results in more injury claims doesn't mean its a dangerous car, statistics can be very misleading and even more so when someone has an agenda.

I drove VW Beetles hundreds of thousands of miles in the 70s and 80s. No ABS. No airbags. No "crush zones", no nothing. The gas tank is right in your lap, theres no engine in front of you to absorb energy in a frontal crash, the brakes are manually adjusted drums all around (no power assist either) and the car is completely directionably unstable.

But at least you are inside something, unlike the motorcycles I have also ridden for a like number of miles over thrity years. Any mistakes by yourself or others results in unpleasentness.

Safety in driving machines begins and ends in your head. Because of things like airbags the public is under the impression they are "safe" in modern vehicles. (airbags result in something called "degloving" as well as amputation to an alarming degree while minimizing other things)

Good luck with that!

[12 yaris]

We will never see one in the states....

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by edmscan

LMAO .. well said. Nice to see when someone's stupidity comes back to haunt them.

See above.

You might not be as smart as you think.

[bronsin]

Originally Posted by 12 yaris

We will never see one in the states....

You assume the Chinese will always make cars you are familiar with.

Unlikely.

[edmscan]

Originally Posted by bronsin

See above.

You might not be as smart as you think.

True .. but given a choice I will take the safety features in the Yaris. Your opinion obviously differs from some .. and I respect that. Sorry for making a comment that may be negative, but your desire to rid our cars of its safety features is in my opinion just plain stupid. Enough said.

I think you will find that your desires will never happen as society demands these features in our cars (whether this is good or bad remains to be seen), and I don't think you will see them being removed anytime soon.

[12 yaris]

Guys,
Who in there right mind would buy this car anyway.
It will never meet saftey standards.
This is like the Yugo,a shit box...

[tooter]

Originally Posted by bronsin

You assume the Chinese will always make cars you are familiar with.

Unlikely.

Just like the Japanese and the Koreans, the Chinese have a very steep
learning curve. I predict that in the coming years the quality of their cars will rival all the others.

I was around in the 60's when "Made in Japan" was a joke. Now their products are sought after the world over for their high quality.

That's how business works.

[xnamerxx]

Originally Posted by bronsin

I drove VW Beetles hundreds of thousands of miles in the 70s and 80s. No ABS. No airbags. No "crush zones", no nothing. The gas tank is right in your lap, theres no engine in front of you to absorb energy in a frontal crash, the brakes are manually adjusted drums all around (no power assist either) and the car is completely directionably unstable.

But at least you are inside something, unlike the motorcycles I have also ridden for a like number of miles over thrity years. Any mistakes by yourself or others results in unpleasentness.

Safety in driving machines begins and ends in your head. Because of things like airbags the public is under the impression they are "safe" in modern vehicles. (airbags result in something called "degloving" as well as amputation to an alarming degree while minimizing other things)

Good luck with that!

And...Car's in the 70's didn't have to pass safety regulation, i've been in a bad wreck in a car built in the 60's and came out mostly unscathed except some lifelong neck pain and I've had a family die in a accident in a VW bug I'm not comparing a car built 30-40 years ago to a car built today in fact its not even the safety equipment or lack there of that bothers me about Chinese cars they simply don't have the Q/C on materials that makes them scary to me. I've witnessed first hand what crappy materials and a car that was reverse engineered in a minor accident and its frightening to think that this car IS for sale in the US. Yes it was eventually able to pass safety tests but that was only after major reinforcement of the occupant safety cell and even then I wouldn't call the results stellar.

To reiterate my point there is no consistency with the metal that's used to make one car to another because they don't have that level of Q/C of the materials going into it, don't expect a Chinese car to do 200-300k on the chassis it will be well worn out before then.

I don't expect the Chinese quality to get any better there is no war that there recovering from the population is to large to demand better labor conditions and the social difference between the Chinese and Japanese are the reason why the Chinese will likely never get better.

The Japanese will copy something and make a better product easy example were all the knockoff British cars from the 60's and 70's which ended up being better than the cars they were based off, where as the Chinese will copy something to make you look like you have the original product but not pay the price for it ie the huge fake Rolex and Gucci knockoff market in China.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by cali yaris

@ nookandcranny:

Singling out Marin County with an anecdotal story or two is a misrepresentation at best.

I was raised in Marin and still have many, many friends there. None of them give a hoot about "car prestige". Doesn't mean there aren't people like that living there, but your sweeping generalizations are unfair.

Are you trying to suggest with your statistic about BMW ownership that everyone who buys a BMW is buying it for the label? It's a beautifully designed brand, awesome to drive and reliable.

The logic of including everyone in one bucket because of some single fact, statistic or story is just not valid.

/ rant

// Former Marin County Resident

Reply

From a Former Marin County Resident

I agree that there many, many unpretentious people in Marin, and many of them are natives. I would also say that among the wealthiest residents of Marin, many of the most down to earth people are natives. However, I think to deny that our consumer culture is eroding what you describe (and I see as the wonderful Marin of old) is, I feel, somewhat disingenuous. Unfortunately, I think negative effects of or consumer culture are prevalent in other parts of the Bay Area as well.

I think the worst thing about the post you replied to is that it only illustrated a negative about Marin without any of the positives. I am so used to interactions (in person and over the phone) with those who know Marin intimately and know how I feel about Marin that I occasionally forget to shift gears on the internet where the audience has no idea the totality of what is in my head re Marin.

I have great affection for Marin. If I ever moved back to California, I would only live in Marin or within a 40 mile radius of Truckee. Marin is undoubtedly one of the most beautiful suburban counties in the U.S. (and I've seen many of the most beautiful in many parts of the U.S.). Fortunately, much of what makes Marin accessible and enjoyable (trails, parks, etc.) was put into place, IMO, when the government was much less Orwellian. I also think, if you don't have children, you have more options re lifestyle than if you do have children (but this is likely true in many places). Without the potential constraint of school location, you can choose to live in a beautiful, rural part of West Marin and be less affected by regulation and NIMBYism. I can understand that, being a native, you would have even more affection for Marin than I do and would be offended/insulted if someone pointed out a perceived negative without any positives. I apologize for doing that.

I think that natives don't need to 'seek' (for lack of a better term) as much as newbies do. I think this is true of Marin and of other places. Natives have long established ties with people who see them 'inside out' and whether the have 5 dollars, 5 million, or 5 billion or what they do or don't spend their money on. It is immaterial, you almost universally don't care about these things. I think if you are single and childless you can choose your own level of engagement or disengagement at will -- your own level of 'plugging in' -- and it mostly concerns just you.

However, if you (collectively) are a, (for lack of a better term) 'school age family' (any couple with children or single parent with children) some sort of integration (even if the children are home schooled) is pretty much necessary. A healthy aspect of this in Marin is that the weather is so nice so much of the time, and it is so beautiful, that kids can gravitate outdoors. They can enjoy their surroundings, influenced by nature, with great access to their surroundings that has long been in place (as I mentioned before). Marin, and other like places in the Bay Area, used to be more like this. There used to be more unfettered access. As CDPs have become incorporated towns and cities, more regulation and NIMBYism has crept in.

One can avoid this to a certain extent by living in a place like Tam Valley -- close in and unincorporated. You can still have a garage sale whenever you want sans NIMBY regulations. You can remodel your house and only have to deal with the county -- avoiding (IMO) restrictive city issues....but then on weekends in the summertime the extent of the traffic from the 101 exit, past the Buckeye, out to the ocean cannot be adequately described, it must be experienced to be understood. I think there is still less, for lack of a better term 'social real estate stratification' in Marin than in other like places, and that is a good thing.

I come to my perspective, not just from living there, but from spending quite a bit of time there over many years before I ever moved there. I also look at Marin, although not as a native, from a socio-economic perspective similar to that of many natives and residents overall. The town I was raised in, and the town my mother and aunt were raised in (in different parts of the Bay Area) each have a higher median family income 2005-2009 than any town, city, or CDP in Marin County other than Tiburon, Stinson Beach, and Dillon Beach.

DaVinci said that "Simplicity is the ultimate sophistication". I think this applies to Marin and is one of the reasons one sees more 'man made beauty' in Marin than in many other places.....better not to distract from the natural beauty. This is also a positive (but IMO minor) reason one sees so many BMWs in Marin. I don't think most people in Marin own BMWs for down to earth reasons -- including all of the reasons you mentioned. I think most people (not most people you know or are related to, but rather most people in general) in Marin instead own BMWs to fit , to 'keep up with the Joneses', to be perceived as having a certain level of taste and success, and as a cultural accessory.

I also think that Marinites take the foodie culture too seriously, thus the stratification of grocery stores/markets that I eluded to in my reply to Bronsin. I think the line between appreciation and insanity in these arenas that are a part of the consumer culture within Marin, the line of demarcation, is a matter of opinion.

I think that newbies glom onto the foodie culture and the car culture in Marin to feel anchored and if a family (in any way you want to define it -- and all is wonderfully okay in Marin) with children is trying to assimilate these anchors can be, right or wrong, 'some of the grease'. They can also be an extension of the person's station, which I think is part of what Bronsin was eluding to in his post that I replied to.

A personal example of the environment the consumerism has created in Marin -- I was at a meeting a couple of years ago in Marin re a bunch of high school kids who had just traveled to another U.S. state to participate in a charity event. The kids, parents, organizers, etc. were all at this meeting. One of the parents thanked the organizers for "taking the kids out of the bubble" and almost everyone laughed.

Our culture is becoming more corporate, more mobile, and more portable. There is a book called "Next Stop, Reloville: Life Inside America's New Rootless Professional Class that discusses this portability and some of the resulting effect on our culture.

[tooter]

Originally Posted by nookandcrannycar

One can avoid this to a certain extent by living in a place like Tam Valley -- close in and unincorporated.

I highly recommend living in an unincorporated area. My wife and I chose a similar location and have never regretted it.

[nookandcrannycar]

Originally Posted by tooter

I highly recommend living in an unincorporated area. My wife and I chose a similar location and have never regretted it.

Definitely. I used to own a house in another similar town (in the Bay Area, but not in Marin county) that was unincorporated for many years. Then the town incorporated, pushed by a few non native to California 'we know what's best' Harvard grads.

I said to myself, this is not going to end pretty, there is not enough sales tax revenue to fund services......fast forward to now. They are wondering how they are going to pay to repave many roads. I have a feeling the resolution will be a parcel tax levied against owners of any real property. I'm glad I sold that property

Each of our 50 states seems to have some part of the puzzle wrong. I don't know what the answer is. If each state could have the 'don't sweat the small stuff' attitude and part of the natural beauty of California, the academic results of some northeastern states, and nearly everything else about Texas, I would be happy. However, that combination is probably a pipe dream.