VirginiaTech Killer...

[nsmitchell]

My brother was shot just under the heart when he was 16 during a robbery at the Hardee's he worked at. He almost died. To this day he carries a loaded .357 Magnum with some nasty loads on him at all times. He wont be a victim next time if he has time to react.

Mudbug brings up the point that wheter it's a fertilizer bomb, or a gun, a determined psychopath will kill people. You just can't stop them. The device discussed here may have helped the situation http://www.yarisworld.com/forums/showthread.php?t=5122

[whooppee777]

after this happened i spent a lot of time wondering what i would have done if i had been a student at this school. i decided that i would not run for my own safety, and i wouldnt just help students jump out of windows. i would do everything i could to stop him even if it meant my own life, it would be worth it if i could save even a few people. no bull shit, its what i would have done

[MudBug]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

Oh, so our nation's rate of murders and gun violence has nothing to do with the fact that a 21 year old kid with no credentials can go to a gun show and pick up an AK and some hollowpoints. My bad

Why does it have to be "Gun" violence? Violence is violence, it has nothing to do with the instument of that violence. Maybe you should check out how gun control has worked for the U.K. and Austrailia. I know for a fact that violence is up in both places, the one number off the top of my head is that Armed Assualt is up 44% in Australia since their fairly recent gun ban.

The biggest source of gun related deaths and assualts in this country have nothing to do with the weapon, and everything to do with the culture of the people commiting the crimes. That source is gangs. the Brady Bunch crowd likes to point to the high number of gun assults/murders of young men in this country as part of the reasoning for gun bans, but the majority of those assualts/deaths are directly related to gangs, these are criminals shooting criminals.

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

I try to keep my politics far from the confines of this car forum, but for the sake of a greater understanding of the topic lets let her rip... this whole situation reminded me of why I have always been a believer in strict gun control. If you're even mildly versed in American history you know why guns will never leave the American cultural landscape. This country was founded on musketballs. However, there is also a serious problem with the availability of guns in this country, both black market and "regulated." For example, why the hell are hollowpoints available to the consumer? I cannot understand facts like this, and I think it is enormously hypocritical to stand by acting like I don't understand things like the events at VT when I am surrounded by people (some idiots) with enormous amounts of firepower. I have met people that I wouldn't feel comfortable driving to the store with for fear of them snapping in the five minutes it takes to get there, and yet you go in their bedroom and it is like Eric Harris's closet. How do these people get guns, and more importantly what the hell has to happen to stop it?

So, seriously, you want to be treated like a 5 year old your whole life? Cuz what you are advocating is the same thing. Rules, rules, and more rules to keep us from hurting each other, to keep us from sticking a fork in an outlet, to keep us from walking across the street to pet the crazy dog, to keep us from drinking the draino under the sink.

At what point do you feel you are able to care for yourself without mommy.GOV taking care of you? At what point do you feel the individual should be blamed for their actions and punished as opposed to our culture being to blame, put on trial, and convicted to life without the basic freedoms the Founding Fathers wrote about in the BOR and Federalist Papers?

How do you sleep knowing that guys like me are out there right now? Gun toting lovers of the freedoms this country was founded on, training and participating in practical shooting sports.

I've owned guns since I was 10 years old, most of my friends are the same. That's 34 years with evil guns in my possesion, and I have never shot a single person, not one. The only people I do know that have shot someone are cops, Military, or PMC's though I do know a few civilians that have used guns to protect themselves, and one that used the AR15 he carries in his truck to stop a rape (no shots fired)

you need to be concerned about bad people, not the tools they use, cuz stabbed to death with a screwdriver is still dead.

[MudBug]

Originally Posted by whooppee777

after this happened i spent a lot of time wondering what i would have done if i had been a student at this school. i decided that i would not run for my own safety, and i wouldnt just help students jump out of windows. i would do everything i could to stop him even if it meant my own life, it would be worth it if i could save even a few people. no bull shit, its what i would have done

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing"

Welcome to the mindset of a sheepdog and thanks for thinking of others.

"If you have no capacity for violence then you are a healthy productive citizen, a sheep.

If you have a capacity for violence and no empathy for your fellow citizens, then you have defined an aggressive sociopath, a wolf.

But what if you have a capacity for violence, and a deep love for your fellow citizens? What do you have then? A sheepdog, a warrior, someone who is walking the hero's path. Someone who can walk into the heart of darkness, into the universal human phobia, and walk out unscathed."

[PetersRedYaris]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

Oh, so our nation's rate of murders and gun violence has nothing to do with the fact that a 21 year old kid with no credentials can go to a gun show and pick up an AK and some hollowpoints. My bad.

I try to keep my politics far from the confines of this car forum, but for the sake of a greater understanding of the topic lets let her rip... this whole situation reminded me of why I have always been a believer in strict gun control. If you're even mildly versed in American history you know why guns will never leave the American cultural landscape. This country was founded on musketballs. However, there is also a serious problem with the availability of guns in this country, both black market and "regulated." For example, why the hell are hollowpoints available to the consumer? I cannot understand facts like this, and I think it is enormously hypocritical to stand by acting like I don't understand things like the events at VT when I am surrounded by people (some idiots) with enormous amounts of firepower. I have met people that I wouldn't feel comfortable driving to the store with for fear of them snapping in the five minutes it takes to get there, and yet you go in their bedroom and it is like Eric Harris's closet. How do these people get guns, and more importantly what the hell has to happen to stop it?

Guns are not the problem. If you think think gun control will stop things like this from happening, your wrong. Most gun crimes are committed with illegally purchased guns, and gun control won't take those away. Analogy: Drugs are illegal, billions are spent every year trying to stop them, but if I wanted ANY drug, I could get within a day. It's everywhere and if you want it you can get it.
Secondly, why take away the rights of millions of law abbiding citizens when they did nothing wrong? Maybe we should make alcohol illegal too as more alcohol related deaths were reported last year than gun related deaths.
Lastly, Guns don't kill people, people kill people. These "crazies" will still find a way if thats what they want to do.
It comes down to Americans being lazy, spoiled, bitches with a "Life is so hard/unfair" attitude. Americans above all have the right to be stupid, and sadly, far to many exercise that right. Americans get everything they want, and when they don't, it's Columbine all over again.

[MudBug]

PRY, good bringing up the drug thing. I wrote this in response to this subject just yesterday on another forum

You know Heroin and Cocaine are illegal here in the states, there has been a whole military force built up around fighting the scourge of hardcore drugs use, importation, and sales. Billions of dollars are spent every years and our rights have been stomped on to maintain this "War on Drugs"

Yet........


I can go down town and buy a gram of heroin and an eight-ball of coke Right Fucking Now for less than these drugs cost just 10 years ago.


All those billions of dollars, the militarization of officer friendly, high tech surveillance, and twisting of laws has done nothing but make Cocaine and Heroin easier and cheaper to get, as long as you don't mind breaking the law.

[brickhardmeat]

bigger government and more laws never stops homicidal maniacs or gangstas from getting guns and killing people

as a matter of fact bigger government and more laws hasn't done s*&t to make my life any better

[jdubau55]

You know what really kills me is all you people that say what you "would" have done. That they "should" have done this. That is because you have had days to reflect on the situation. I tell myself that too. Why didn't they rush him? Why did they run? You know why? Cause they were scared shitless.

Your first reaction is to get away. Get safe. Cover your head. RUN! Its complete bullshit when you dog on someone who lost their LIFE because they didn't rush him.

A guy walks into a room and just starts shooting. He gives no warning. By the time you even know whats going on your already being aimed at. When you here a gun shot you don't go running towards it. You duck and cover. It's the first natural response.

Now you might say, well what about the kids that blocked the doors, why didn't they do something. Because when you try to be a hero in that situation you get your ass killed. Perfect example being the professor who blocked the door shut long enough for his student to jump out of the window. What happened to him. He got shot most likely right in the face.

Nothing was to blame here other than a troubled youth. Not gun control laws. This kid had a clean record, proper ID, and a way to pay. Even if they would have waited 15, 20, even 30 days to run a background check and have a waiting period. He would have gotten the 9mm. Simple as that. Stopping blaming this and that for what happened. If anything blame ourselves. Here is a kid who is obviously troubled and yet due to our uncaring society just let him slip through. Im sure no one really tried to have him open up or be his friend. Even his freaking roomates had no clue what kind of person he was. They didn't care. How about quit making up excuses and acknowledge the fact that this is a tragedy and give our support to those who lost friends, family, and loved ones.

[MudBug]

Originally Posted by jdubau55

You know what really kills me is all you people that say what you "would" have done. That they "should" have done this. That is because you have had days to reflect on the situation. I tell myself that too. Why didn't they rush him? Why did they run? You know why? Cause they were scared shitless.

Your first reaction is to get away. Get safe. Cover your head. RUN! Its complete bullshit when you dog on someone who lost their LIFE because they didn't rush him.

Who here blamed the kids? I didn't, I blamed our culture that breeds sheepish qualities in the people.

And I do have an idea how I would react because I've acknowledged that the world is a dangerous place and evil exists, so I have trained for this kind of stuff, including force-on-force training with simmunitions.

Yes, until the day something really happens (IF) I will never be sure, but I can tell you that FOF training is a real mind-screw and you never know what will happen. If it's good training about 30% of the scenarios will require no action, another 35% will be iffy with different ways out. and only 35% being real have-to shoot scenarios. This keeps you thinking and very humble. I've also been able to a scenario actor several other times for a couple training companies, getting to play the bad guy, and it's very easy to spot the sheep in the class. In fact this Friday I get to to play OPFOR for an Executive Protection class. ( I love this best)


And yes, many great stories are coming out of the few sheepdogs and prepared people, and I applaud them, but the majority just allowed themselves to be slaughtered because that is what our culture told them to do.

[jamal1984]

so any reasons why he did this? i hear he hate rich peoples or something.

[ChinoCharles]

MudBug, a high school debate team student would eat you for lunch. Don't argue if you're so dead set in your ways that you have lost the capacity to modify your mindset. Then you're just preaching.

[MudBug]

Originally Posted by ChinoCharles

MudBug, a high school debate team student would eat you for lunch. Don't argue if you're so dead set in your ways that you have lost the capacity to modify your mindset. Then you're just preaching.

What gave you the idea I was debating you? And why would I modify my mindset when I'm right and you are wrong?


So just out of curiosity, let's see if you can "Eat me for lunch"

I'll try to see your side of this, though I hope I can do it without having to find out what the inside of my ass smells like since IMHO the only way I can see this subject the way gun-banner's do is with my head fully inserted in my crap locker.

[ChinoCharles]

What gave me that idea? The fact that you quoted my post before asking me if I wanted to be treated like a 5 year old for life... that was a good start.

Violence is violence, it has nothing to do with the instument of that violence

So a sniper rifle is akin to, say, a butter knife? I could kill you with either, but there is only one I can kill you with from 2000 feet.

Handguns do not blow holes in people that inflict massive damage

A simple Biology course will teach you the delicate balance held at all times within the human body. Sever any of a host of arteries or glands and in mere seconds things are never the same. Not all of these are near the brain stem, which is the part of the CNS you referred to. Blood loss can quickly turn to nerve and tissue damage. This is to mention nothing of the fact that this comment is extremely tacky in a forum thread about a massacre at a college campus involving handguns.

They had no will to survive

Oh, so you were there?

Gun toting lovers of the freedoms this country was founded on

Actually, this country was founded on religious freedom and freedom from government fiscal control. Guns were an accepted reality for Britons making their way to America in the 1700's. An example of this was the duel, a practice that was so engrained in societies of the time that it was not an outrage when Aaron Burr was elected to the office of Vice President after killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. Also, consider the fact that the first American citizens had to protect themselves against uprisings like the Whiskey rebellion as well as angry mobs of Native Americans and it is easy to see why guns became a hot issue when the Bill was drafted. It was out of necessity. Does that same level of necessity continue to this day?

In short, I certainly don't disagree with much of what you said. Yes, American culture is generally "sheepish." Yes, certain well-trained and well-versed Americans such as yourself should certainly maintain their right to own and brandish guns under situations that necessitate it. I feel safer knowing people like you are out there. However, I feel unbelievably vulnerable knowing that people with nothing more than a clean record can go and pick up weapons that are above and beyond what is necessary for self defense. Heck, I don't even sleep well at night knowing this person can get anything at all! A clean criminal record does not dictate the mental capacity to display a firearm. Do we know this by now, or should another VT-like incident happen before we're convinced? Therefore, where is the argument for the status quo? Is it fair to say something needs to change?

[jdubau55]

Originally Posted by MudBug

And yes, many great stories are coming out of the few sheepdogs and prepared people, and I applaud them, but the majority just allowed themselves to be slaughtered because that is what our culture told them to do.

The majority ALLOWED themselves to be slaughtered? Let me make it simple for you. By the time you finish reading what I have wrote here and had time to comprehend it....you would be dead. THATS what happened. The shooter would now be reloading....Im sorry no one thinks that fast with a gun ringing in their ears.

Had you been sitting anywhere near the door...which you would have because the class size was small. You would have been shot before you knew what was going on. Training or not.

[MudBug]

So a sniper rifle is akin to, say, a butter knife? I could kill you with either, but there is only one I can kill you with from 2000 feet.

You know, they are now thinking about banning standard kitchen knives in the U.K. and trying to figure out a "Safe" knife for use in homes and restaurants (just like safety scissors for kids) because they are now the biggest tool used for violence. Bad people will find a way to do their bad guy stuff, where do you stop?

A simple Biology course will teach you the delicate balance held at all times within the human body. Sever any of a host of arteries or glands and in mere seconds things are never the same. Not all of these are near the brain stem, which is the part of the CNS you referred to. Blood loss can quickly turn to nerve and tissue damage. This is to mention nothing of the fact that this comment is extremely tacky in a forum thread about a massacre at a college campus involving handguns.

I've seen the studies, read the ballistics reports and I know how it works. Unless hitting the area I mentioned, handguns poke about a .5 - .75" hole though the body that blood leaks from. A human body generally holds about 5 liters of blood and can lose about 1 liter without serious damage. Lose 2 liters and a person will go unconscious and soon after the organs start failing. My point was that most of the time even if a person has been shot they can still fight... if they have the will to do so.

And why is this information tacky? I'm passing on important facts that everyone should know. Your chances of surviving being shot by a handgun are very good as long as you don't just lay down and die. This info takes some of the fear out of it. I'm not advocating getting shot, just taking some of the mystery out of it.

BTW, only about 30% of those shot with rifle calibers survive the experience. The velocity of rifle caliber bullets cause explosive damage in the body, it's a completely different story.

Oh, so you were there?

The reports coming out state that many of the people were just lined up and shot. Tell me, what would you do if a bad guy that had you and ten other people lined up and started shooting people? Just stand there and let it happen? or turn and fight?

Actually, this country was founded on religious freedom and freedom from government fiscal control. Guns were an accepted reality for Britons making their way to America in the 1700's. An example of this was the duel, a practice that was so engrained in societies of the time that it was not an outrage when Aaron Burr was elected to the office of Vice President after killing Alexander Hamilton in a duel. Also, consider the fact that the first American citizens had to protect themselves against uprisings like the Whiskey rebellion as well as angry mobs of Native Americans and it is easy to see why guns became a hot issue when the Bill was drafted. It was out of necessity. Does that same level of necessity continue to this day?

You don't really understand what 2A is about.

The majority ALLOWED themselves to be slaughtered? Let me make it simple for you. By the time you finish reading what I have wrote here and had time to comprehend it....you would be dead. THATS what happened. The shooter would now be reloading....Im sorry no one thinks that fast with a gun ringing in their ears.

Had you been sitting anywhere near the door...which you would have because the class size was small. You would have been shot before you knew what was going on. Training or not.

This is what the reports are saying, many were lined up and shot.

This is what fighting back looks like.

[ChinoCharles]

You know, they are now thinking about banning standard kitchen knives in the U.K. and trying to figure out a "Safe" knife for use in homes and restaurants (just like safety scissors for kids) because they are now the biggest tool used for violence. Bad people will find a way to do their bad guy stuff, where do you stop?

Not sure, but I know where you can start.

I've seen the studies, read the ballistics reports and I know how it works. Unless hitting the area I mentioned, handguns poke about a .5 - .75" hole though the body that blood leaks from. A human body generally holds about 5 liters of blood and can lose about 1 liter without serious damage. Lose 2 liters and a person will go unconscious and soon after the organs start failing. My point was that most of the time even if a person has been shot they can still fight... if they have the will to do so.

There is more to the body than blood. Leak some urea for a few seconds and come back and tell me how you faired. Better yet, how about a nice tiny lung puncture. Those are no biggy. Just because the damage isn't fatal doesn't mean its reversible.

And why is this information tacky? I'm passing on important facts that everyone should know. Your chances of surviving being shot by a handgun are very good as long as you don't just lay down and die. This info takes some of the fear out of it. I'm not advocating getting shot, just taking some of the mystery out of it.

Do I have to explain why any argument for liberal gun laws following a school shooting topic is tacky? You're not the only shooter here, I promise you... but you're the only one posting like this in this thread.

The reports coming out state that many of the people were just lined up and shot. Tell me, what would you do if a bad guy that had you and ten other people lined up and started shooting people? Just stand there and let it happen? or turn and fight?

I'll tell you what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't sit here from my desk chair and speculate about the bravery of the victims based on the fact that he managed to get to so many of them before he killed himself. Handing down generalized judgements on dead college students is definitely on my list of things to try and avoid in life.

You don't really understand what 2A is about.

I don't operate from the viewpoint of someone who has been around guns for 30 years. I'm much more open minded than that. What I do understand is the basis of this country and the basics of its history. Tell me this nation still needs a standing militia today and I'll point to two Nimitz-class aircraft carriers sitting off the coast of Iran right now that tell me we have plenty of firepower already.

[MudBug]

Do I have to explain why any argument for liberal gun laws following a school shooting topic is tacky? You're not the only shooter here, I promise you... but you're the only one posting like this in this thread.

I think maybe you need to look at the person that started down this road. My original post was a response, not a tangent starter.

There is more to the body than blood. Leak some urea for a few seconds and come back and tell me how you faired. Better yet, how about a nice tiny lung puncture. Those are no biggy. Just because the damage isn't fatal doesn't mean its reversible.

medicine is amazing these days.

I'll tell you what I wouldn't do. I wouldn't sit here from my desk chair and speculate about the bravery of the victims based on the fact that he managed to get to so many of them before he killed himself. Handing down generalized judgements on dead college students is definitely on my list of things to try and avoid in life.

These are called AAR's, After Action Reports, and discussing what happened and how it could have been avoided is a good thing.

I don't operate from the viewpoint of someone who has been around guns for 30 years. I'm much more open minded than that. What I do understand is the basis of this country and the basics of its history. Tell me this nation still needs a standing militia today and I'll point to two Nimitz-class aircraft carriers sitting off the coast of Iran right now that tell me we have plenty of firepower already.

2A has nothing to do with with the standing army... other than the fear the Founding Fathers had of them.

2A is about an armed populace for fighting tyranny from both without and within. In other words, invasion on our soil, or a tyrannical government.

Self defense wasn't even a consideration since at the time of the drafting of the Constitution and BOR they couldn't even imagine a time when the natural right for a person to defend himself would be taken away. Up to that time even the most evil of governments allowed it's people a means of self defense. For example... While the kings of Europe didn't allow the ownership of swords and armor by the serfs, they did allow them to own a knife up to 12" long for self defense (A handgun by todays standards). What 2A did was guarantee that the people would be allowed to own Swords and Armor (or the modern equivalent military arms) to protect themselves from the Tyrants Army if it came to that.

[jdubau55]

Whats matters here really is that this was a tragedy. How bout everyone make nice and show your support tomorrow by wearing maroon and orange. Even if you do think the victims were sheepish. Show some respect for what happened.