Ethanol - 15-20%? - Toyota Yaris Forums

bronsin · 05-05-2010, 06:52 PM

Our government is about to raise ethanol in gasoline from 10 to as much as 20% according to the NY Times today. Automakers are claiming as many as 50% of the cars they have tested with the new higher ethanol content have engine dammage. We need to keep informed on this!

RedRide · 05-05-2010, 07:38 PM

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.

The BP problem in the gulf has begun to educate the public about this, execpt for those who have an adversion to the truth and watch a certian "news" channel that rhymes with box.

Anyway, raisng it a small amount to about 13% or so wiil probably not cause any problems but, raising it any higher will most likely need updated engine EPUs, etc and will be suitable only for engines designed to run on this mixture like "flex fuel" engines do.

swidd · 05-05-2010, 08:11 PM

Oil is like cocaine, addicting. This is like our drug dealers cutting the product with baking soda, or worse, rat poison!

127.0.0.1 · 05-05-2010, 10:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by swidd

Oil is like cocaine, addicting. This is like our drug dealers cutting the product with baking soda, or worse, rat poison!

civilization itself, as we know it, could not exist w/o oil.

deal with the fact that the whole industrialized world needs oil.

Yaris Hilton · 05-06-2010, 03:07 AM

That "50% engine damage" claim is unsupported and unsupportable. The EPA has run tests that found no problems with E20 in cars built since 2000. Toyota at this time only recommends 10%, but I anticipate no problems with a Yaris.

A bit over a year ago I read either here, on Toyota World or on CleanMPG, I forget which, someone's post about experimenting with blends of the standard E10 and E85 to see where the Yaris' ECU ran into mixture control problems due to the leaning effect of added ethanol. He started seeing check engine lights near 50% ethanol.

ddongbap · 05-06-2010, 03:26 AM

Don't they make racing fuel out of ethanol?

djct_watt · 05-06-2010, 06:35 AM

THe Yarii in Thailand are certified to run up to E20 (20% ethanol). I dunno if we have special modification to support it, but the main concerns are ECU fuel mixture ratios, and MAINLY gaskets, hoses, and seals, since high concentrations of ethanol can eat through those kinds of things.

Given that you still ahve a choice, you have to calculate the worst case loss in efficiency vs the cost benefit. In thailand, we have a choice between straight RON 91, 93, E10, E20, and sometimes E85 (which the Yaris cannot run, here, anyway). With an average of about a 6% reduction in price, I lose fuel efficiency of about 2-3%, which means I net a benefit of about 3-4%. Not much. . .

Been running E20 since I bought the car about 6 months ago without any issues whatsoever, besides slightly reduced range and power.

GREAT LINK for more info:
http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...yStudy_001.pdf

djct_watt · 05-06-2010, 06:36 AM

PS the E20 certification only came as of the latest model year (2010). Previous Yarii were "not recommended." Whether that means it's safe or not to run it, I wouldn't know.

STC · 05-06-2010, 08:31 AM

I run RBOB Gas... no Ethanol, ETBE or MTBE additive.

I will be using it as long as I can until Ethanol becomes mandatory here in Central PA. Presently, there are only three gas stations left in my neck of the woods.

http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RBOB

markitect · 05-06-2010, 09:26 AM

15% is pretty common around here and I haven't had any problems.

BUT ethenol is more corrosive to most rubber and plastic then gasoline, the damage they are referring to is damaged components in the fuel system so watch out for fuel leaks in 5 years.

STC · 05-06-2010, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by markitect

BUT ethenol is more corrosive to most rubber and plastic then gasoline, the damage they are referring to is damaged components in the fuel system so watch out for fuel leaks in 5 years.

This is a common misnomer. Ethanol is actually less corrosive than gasoline. Due to its chemical chain, it has the propensity for water condensation. Water condensation on fuel lines, fixtures, and tank components is the problem... especially older cars and carburetor engines...

bronsin · 05-06-2010, 10:01 AM

Hmm I think Ill invent something to add to the gastank which removes the ethanol. Thataway we could get better mpg. MAybe add a tank which catches the ethanol so we can sell it back to Obama for $$$. He'll know what to do with it!

swidd · 05-06-2010, 11:05 AM

So Ethanol is Obama's fault now?

Yaris Hilton · 05-06-2010, 11:34 AM

It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

Zaphod · 05-06-2010, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yaris Hilton

It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

Same here

bronsin · 05-06-2010, 11:41 AM

Yes biofuels are raising the cost of food. They say poor people around the world, who live on slimmer margines than we do, are being affected. If Obama doesnt stop it, who will?

why? · 05-06-2010, 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedRide

The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content.

The BP problem in the gulf has begun to educate the public about this, execpt for those who have an adversion to the truth and watch a certian "news" channel that rhymes with box.

Anyway, raisng it a small amount to about 13% or so wiil probably not cause any problems but, raising it any higher will most likely need updated engine EPUs, etc and will be suitable only for engines designed to run on this mixture like "flex fuel" engines do.

this will hurt big oil, and everyone else. For heaven's sake didn't anyone learn anything when we went to 10% and saw all the food problems?

Going to 20% will make gas even more expensive, and even less energy dense. Meaning you will get worse gas mileage.

Yaris Hilton · 05-06-2010, 11:46 AM

It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.

05-05-2010, 06:52 PM	#1
bronsin Drives: 2009 Base Hatch 2 Dr Auto Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: nj Posts: 4,792	Ethanol - 15-20%? Our government is about to raise ethanol in gasoline from 10 to as much as 20% according to the NY Times today. Automakers are claiming as many as 50% of the cars they have tested with the new higher ethanol content have engine dammage. We need to keep informed on this!

05-06-2010, 08:31 AM	#9
STC "LibertyRides!" View User's Garage Drives: 2010 Yaris 3Dr LB \| 2020 Stang Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: State College, PA, USA Posts: 576	I run RBOB Gas... no Ethanol, ETBE or MTBE additive. I will be using it as long as I can until Ethanol becomes mandatory here in Central PA. Presently, there are only three gas stations left in my neck of the woods. http://acronyms.thefreedictionary.com/RBOB __________________ ~ Mark ~ 2010 Yaris 3-Dr Liftback, 5-Speed Manual, P185/60R 15, Bayou Blue Pearl I Love my YARIS - (Click below to see Gaslog): Most miles Tank: 538 tank/10.148 gal = 53.015 MPG / Most MPG: 54.95 MPG (ethanol) 425 tank/7.73 gal "The evils of government are directly proportional to the tolerance of the people." -- Frank Kent

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05-05-2010, 07:38 PM	#2
RedRide Drives: '09 Yaris carmine red 2d HB Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Middletown, NY Posts: 1,502	The problem is, "big oil" has congress in their hip pocket and they will be the ones to benefit from increasing the ethanol content. The BP problem in the gulf has begun to educate the public about this, execpt for those who have an adversion to the truth and watch a certian "news" channel that rhymes with box. Anyway, raisng it a small amount to about 13% or so wiil probably not cause any problems but, raising it any higher will most likely need updated engine EPUs, etc and will be suitable only for engines designed to run on this mixture like "flex fuel" engines do.

05-05-2010, 08:11 PM	#3
swidd Drives: Yaris HB Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Central Alabama, GOD BLESS AMERICA Posts: 755	Oil is like cocaine, addicting. This is like our drug dealers cutting the product with baking soda, or worse, rat poison!

05-06-2010, 03:07 AM	#5
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	That "50% engine damage" claim is unsupported and unsupportable. The EPA has run tests that found no problems with E20 in cars built since 2000. Toyota at this time only recommends 10%, but I anticipate no problems with a Yaris. A bit over a year ago I read either here, on Toyota World or on CleanMPG, I forget which, someone's post about experimenting with blends of the standard E10 and E85 to see where the Yaris' ECU ran into mixture control problems due to the leaning effect of added ethanol. He started seeing check engine lights near 50% ethanol.

05-06-2010, 03:26 AM	#6
ddongbap Banned Drives: yw calls me douche and racist. Join Date: Aug 2007 Location: hay Posts: 2,183	Don't they make racing fuel out of ethanol?

05-06-2010, 06:35 AM	#7
djct_watt Drives: 2010 NCP91 5spd Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Thailand Posts: 449	THe Yarii in Thailand are certified to run up to E20 (20% ethanol). I dunno if we have special modification to support it, but the main concerns are ECU fuel mixture ratios, and MAINLY gaskets, hoses, and seals, since high concentrations of ethanol can eat through those kinds of things. Given that you still ahve a choice, you have to calculate the worst case loss in efficiency vs the cost benefit. In thailand, we have a choice between straight RON 91, 93, E10, E20, and sometimes E85 (which the Yaris cannot run, here, anyway). With an average of about a 6% reduction in price, I lose fuel efficiency of about 2-3%, which means I net a benefit of about 3-4%. Not much. . . Been running E20 since I bought the car about 6 months ago without any issues whatsoever, besides slightly reduced range and power. GREAT LINK for more info: http://www.ethanol.org/pdf/contentmg...yStudy_001.pdf

05-06-2010, 06:36 AM	#8
djct_watt Drives: 2010 NCP91 5spd Join Date: Nov 2009 Location: Thailand Posts: 449	PS the E20 certification only came as of the latest model year (2010). Previous Yarii were "not recommended." Whether that means it's safe or not to run it, I wouldn't know.

05-06-2010, 09:26 AM	#10
markitect Drives: Yaris Join Date: Oct 2008 Location: Michigan Posts: 199	15% is pretty common around here and I haven't had any problems. BUT ethenol is more corrosive to most rubber and plastic then gasoline, the damage they are referring to is damaged components in the fuel system so watch out for fuel leaks in 5 years.

05-06-2010, 10:01 AM	#12
bronsin Drives: 2009 Base Hatch 2 Dr Auto Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: nj Posts: 4,792	Hmm I think Ill invent something to add to the gastank which removes the ethanol. Thataway we could get better mpg. MAybe add a tank which catches the ethanol so we can sell it back to Obama for $$$. He'll know what to do with it!

05-06-2010, 11:05 AM	#13
swidd Drives: Yaris HB Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Central Alabama, GOD BLESS AMERICA Posts: 755	So Ethanol is Obama's fault now?

05-06-2010, 11:34 AM	#14
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	It's not Obama's fault. George W. Bush promoted it heavily. And it's not just the oil companies lobbying, it's the agricultural interests and the relatively new but powerful corn ethanol interests that have a lot of pull in Congress. The problem is, Congress mandated they've got to make and sell more ethanol than they can dispose of at current gasoline consumption rates when they're limited to a 10% blend. Personally, I've got no problem with the use of ethanol itself, but I think it's stupid to grow food and use it to run cars. The process is inefficient, though they've tuned it now to the point that there's some positive energy output over the petroleum power invested in farming, transporting the grain, producing and dehydrating the ethanol, and distributing it. I hope better biofuel processes will become economically viable soon.

05-06-2010, 11:41 AM	#16
bronsin Drives: 2009 Base Hatch 2 Dr Auto Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: nj Posts: 4,792	Yes biofuels are raising the cost of food. They say poor people around the world, who live on slimmer margines than we do, are being affected. If Obama doesnt stop it, who will?

05-06-2010, 11:46 AM	#18
Yaris Hilton Half a Bubble Off Plumb Drives: 2009 Yaris Sedan Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Bristol, Tennessee, USA Posts: 1,593	It's not Obama's job to stop it. It's Congress's. If you think it should be stopped, you need to be pestering your representative and senators about it. Just like the Midwesterners who're profiting off of this corn ethanol business are pushing them to promote it further. Presidents don't make laws.