Ignition vs. Roll start?

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by Bluevitz-rs

Roll starting a manual is no different than down shifting. Put it in 1st or 2nd and let the clutch out, don't touch the throttle and the car starts. No electrical energy required.

Plus for the hypermilers out there, you're saving gas because you don't have to regenerate the energy lost in the battery from using the starter.

Unless they're the sort that shuts off their motor at every traffic light that detains them for more than 7 seconds, or whatever the magic number of seconds it was that they've equated to save that .002 cents...at the risk of getting to buy a starter and battery a little bit sooner.

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by 1stToyota

Unless they're the sort that shuts off their motor at every traffic light that detains them for more than 7 seconds, or whatever the magic number of seconds it was that they've equated to save that .002 cents...at the risk of getting to buy a starter and battery a little bit sooner.

I'm coming up on 60k miles with the OEM battery and starter despite using them several times per day. What is the magic number that they should blow up at, do you think? Tell us, oh doomsayer!

[1stToyota]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I'm coming up on 60k miles with the OEM battery and starter despite using them several times per day. What is the magic number that they should blow up at, do you think? Tell us, oh doomsayer!

Well l'il sugarcoater, please tell us what causes a starter to fail...from usage? I'm sure you're ready to deny and debunk with some more of that 1.5 million miles of recorded and hidden fuzzy math of yours!

[Rick]

Engine-off coasting is not always a safe thing to do. It's not always an unsafe thing to do. It's very situational. If you have doubts about it's safety in a give set of circumstances then don't do it. I don't always do it. I generally don't bother in the cold winter months because keeping a hot engine is problematic. I don't bother if DFCO will work, but DFCO isn't an option on the longer coasts because it scrubs off too much momentum. On the longer coasts if the situation allows (I.E. nothing at all to potentially interact with) I pop it into neutral, key back one click until the engine spins down, and then key on again. When the coasting is over with I just put it back in the proper gear for the vehicle speed, release the clutch and drive on. No drama whatsoever. Some passengers haven't even noticed when it was done. (they weren't sleeping)

The law prohibiting it, if there is one where you are, is rooted in the bad old days when cars were less agile and much much less reliable than they are now. It's not so relevant any more. Heck, until very recently it was illegal in St Paul, MN for anyone but Police and Fire to have red vehicles. Just an old, old law that no one bothered to enforce or repeal.
According to a friend in law enforcement, short of a confession or an eyewitness testimony from a passenger, you could never get a conviction for that anyhow.

On wearing out the starter:

I'm not sure that obsessive killing and restarting of the engine with current starter technology is cost effective in the long run but I'm not going to crap on someone who chooses to find out. How will we ever have any data on that if no one tries it?

[sbergman27]

Engine-off coasting is not always a safe thing to do. It's not always an unsafe thing to do.

What about that time that it seemed safe, but suddenly something totally unexpected happened and it wasn't, and you and your family were killed in the terrible accident that resulted?

Safety isn't about what you expect. It's about what you don't and can't expect. And it only takes once. Think about it.

World energy usage, from fossil fuels, is about 400 exajoules per year. That's equivalent to about 3.2 trillion gallons of gasoline per year. About 100,000 gallons per second. The Yaris uses about 1/30th of a teaspoon of gasoline per second at idle. About 2 thousandths of a millionth of the average world rate of consumption. And, of course, the difference between coasting in 'D' and coasting with the engine off is effectively a fraction of that 1/30th of a teaspoon. Just the difference from engine braking. You can tap the accelerator from time to time to maintain speed, remaining in DFCO most of the time. I'm going to guess that the difference comes out to be about 1/300th of a teaspoon per second. (This assumes that engine braking is costing you about 10%. Works out to about a 3 mph/sec deceleration with your foot off the pedal. Season to taste.) Is it really worth it to save 1/300th of a teaspoon per second? 1/4000th of a gallon per minute?

-Steve

[BailOut]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

Is it really worth it to save 1/300th of a teaspoon per second? 1/4000th of a gallon per minute?

Oil extraction, processing, transportation, refinement and usage are all ecological disasters of an epic scale, and the human fallout from all of it (oppression, war, displacement, etc.) is absolutely catastrophic.

The less each of us uses of it, and the more responsibly each of us uses it, the less the world will need each day. The less the world needs each day the less pressure there is on the whole human and ecological systems.

The way I see it each of us is either part of the problem or part of the solution, and by reducing my demand for oil I feel that I am not part of the problem.

All the scaremongering and fuzzy math (the output of an equation is only as good as the input, and you continually miss a huge chunk of the input) in the world changes none of this.

----------

We know that some of you don't care for hypermiling but, frankly, I am getting sick and tired of the scare tactics and gloom and doom coming out each and every time anyone posts anything about a hypermiling technique.

You don't see us FE types parading into the Performance forum and bashing speeding or track days or spending huge amounts of money for minuscule gains. You don't see us pestering the Cosmetic forum about the things we think are silly, or making fun of how much money is spent on those types of things.

We expect the same in return here in the Fuel Economy forum. If you have nothing positive to contribute to a thread then please spend your time elsewhere. If you can't stomach conversations about hypermiling then please spend your time elsewhere.

This is indeed the Fuel Economy forum,and hypermiling is a large part of that. Please get over it or move on.

[yarrr]

Originally Posted by BailOut

You don't see us FE types parading into the Performance forum and bashing speeding or track days or spending huge amounts of money for minuscule gains. You don't see us pestering the Cosmetic forum about the things we think are silly, or making fun of how much money is spent on those types of things.

We expect the same in return here in the Fuel Economy forum. If you have nothing positive to contribute to a thread then please spend your time elsewhere. If you can't stomach conversations about hypermiling then please spend your time elsewhere.

Sorry to butt in, but -

People DO bash speeding threads. Going to the track and modding your car is safe and legal, but if you feel the need to bash, go ahead. Turning your vehicle off is not safe, and not legal in most states as has been pointed out. It seems the only person in this thread that "can't stomach" the conversation is you, as everyone else is staying on topic and bringing up valid points which you choose to ignore.

[tomato]

OK, let's everybody take a deep breath, in fact, I'm gonna lock this thread temporarily while you all cool off.

Let's see what happens in a couple of hours, OK? Thanks.

[jhsouders]

Originally Posted by sbergman27

And then there's steering... and added distraction... and delay in getting the engine going and the transmission back in gear should you unexpectedly need it. The list goes on...


You cannot possibly make that claim with any certainty. And it's very likely not true. I'd like to see some concrete evidence in support of that claim.


Unsafe driving practices are unsafe driving practices. No matter how you want to want to gloss over them. Pointing out the added danger incurred by the hypermilers, and others who have to share the roads with them, is not, by any means, "sensationalizing" the matter.

There are reasonable fuel saving practices... which are, in general, good for safety, as well. And then there are foolish practices which annoy and endanger the hypermiler and others. Fortunately, the reasonable, safe, and non-annoying ones also yield the bulk of the actual FE benefits.

-Steve

Wow Steve, No evidence is required to state that no accidents have been caused by hypermilers, there is plenty of evidence to show of other driving methods causing accidents... aka drunk driving, falling asleep at the wheel, driving aggressively. But driving passively, or hypermiling is not one of them.

Hypermiling is much safer than the other driving methods i have previously stated, why are you ragging on it so much huh?

Hypermiling is all about the getting the most MPG out of your car without jeopardizing safety, we are not trying to get ourselves killed.

[yarrr]

Originally Posted by jhsouders

there is plenty of evidence to show of other driving methods causing accidents... aka drunk driving, falling asleep at the wheel, driving aggressively. But driving passively, or hypermiling is not one of them.

That's because there's no blood/breath test for smugness.

I like the fact we're still ignoring the fact that turning your engine off in motion is illegal in most states.

[jhsouders]

Originally Posted by yarrr

That's because there's no blood/breath test for smugness.

I like the fact we're still ignoring the fact that turning your engine off in motion is illegal in most states.

It may be illegal, but there is no way to prove that turning off your engine is indeed dangerous when you know what you're doing. Power steering doesn't matter at highway speeds, and you have about 5 pumps on the breaks before you lose those, on the highway you hardly ever use breaks anyway. For all the electronics, blinkers, and such, just turn your key back to the on position and you have it.

There really is no evidence that its dangerous to do so, or even any way for them to catch us in the act. As one person said, we can do it with passengers and they don't even notice it.

[fmicle]

Originally Posted by yarrr

That's because there's no blood/breath test for smugness.

I like the fact we're still ignoring the fact that turning your engine off in motion is illegal in most states.

Does that make a hybrid illegal?

[Canuck]

Originally Posted by fmicle

Does that make a hybrid illegal?

When tha gas engine goes off, full power is still applied by the electric. It's the shutting off of all power sources while in motion that is illegal.

[dingbat]

Interesting thread. Got me thinking about some things.

What does the extra wear an tear on the car translate to in barrels of crude? If the life of the starter, trany, etc. is shortened, how much energy does it take to manufacture, transport, and install those parts? Is it less than the amount saved by this practice and how much less?

If shutting the engine off when coasting does increase the risk of accident, what is the percentage of people doing this that will end up in an accident? Will the gas savings of all the other folks who don't end up in an accident off-set the equivalent cost in crude of the tow truck, police cruiser, medical emergency vehicle, being run to and from the scene for the one that does? The cost of replacement parts, installation of those parts etc......?

[dingbat]

Originally Posted by Rick

Nope, It's more like someone in a gunfight with a revolver. While he only has six shots before he has to reload (bump-start the engine), if he can't solve his immediate problem in six shots he really shouldn't be attending gunfights (shouldn't be driving).

Poor analogy.
Never underestimate a man with a wheel gun.


With a little practice and a speed loader, even a mere mortal can put a revolver back in play fairly quickly.

[127.0.0.1]

Originally Posted by BailOut

I'm coming up on 60k miles with the OEM battery and starter despite using them several times per day. What is the magic number that they should blow up at, do you think? Tell us, oh doomsayer!

real info on starters and how long they last.

it is how long the copper contacts last.

which is usually around 110,000-160,000 miles on a long-trip dd
and 70,000 - 100,000 miles on a short trip dd
---------------------------------------
replacing the contacts (which are 20 bucks) the starter
should last past 350,000 miles.

[Bluevitz-rs]

Originally Posted by 127.0.0.1

real info on starters and how long they last.

it is how long the copper contacts last.

which is usually around 110,000-160,000 miles on a long-trip dd
and 70,000 - 100,000 miles on a short trip dd
---------------------------------------
replacing the contacts (which are 20 bucks) the starter
should last past 350,000 miles.

And if you own a torch and a brass rod, you can braze the worn part, fill it down and it'll outlast the life of the engine.


The starter contacts died on my old '85 Honda when it only had 60 something thousand Km on it. My dad brazed the contacts, and it now has 348000km on it. I don't know why they don't just make them out'a brass to begin with? Oh, wait, they'd never need to sell you a new $300 starter.

[yarrr]

Originally Posted by dingbat

Interesting thread. Got me thinking about some things.

What does the extra wear an tear on the car translate to in barrels of crude? If the life of the starter, trany, etc. is shortened, how much energy does it take to manufacture, transport, and install those parts? Is it less than the amount saved by this practice and how much less?

If shutting the engine off when coasting does increase the risk of accident, what is the percentage of people doing this that will end up in an accident? Will the gas savings of all the other folks who don't end up in an accident off-set the equivalent cost in crude of the tow truck, police cruiser, medical emergency vehicle, being run to and from the scene for the one that does? The cost of replacement parts, installation of those parts etc......?

Take out the ifs, and I agree 100%. Don't forget if you're turning your engine off, you're already at 40+ PSI in the tires - combined with no engine, I'm betting bailout&co hit 0 about 20-30 feet after a stock yaris. This is what is called "common sense" and if you use it, you realize just about every hypermiling "technique" has a chance of costing you your life at worst, and more money than you're saving on gas at best.

Originally Posted by Loren

I don't get extreme with it. I don't drive slower than the flow of traffic, and generally don't accelerate slower than they typical "slow poke", I don't run red lights, and... what was this thread about? Oh yeah... I don't shut off the ignition in my normal driving. To me, it's far more trouble than it's worth for daily driving.

This is safe sane hypermiling. Saving gas, no chance of killing people, nice stuff all around, no?

Much past that, its just a game and a gamble if you are going to save any money.