Well I guess I have to move now...again!

[DevilGirl]

Originally Posted by djct_watt

To think that if you kill in intruder who is robbing your home, you can go to jail in CA. You have to justify use of deadly force and (it seems) the criminals often have more rights than victims.

Not just in CA. That's in a lot of states. The general rule is that you use only enough force as necessary. And if you think about it, it does make a little sense. Why should you be allowed to kill somone who is just stealing stuff from your home? If they came in and did nothing to your person physically or mentally (i.e., threatened you with bodily harm to the point that you felt your very life was in danger), then your person was still safe. It's only when your life is threatened and there is no other alternative (i.e. run), that you are allowed to use deadly force.

To put it another way, sure a guy comes in to rob you, and you shoot to kill. You've just committed manslaughter. Why should you be held to a different standard just because someone was trying to take a possession that is replaceable? A life is not. Killing is still a crime, there are just some instances when there are mitigating circumstances (i.e. self defense, military at war)

[djct_watt]

Originally Posted by DevilGirl

Not just in CA. That's in a lot of states. The general rule is that you use only enough force as necessary. And if you think about it, it does make a little sense. Why should you be allowed to kill somone who is just stealing stuff from your home? If they came in and did nothing to your person physically or mentally (i.e., threatened you with bodily harm to the point that you felt your very life was in danger), then your person was still safe. It's only when your life is threatened and there is no other alternative (i.e. run), that you are allowed to use deadly force.

To put it another way, sure a guy comes in to rob you, and you shoot to kill. You've just committed manslaughter. Why should you be held to a different standard just because someone was trying to take a possession that is replaceable? A life is not. Killing is still a crime, there are just some instances when there are mitigating circumstances (i.e. self defense, military at war)

Your argument is very well put, and I respect it, but also disagree. I believe that a person has the right to defend their property, and anything less than deadly force is not a deterrent. Let's face it, you get robbed and let the their go, he/she'll probably never get caught unless they make a mistake. You effectively are allowing the theft to occur. However, if you decide to fight back, there is no way of knowing how many intruders there are, how heavily they are armed, or their intentions. If I decide to take action, I'm not going to take any risks to protect someone who should have less rights (as they are encroaching on mine). Imagine I put up an electrified fence and a burglar dies by getting shocked, despite the warning signs. Should I be accountable for his stupidity? I believe (and this is a no win argument) that it should be an assumed risk that you could die breaking into someone's home, and that if you (the burglar) get killed, it's due to your own ignorance. To me it's no different than jumping in front of freeway traffic and trying to blame the driver if he cannot stop. And in that situation, I'd mow down the person than even consider risking my own life trying to swerve.

I had some kid (westerner rich kid with vandalism intentions) break into our house here in Thailand once... We found out who it was and called the cops. In front of the kid and parents, the cop told us to just shoot him on site (a bit extreme, I know) if he's in our property again. I don't think I've ever seen him again and I know he moved out of the neighborhood.

[yarisitis]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

Good grief, I sure am glad I live here!!! I had a biker move in next door, and I made it clear that he simply was not welcome. I spoke to the cops about his presence and activities, and kept track. Eventually he moved out, and now I have a nice lady living there who runs a small plant nursery; much better.

Is there more to this?

Or was it simply the fact that he rode a motorcycle and all motorcyclists must be bad people who will kill you?

[TLyttle]

No, that is a poorly-thought-out conclusion, sir, and I resent its shallowness. I guess I should have called him a hard-core Hells Angel biker, dealing drugs out of his house, is that clearer? Large yard lights, 4am "visitors" (customers), vans unloading various "freight", really knocks down the neighbourhood. My neighbourhood.

My point is that we have a police system that doesn't allow "people who will kill you" any kind of latitude that will lead to that behaviour. We are also taught early on that such behaviour is unacceptable in our society. I guess you see that as an infringement on one's freedoms, eh?

[tomato]

^ you had to say "eh?"

Just kidding

[djct_watt]

Originally Posted by tomato

^ you had to say "eh?"

Just kidding

What's all this aboot?

[TLyttle]

Hawww! Just because we pronounce "about" with an O instead of an A... ;-)


Oh, and I forgot to mention that that the "biker" is back in jail, where he belongs...

[yarisitis]

Originally Posted by TLyttle

No, that is a poorly-thought-out conclusion, sir, and I resent its shallowness. I guess I should have called him a hard-core Hells Angel biker, dealing drugs out of his house, is that clearer? Large yard lights, 4am "visitors" (customers), vans unloading various "freight", really knocks down the neighbourhood. My neighbourhood.

My point is that we have a police system that doesn't allow "people who will kill you" any kind of latitude that will lead to that behaviour. We are also taught early on that such behaviour is unacceptable in our society. I guess you see that as an infringement on one's freedoms, eh?

That's all you had to say.

What came off as poorly thought out and shallow was your original post as it made you look like someone who stereotypically writes someone off simply for what they drive, but I guess that wasn't the case.

It's good to elaborate.

[TLyttle]

Okay, Teacher, I'll be sure to respond in full next time

As far as bikers are concerned, I DO object to the Hells Angel bullies, very much so. At the same time, I also object to those who flaunt the law by driving loud bikes, claiming that "Loud pipes save lives". Lights save lives, not loud pipes, and they know that. They just think it is really cool to stop all conversation when they drive by, better if the go by in herds (bovine reference intended) and stop all talking for a few minutes is better yet. Pure, unmitigated arrogance. If one drove a car that is as noisy as those bikes, one would get a ticket right away, but not bikes. Clear?

[Greenthunder]

Some of those loud pipe arguments are legitimate because sometimes a biker will be passing in my blind spot and I can hear their bike so I can judge where they are at so that I know they are pasing me and not chilling in my blind spot. I always keep an eye out for bikes on the road because they get little respect from other drivers

[djct_watt]

Originally Posted by Greenthunder

Some of those loud pipe arguments are legitimate because sometimes a biker will be passing in my blind spot and I can hear their bike so I can judge where they are at so that I know they are pasing me and not chilling in my blind spot. I always keep an eye out for bikes on the road because they get little respect from other drivers

That biker would need to take classes and learn not ride in blind spots. That's asking to get killed. I used to ride, but it was an unobnoxious bike and it was for commute purposes (and a little fun).

(NSFW)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z_3Rl-MGcJY

[JBougie]

Well.

Not only do I now believe even more that we should cut Cali off the rest of the country and let it float into the ocean (with all the good people moved, and the bad ones left to float away) .... but I don't think I'll ever visit there. Ever.

I really wanted to go there someday too :/

[cali yaris]

Okay, Teacher, I'll be sure to respond in full next time

Good of you to admit you got schooled.

[cali yaris]

but I don't think I'll ever visit there. Ever.

Too bad; you'll miss a lot of amazing, positive experiences.

[tomato]

+1 I wouldn't let our stories scare you away. I have been living in California for a very long time and there is a lot more to it than random acts of violence and petty theft. Just stay away from the bad areas :)