Dear KCALB....

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by ZING

Can you elaborate on that gene? I would really like to know your take on this :)

I was being "trite". Let's just leave it with my pithy answer, because said "superiority" is a personal decision and not something one can make for everyone.

Gene

[staticorex]

Ha. I'm serious about it though. I've been a capitalist all my life. But recently I've been noticing many Europeans are living much better than I thought. Add to that the recent string of events in this country and I'm just not sure anymore. For every American who tells me it's better here there is one telling me the opposite.

Originally Posted by GeneW

said "superiority" is a personal decision and not something one can make for everyone.

Which is why I'm curious to see KCALB's answer. :p

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by staticorex

Ha. I'm serious about it though. I've been a capitalist all my life. But recently I've been noticing many Europeans are living much better than I thought. Add to that the recent string of events in this country and I'm just not sure anymore. For every American who tells me it's better here there is one telling me the opposite.

Which is why I'm curious to see KCALB's answer. :p

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...s-1609258.html

They're not doing well.... not in the slightest. Especially Germany.

Gene

[staticorex]

But it seems as though they are in recession now because we are. I was hearing that the Euro middle class was living with many of the same material things the US middle class was in the last decade or so. This was something I was always told was untrue before. It just seems like America was far better from 1900-1950, but from 1950-now we've been in decline while Europe has slowly but steadily gotten better. But then I still read how their unemployment rates have and still are far above ours and when you can't find a job in France/Germany ect that you literally cannot. Not like here where "I can't get a job" means I can only get a job at Walmart or Mcdonalds.

[staticorex]

^I'm not disagreeing, but why not?

[staticorex]

Well I would agree about Communism. But Socialism isn't as harsh. Also it seems like here the corruption makes all the wealth at the top while everyone else is left with nothing. That being said I am still a capitalist. But all my volunteer work at local shelters and my under-grad years of studying politics and world history has me questioning just how much I actually know. But I'm kinda threadjacking KCALB's thread. It's technically ask him. Maybe I should start a separate thread for this and just let him answer here??

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by staticorex

But it seems as though they are in recession now because we are.

...not exactly. The Europeans have been slowly losing their standard of living since the cost of oil rose in the 1970s. They've lost more manufacturing work to Asia (and the US) than the US itself has to Asia.

Case in point has been the trend towards reducing the number of hours per week which are worked. Does anyone imagine that reducing your labor output magically makes you more prosperous over the long run? If the State raises your wages then the prices of goods also eventually rise. Who does this hurt if not the people who work for a living?

Originally Posted by staticorex

I was hearing that the Euro middle class was living with many of the same material things the US middle class was in the last decade or so. This was something I was always told was untrue before.

Americans have always had more land than Europeans. We don't have that same "Class" issue going on in the US, with old money owning gigantic chunks of land while ordinary people have a "parcel".

We had more oil because the US is one of the largest producers of oil in the world.

Where the Europeans have it "good" is that they don't send their military on adventures all over the world. That Imperial routine is mighty expensive.

Originally Posted by staticorex

It just seems like America was far better from 1900-1950, but from 1950-now we've been in decline while Europe has slowly but steadily gotten better. But then I still read how their unemployment rates have and still are far above ours and when you can't find a job in France/Germany ect that you literally cannot. Not like here where "I can't get a job" means I can only get a job at Walmart or Mcdonalds.

If the State sets a "minimum income" for people, rather than having them work at Wal-Mart or McDonald's, what sort of life do they live?

Gene

[staticorex]

^ That's all the kind of stuff I've read and heard before hence why I've been a capitalist. I guess the big problem for me is it's all the same stuff I've been hearing my whole life, and when you look at the crazy evangelicals or the crazy Muslim extremists (or any extremist group for that matter) they always seem to believe what they believe because it's all they've ever known. I just want to be sure my views are correct and not just "all I've ever known".

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by staticorex

^ That's all the kind of stuff I've read and heard before hence why I've been a capitalist. I guess the big problem for me is it's all the same stuff I've been hearing my whole life, and when you look at the crazy evangelicals or the crazy Muslim extremists (or any extremist group for that matter) they always seem to believe what they believe because it's all they've ever known. I just want to be sure my views are correct and not just "all I've ever known".

We have Europeans who come here. Ask them what it's like. They'll probably tell you what the ones I work with tell me. I work alongside of people from Spain, Italy, Germany and Great Britain. Europe is comfortable, it's safe but there are "challenges". Especially if you're not "well born".

Just last week an engineer from northern Italy and I were discussing calculators. Back in the 1980s when he was in high school he bought an HP for about $400.00 in Lire. Took him "all summer long" to earn it. How much money could a US kid in high school make in three months? More or less than $400.00 dollars? At that same time I made over $1000.00 working minimum wage (lots of OT) in one summer.

I live in a "blue state". Were it not so quiet I would probably move because of all of the statist non-sense that goes on here. We have all sorts of "programs" and special "industrial zones" that grow more weed patches than businesses. Most of my peers left the area years and years ago. The elected clowns have more government programs than Carter has little pills but things never seem to improve all that much.

Meanwhile we have some of the wealthiest people in the US out in the mountains. They live real well. In grotesquely large mansions with kept grounds and loyal staff. We're told that taxes are "graduated" to "make things more equal". Yeah, right.

Gene

[staticorex]

We agree on a lot. But every now and then some European comes over here and tells me how much better it is over there. I just don't know. Either KCALB needs to answer this for me or I guess I'll have to go over there myself and find out first hand. :p

[KCALB SIRAY]

Originally Posted by tomato

What do I automatically smile every time I see another Yaris on the road? Do Yarii have mood elevating effects?

That new car smell you had when you first bought it was a secret government additive that was placed in there upon the build of the car. Even though it may be gone, it's still working in your body, allowing you to get a chubby once you see another Yaris.

Originally Posted by staticorex

Here's a serious question that I've been wavering on for the first time in my life... Which is superior Capitalism or Socialism? :) I don't need what the best possible economy is, just which of these two is better.

sorry, gotta take it over to the political thread

Originally Posted by *MAD DOG*

The results are in.....

In the football you picked 3 winners and your lotto numbers sucked too. Just letting you know, not having a go.

You were supposed to pick the ones in black

Originally Posted by PK198105

to be honest i really doubt that Mikey minds that much lol
he's probably out MILF hunting....gotta do that to myself lol

I'm taking the day off, but I did have a nice conversation last night with one...smokin hot!

[jclo3313]

Is it wrong to want to fall asleep at work? When we were kids they made us take naps during our days, why did this stop?

[Altitude]

Originally Posted by PK198105

because like any other system it is corrupt and unequal. I come from a former communist country and we all hated that system, no matter how hard you worked you would get passed over by some crooked and well connected slacker that would take your place, now i was too young to experience this myself but my parents did. socialism/communism means that everyone is equal but that just in theory in real life it goes against the basic human nature of being better/stronger/wealthier than the other person. Karl Marx had a great theory and a beautiful concept except it was an utopia. none of the present systems are perfect and there will never be one.

If "like any other system it is corrupt and unequal" then that's really not a reason to dislike it....

If you think success under Capitalism is based on merit then you haven't worked in the corporate world at all. Cronyism is a human condition not a symptom of political/social ideology. Have you seen how great the income disparity in the US is these days? I have no problem with people making lots of money but first they must deserve it. Unfortunately that's usually not the case as evinced by the financial sector meltdown that still rewarded those responsible with huge pay and bonuses.

A political/social system is only as "honest" as those that operate within it and seeing as how the majority of people are corrupt or corruptable and ultimately self interested it doesn't matter what tenets or rules apply. In other words, people suck.

[GeneW]

Originally Posted by Altitude

If "like any other system it is corrupt and unequal" then that's really not a reason to dislike it....

If you think success under Capitalism is based on merit then you haven't worked in the corporate world at all. Cronyism is a human condition not a symptom of political/social ideology. Have you seen how great the income disparity in the US is these days? I have no problem with people making lots of money but first they must deserve it. Unfortunately that's usually not the case as evinced by the financial sector meltdown that still rewarded those responsible with huge pay and bonuses.

A political/social system is only as "honest" as those that operate within it and seeing as how the majority of people are corrupt or corruptable and ultimately self interested it doesn't matter what tenets or rules apply. In other words, people suck.

People don't suck, but sometimes people do sucky things.

Did want to mention ONE giant difference between Corporations and Communism. A Corporation might have you killed but they cannot always do it under the color of law. In a communist nation there is no law only political influence.

Gene

[staticorex]

Boo to no answer. :p Alright if I really want an answer I'll create a new thread. :)

[tomato]

Originally Posted by staticorex

Here's a serious question that I've been wavering on for the first time in my life... Which is superior Capitalism or Socialism? :) I don't need what the best possible economy is, just which of these two is better.

Neither is "superior" and the answer depends on where you stand. Are you extremely wealthy? Or are you working class? Are you lower middle class or ... something in between?

To really answer this question for yourself (and remember, the answer that is right for you may not be right for me and vice-versa) you need to study economics. I mean it seriously. Just a basic JC class will help a lot.

I took Econ 101 and Econ 102 (Micro and Macro econ.) , one of them with a "liberal" teacher and another one with a hard core republican, a long time ago, and I pretty much got my answer right around that time. And you know a basic Econ class isn't has hard as people tell you. But seriously, it will help you answer that question for yourself because nobody else can and there is way too much misinformation out there.

By the way, "capitalism" in its purest form hasn't existed in the US in a very long time, I mean in a few decades at least. That's all I can tell ou on a car forum.

[tomato]

Originally Posted by GeneW

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/bu...s-1609258.html

They're not doing well.... not in the slightest. Especially Germany.

Gene

Hello, neither are we! (banks collapsing, BAILOUTS, stock market crashs, trillion dollar deficits in retirement accounts, no health care for many, er., stop me anytime )

[tomato]

Originally Posted by staticorex

But it seems as though they are in recession now because we are. I was hearing that the Euro middle class was living with many of the same material things the US middle class was in the last decade or so. This was something I was always told was untrue before. It just seems like America was far better from 1900-1950, but from 1950-now we've been in decline while Europe has slowly but steadily gotten better. But then I still read how their unemployment rates have and still are far above ours and when you can't find a job in France/Germany ect that you literally cannot. Not like here where "I can't get a job" means I can only get a job at Walmart or Mcdonalds.

I don't agree completely with you (I think the US economy remained strong throughout the 50's, and Europe, right now is having problems as well, well in part because the financial system is kind of intertwined all over the world) but you're still on the right track IMO, and I like the questions you are asking yourself.

My brother lives in Europe. We bought the same japanese cars (his was slightly better, actually). We have similar electronic equipment at home. His standard of living might be higher in some ways (he doesn't spend as much for health care and health insurance, and has way more vacation time than we do) but we have other stuff in the US.

BTW, I was looking for the original comment from PK but I can't find it. Did it get deleted? PK's folks (from what I understand from previous posts), come from a "true communist" country. No fun at all. You don't want that model. But communism is NOT socialism, so let's not confuse everything.

No system is perfect anyway and the little guy pretty much always suffers.

Don't feel bad if KCALB doesn't answer your question, maybe he just wants to stay neutral on that one so he doesn't hurt anyone's feelings

Now, if you'll excuse me, I gotta find my red stapler after I'm done moving my stuff to the basement